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REPORTS 



FROM 



COMMISSIONERS, INSPECTORS, 



AND OTHERS; 



FORTY-TWO VOLUMES. 



-(31.)- 



ELECTIONS— c(mr»»««rf. 
SANDWICH. 



Session 
6 January 27 August 1881. 



VOL. XLV. 



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RE PO RTS 

FROM 

COMMISSIONERS, INSPECTORS, 

AND OTHERS: 
I88I. 



FORTY-TWO VOLUMES:— CONTENTS OF THE 
THIRTY-FIRST VOLUME. 



N.B. — THE Figures at the beginning of the line, corretpond with the N* at the 
foot of each Beport ; and the Figures at the end of the line, refer to the MS. Paging 
of the Vohmet arraxyedfor The Home of Common*. 



SANDWICH ELECTION : 

V [c. 2796.] Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the 
Existence of Corrupt Practices in the Borough of Sandwich. 
I. Report - - - - - - - - -P'J 

' [c. 2796-1.] II. Minutes of Evidence - 29 



Voii. XLV.— Seas. 1881. 



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REPORT 



OS 



THE COMMISSIONERS 



APPOINTED UNDER HEE MAJESTY'S ROYAL SIGN MANUAL 



TO INQUmK INTO THE 



EXISTENCE OF CORRUPT PRACTICES 



IN THE 



BOROUGH OF SANDWICH. 



I.-REPORT. 



9vtttnt$ii to tot^ ftott<>^0 ot VnvliAiMnt tv itCommanli of fQev fiAaitntv* 




LONDON: 
PRINTED BY GEORGE EDWARD EYRE AND WILLIAM SPOTTISWOODE, 

PBINTBE8 TO THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY. 

FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. 



1881. 



[0.— 2796.] PHceBiid, 



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COMMISSION. 



VICTORIA R. 

^tCtOrfa> by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and 
Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith. 

Co Our trusty and well-beloved Willisan Haworth Holl, Esquire, one of Our 
Counsel; Eichard Edward Turner, Esquire, Barrister-at-Law ; and Prancis Henry 
Jeune, Esquire, Barrister-at-Law, greeting : 

©Kbtrfatf the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, of the United 
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, have, by a Joint 
Address, humbly represented imto Us that the E/ight Honourable Sir Robert Lush, 
Knight, one of the Justices of the High Court of Justice, and Sir Henry Manisty, 
Bjodght, one of the Justices of the High Court of Justice, being two of the Judges 
appointed for the Trial of Election Petitions, pursuant to " The Parliamentary Elections 
Act, 1868," and "The Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act, 1879," have 
reported to the House of Commons that there was reason to believe that corrupt 
practices had extensively prevailed at the last election for the Borough of Sandwich, 
and have humbly prayed that We will bo graciously pleased to cause inquiry to be 
made pursuant to the powers of the Act of ParUament passed in the sixteenth year 
of Our Reign, intituled "An Act to provide for more eflFectual inquiry into the 
existence of Corrupt Practices at Elections for Members to serve in Parliament," by 
the appointing of you the said William Haworth Holl, Richard Edward Turner, and 
Francis Henry Jeune as Commissioners for the purpose of making inquiry into the 
existence of such corrupt practices. 

i^noh) pt> that We, in compliance with the prayer of the said Joint Address, have 
authorised and appointed, and do by these Presents, in pursuance of the powers vested 
in Us by the said Acts, authorise and appoint you the said William Haworth Holl, 
Richard Edward Turner, and Francis Henry Jeune, to be Commissioners for the pur- 
pose of making inquiry into the existence of such corrupt practices in the said Joint 
Address referred to. 

Given at Our Court at Saint James's, the Ninth Day of September one 
thousand eight hundred and eighty, in the Porty-fourth year of Our 
Reign. 

By Her Majesty's Command. 

W. V. HARCOURT. 



Q8334. Wt.Fl858. 

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REPORT. 



To THE Queen's most Excellent Majesty. 

We, the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the existence of corrupt practices 
at the last parliamentary election for the horough of Sandwich, submit this our 
Report to Tour Majesty. 

The parliamentary borough of Sandwich is made up of the borough of Sandwich and 
the two parishes of Deal and Walmer, which were added to Sandwich by the Reform 
Act of 1832. Sandwich comprises a compact area of about 766 acres, situated about 
two miles inland and six or seven miles from Deal and Walmer, which two places, 
to all appearance forming one town, consist of a narrow fringe of houses stretching 
along the sea about three miles and covering a space of 1,800 acres. Sandwich is con- 
nected with Deal by railway. The population of the parliamentary borough which in 
1871 was 14,885, is now probably somewhat larger by the increase of Deal and Walmer. 
The number of the constituency upon the register in force for 1880 was 2,116, Sand- 
wich contributing 461, Deal 1,253, and Walmer 311 electors. About a hundred 
names should be struck off for duplicate entries, deaths, and removals, leaving a 
pollable constituency on May 18th, 1880, of about 2,000. 

Sandwich is locally governed by a mayor, four aldermen, and 12 town councillors, 
and the freedom of the borough confers the right to vote on 143 persons, of whom 
the majority reside at Sandwich. Deal is also governed by a mayor and corpo- 
ration, while the affairs of Walmer are managed by a local board. 

The population of Sandwich is of a rural character engaged in no manufacture 
and no special trade. Deal is distinguished by the large number of its inhabitants 
occupied in seafaring pursuits as channel pilots, boatmen and fishermen; with Walmer 
it constitutes a watering place of no great ambition, though provided with a parade 
and boasting a pier. The resident gentry of these places are very few in number, 
while of the tradesmen several conduct a respectable business, but none on more 
than a, moderate scale. 

In Sandwich there are 33 licensed public-houses and beer-houses, in Deal 74 fully 
Ucensed publicrhouses and 14 beer-houses, and in Walmer 21 licensed public- 
houses and beer-houses. 

The following table represents the results of the parliamentary contests since 
1857:— 

General Election, 1857. 



E. H. Knatchbull Hugessen - - Liberal - 547 

Lord Clarence Paget . - . Liberal - 503 

J". McGregor .... Conservative - 822 

J. Lcmg - - - • - Independent - 24 



General Election, 1869. 



E. H. Knatchbull Hugessen - - Liberal - 497 

Lord Clarence Paget . - . Liberal - 458 

Sir James Ferguson - - * - Conservative - 404 

W. D. Levns - . . . Conservative - S28 



Bye-Election, 1859, consequent upon Mr. Knatchbull Hugessen accepting office. 

E. H. Knatchbull Hugessen - - Liberal - 463 

Sir J. Ferguson - - . - Conservative - iSO 



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General Election, 1865. 

E. H. Knatchbull Hugessen - Liberal - 494 

Lord Clarence Paget - Liberal - 477 

W. Capper ----- Conservative - 418 



Bye-Election, 1866, consequent upon Lord Clarence Paget's accepting an appointment. 

W. Capper ----- Conservative - 466 
Thomas Brasaey . - - . Liberal - 458 



General Election, 1868. 



E. n. Knatchbull Hugessen - Liberal - 933 

Henry A. Brassey - , - - - Liberal - 923 

Baron JT. de Worms . • - Conservative - 7i0 



General ElectioD, 1874. 



Henry A. Brassey - - - . Liberal - 1,035 

E. H* Knatchbull Hugessen - - Liberal - 1,006 

Hughes Hallett - . - - Conservative - 764 

M. S. Baillie . - - - Conservative - 6/i 



General Election, March 1880. 



E. H. Knatchbull Hugessen - - Liberal. 

Henry A. Brassey - - - - Liberal. 

Returned unopposed. 



The result of the bye-election on May 18th, 1880, consequent on the elevation to the 
peerage of Mr. Knatchbull Hugessen, was that Mr. Crompton Roberts, Conservative, 
was returned with 1,145 votes, against Sir Julian Goldsmid, Liberal, with 705. 

At the general election in March, 1880, Mr. Crompton Roberts had formed the 
idea of contesting tiie borough, but he was assured by an agent sent to investigate 
the matter, that success against the sitting members would be hopeless, as they were 
much liked, but that it was believed Mr. Knatchbull Hugessen would receive a peer- 
age or a colonial appointment, and that in that case the borough would be sure to 
return a Conservative. On the announcement of the intended elevation of Mr. 
Knatchbull Hugessen to the peerage Mr. Crompton Roberts at once took the field. 
He went to Deal to receive a deputation on the 28th or 29th of April. On the 4th of 
May, having been selected as the candidate, he again went down and began his 
canvass, and on the following day he was joined by Mr. Edwin Hughes, of Woolwich, 
whom he had appointed his agent for the election. 

Mr. Edwin Hughes was recommended to Mr. Crompton Roberts by his private 
solicitor as " the most celebrated electioneering agent of the day." He was, no doubt, 
an agent of great experience and success. He had recently organised the return of 
- Mr. Boord and Baron de Worms, at Greenwich, and of the three Conservative members 
for the City of London. Erom the moment he came to Deal he exercised complete 
authority; he "never," he said, "had a more obedient set to deal with than the Con- 
" servatives at Sandwich,*' and being in the service of a candidate who, to use his own 
words, was " under the impression that an election cost something like 10,000/.,*' he 
probably had never a better opportunity fpr the exercise of his talents. 



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The first step taken by Mr. Edwin Hughes, for which indeed the ground had been < 
prepared before his arrival, was to secure a majority of the public-houses, and with them 
the Httle coteries of customers which each landlord could influence. Seventy-one com- 
mittee rooms in public-houses were engaged in Deal and Walmer, and 18 in Sandwich. 
The chief public-house at Sandwich, and the chief public-house at Deal received 10/. 
each for the use of a committee room, the remainder a uniform sum of ol. In some 
twenty cases these committee rooms were used for meetings or for the transaction of a 
trifling amount of business, but in the majority of instances the engagement of these 
committee rooms was merely colourable. In one instance, a pubKcan having let a 
room to one side, let another to their opponents. In another case a publican let to 
one party the inside of liis house for committees, to the other the use of the outside 
for bills. These public-houses did not average more than 20/. apinual rental value. It 
was attempted at the hearing of the petition and before us, to justify the engagement 
of these houses on the ground that they were needed as stations for bill posting. Thc*^ 
attempt failed before the election judges, and after more prolonged investigation into 
the matter we have no doubt that the taking a considerable portion of these public- 
houses was a colourable means of gaining the votes of their proprietors and of 
influencing the votes of their frequenters. 

From the time of their arrival a vigorous canvass was organised and carried out by 
Mr. Crompton Roberts and Mr. Edwin Hughes, and for this purpose no less than 42 
paid canvassers, at the rate of 6/. each, besides others who were paid by the day, were 
employed for Deal and Walmer alone. The argument chiefly used with effect appears 
to have been that imless the Conservatives were successful it was the last time they 
would ever contest the place. Lists were prepared, called bringing up lists, that is 
to say, Hsts of the voters who would need on the polling day to be looked after 
and brought to the poll. And although it seems that before the appearance of a 
Liberal candidate, the expenditure on flags, which was afterwards carried to an 
enormous extent, did not take place, about 30 flag poles were erected in the flrst 
week. 

On the Liberal side two or three other candidates had been proposed, but had 
declined on being informed that the seat was contested, and that the election would 
probably cost about 2,000/. On Monday May 10th, Mr. Crompton Eoberts having 
been already a week in the field, and time pressing, Mr. Richard Joyns Emmerson, 
who for many years had been the agent of the Liberal party at Sandwich, went to 
London had an interview with Sir Julian Goldsmid, and pressed him to return 
with him at once to Sandwich. Sir Julian, after some hesitation, accepted the invita- 
tion, and accompanied Mr. Emmerson to Sandwich, where he arrived about 7 p.m., 
and was introduced to Mr. James Barber Edwards, the Liberal agent for Deal and 
Walmer. 

We have to report that in the contest which ensued, and which occupied from 
Monday the 10th to Tuesday the 18th of May 1880, there was practised throughout 
the constituency not only indirect bribery of various kinds as herein-after described, 
but direct bribery, the most extensive and systematic. 

We have already mentioned the taking of 89 public-houses on the Conservative side 
as their first measure in the contest or in anticipation of it. In the same way, but to 
a much less extent, and in some cases at a slightly lower price, the Liberals engaged 
committee-rooms in 7 public-houses in Sandwich and 27 in Deal and Walmer ; some 
of these committee-rooms were unnecessary and were not used. 

The Conservative party expended for canvassers and messengers 612/. They further 
expended on clerks and personation agents the sum of 125/., and for boards and board 
boys, 139/. ; in aU 876/. 

On the Liberal side the sum expended at Deal for canvassers, messengers, clerks, 
personation agents, and board boys together was 185/., in Walmer 69/., and for the 
same in Sandwich 50/., making in all 304/. 

The expenses incurred for printing on the Conservative side amounted to 221/. ; on 
the Liberal side the claims made for printing amounted to 115/. 

On carriages the Conservatives incurred expenses to the amount of 221/. The 
claims against the Liberals amounted to 196/. 

The seafaring character of Deal and Walmer suggested a very fertile method of 
expending money for the benefit of voters. 

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The display of flags at elections was traditional in these places, but the practice 
was for a time checked by the legislation on the subject in 1854. On the present 
occasion, however, the two sides vied with each other in extravagant and still 
more extravagant display of colours, till fairly tired out in the rivalry. All as- 
suming to be drapers in the town, and many others whose regular business hardly 
lay in that line, supplied the materials for flags in the greatest profusion, and 
a considerable proportion of the wives and daughter^of the inhabitants were employed 
to make them and to paint inscriptions on them. When made, the flags had to be 
exhibited on poles, and large sums were paid for the hire and purchase of poles. 
The poles had to be erected, and gangs of men, usually at the rate 6f 30*. a pole, were 
employed to erect them. In some cases the hire of ground for poles afforded an op- 
portunity of gratif yiQg voters. In one instance 21. 10s. was paid for permission to erect 
a pole opposite an elector's house ; in another 3/. was received for a similar privilege, 
a sum equal to six years' rent of the garden in which the pole was placed. Ropes were 
necessary to secure the poles, and ropes were purchased in vast quantities. But the 
ingenuity of expenditure did not end here. It was feared that the elaborate structures 
of poles and cordage might be injured by the opponents or perhaps by the friends of 
their constructors, and bodies of men, most of whom possessed votes, were employed to 
watch them. It was impossible to say what time or exertion was given in return for 
this payment, but we did not ascertain that any damage was effected or attempted. 
After the election still further sums were paid for the removal of these poles and 
banners. The total expenditure on the Conservative side on flags, poles, rosettes, and 
all connected with them exceeded 796/., while that on the Liberal side on similar 
objects did not fall short of 660Z. 

A regatta proposed for May 17th received the warm support of the Conservative 
candidate. He subscribed 26/. to its funds, and he further engaged the pier for the 
day for the purpose of throwing it open to the free use of the inhabitants without dis- 
tinction of party. The programme of this regatta, revealing the intended generosity 
of Mr. Crompton Roberts, was sent by that gentleman to the electors, together with 
the circular soKciting their votes, and a form to be filled up and returned in case 
of their wishing to pledge their , support. The regatta was, however, given up on 
account of bad weather, but the fund destined for prizes remained in the hands of a 
committee consisting of four or five Conservative electors. They informed us that 
they considered themselves trustees of the amount in case the regatta should ever be 
held. 

On the Liberal side the absence of a regatta was supplied by a boat painted blue 
(the Liberal colour) and by persons dress^ in blue who perambulated the streets. 
For this display, to which Mr. Edwards, the agent of Sir Julian, consented, 25/. 
was paid, and the item was entered in the list of claims under the title " The Boat 
Regatta." 

We feel compelled, before leaving the subject of the lavish expenditure at this 
election, to direct attention to the personal expenditure of the Conservative candidate. 
In the two weeks during which he was at Deal his disbursements in the town and the 
cost of the living of himself, his family and friends at Deal amounted to a sum of 
about 650/. No part of this amount found its way into the published accounts. 
Por the week during which he was with Lady Goldsmid at Deal, Sir Julian Goldsmid 
informed us that his personal expenses were only 33/. 

We should have considered it to be our duty to have reported more fully on the 
extravagance of the several kinds of expenditure we have mentioned, and which we 
are of opinion in some cases constituted corrupt practices, and its effect upon individual 
electors, were it not that direct bribeiy prevailed at the election iu question to so great 
an extent as not only to place beyond need of further question the character of the 
election, and the character of the constituency, but also in the vast majority of in- 
dividual cases by incontestably establishing the existence of direct pecuniary corrup- 
tion to render it unnecessary to investigate the less direct influence of colourable 
employment. 

It is clear that on the 11th May, Mr. Hughes was preparing the means by which 
bribery on an extensive scale woidd be carried out. The total sum paid by Mr. 
Eoberts, over which Mr. Hughes had control, was 6,500/. Of this sum 600/. was 
paid to Mr. Hughes on the 11th of May, by Mr. Crompton Roberts, by means of a 
cheque drawn to "Mr. Hoare" (Mr. Crompton Roberts' partner in business) "or 
bearer,'* and was with a further sum of 300/. out of other moneys provided by Mr. 



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Crompton Roberts, paid by Mr. Hughes into the Bank of England in the names of 
his clerk and four leading Conservatiyes of Deal. A further sum of 1,400/. passed 
through Mr. Hughes* hands in the following way : — On the 1 1th of May, Mr. Orompton 
Roberts gave to Mr. Hughes a memorandum in pencil, which was in effect an order 
for an UDJimited amount on Mr. Hoare. Mr. Hughes having received this memo- 
randum, took it to London, gave it there to an agent named Home, who conveyed it, 
with a note from Mr. Hughes, to^ Mr. Hoare, received from Mr. Hoare a cheque for 
1,400/. Of this 1,400/., 4(X)/. was paid to Mr. Hughes' credit. The remaining 1,000/. 
had a somewhat complicated history. It was paid by Messrs. Glyn, Mills, Currie & Co. 
by Mr. Hughes' directions to M. M. Bellairs et Fik, bankers at Calais. The agent 
of Mr. Hughes, in Paris, at his request informed a leading Conservative at Deal, 
Samuel Olds, that this sum was standing to his credit at M. M. Bellairs et i^, 
and at the same time the signature of Olds was sent to M. M. Bellairs by Mr. 
Hughes through Messrs. Glyn's. On the 14th of May, Olds went to Calais and 
received the l,uOO/. in a cheque for 281/. and bank notes. He was met at Dover by 
Home, who received the cheque and notes from him, took them to London, changed 
them for gold, and on the 14th of May went down to Deal and gave the gold to Olds. 
From Thomas, Mr. Hughes* clerk, Olds, at various times before the 17th of May, 
received sums amounting to 1,500/. The whole of the 2,500/. thus coming into Olds' 
hands, was given to him for the purpose of its being expended in direct bribery to 
voters, at the rate of 3/. a head, and the whole or nearly the whole of it was so 
expended. The bringing up lists containing as above mentioned 850 names were 
utilised for this purpose. The 860 names were divided into groups and the sum was 
apportioned in various amounts to about 40 persons, who distributed it to the indi- 
viduals in the several groups at the rate of 3/. a head. The 900/. in the Bank of 
England was intended to have been used in bribery, but it was not in fact so used nor 
indeed was it drawn till after the election was over. 

The actual distribution of money to individuals was effected without difficulty. We 
could find only one or two instances in which a bribe was refused. 

We have not found that there was any direct bribery in the Conservative interest 
other than by the expenditure of this sum of 2,500/. just mentioned, except in one or 
two trifling instances. 

On the Liberal side the election agent of Sir Julian Goldsmid for Deal and Walmer 
was Mi. James Barber Edwards, a solicitor ; for Sandwich another solicitor, Mr. 
Bichard J. Emmerson. 

The total stun provided by Sir Julian Gbldsmid, over which Mr. Edwards had 
control, was 1,820/., which was paid to him in the following manner. In the hurry 
of his departure from London with Mr. Emmerson, which took place at an hour's 
notice. Sir Julian left without any cheque-book, and with only two cheques in his 
pocket-book, one on his general drawing account at the London and Westminster 
Bank, and the other on the Bank of England, where he kept an account for certain 
special purposes only, the nature of which was explained by the production of the 
account. Mr. Emmerson told Sir Julian on this occasion that to contest the borough 
would cost between 2,000/. and 3,000/. On the morning of Tuesday, the 11th of May, 
Mr. Edwards asked Sir Julian for money, and at the same time told him that it was 
usual at Peal to have a sum deposited to answer the expenses of the election, and that 
about 2,000/. or 2,500/. would be required. Sir Julian told him it had not been his 
custom to deposit money in advance, and did not then assent to this course, but fiUed 
up aijd gave n\m the cheque on the London and Westminster Bank for 200/. On the 
morning of Wednesday the 12th, Mr. Edwards again applied for money, and as Sir 
Julian had no other cheque he filled up the cheque on the Bank of England for 
320/. and gave it to Mr. Edwards, but requested him as that account was for special 
purposes, to advance the amount, and hold the cheque as a security imtil it should 
be redeemed by Sir Julian by a cheque on his general account, which was afterwards 
done as hereafter mentioned. 

On the evening of the same day Mr. Edwards again told Sir Julian that he should 
require more money promptly to provide for the expenses of the election. Sir Julian 
had no other cheque ; but he wrote on Wednesday night or by the first post on 
Thursday morning to his secretary in London to forward him a cheque-book. As, 
however, that genileman was sometimes absent attending to the business of a relative 
of Sir Julian, whose afEsdrs he also managed. Sir Julian was in some uncertainty as 

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to the time the cheque-book might arrive, and aa it happened that on the Wednesday 
evening Mr. Francis Flint Belsey, a friend and supporter of Sir Julian at Rochester ^ 

had come for the purpose of speaking in the Liberal interest at a meeting at Deal, and 
was about to return to Rochester on the morning of Thursday, the 13th, Sir Julian, 
after the meeting, spoke to Mr. Belsey with respect to the request of Mr. Edwards 
for a prompt supply of money, about 1,500Z., to covot the expenses of the election, 
the fact of his having no cheques with him, and the imcertainty he was in of getting 
any as soon as he might require them, and as he had determined to comply with Mr. 
Edwards' request it was suggested that Mr. Belsey, who was about to return imme- 
diately, shotdd go to Messrs. Foord, at Rochester, and request them to send 1,2001. 
or 1,500Z. to Mr. Emmerson as promptly as they could. Mr. Belsey consented to 
convey the message, and Sir Julian gave him in writing the name and address of 
Mr. Emmerson, to whom the money was to be sent at Sandwich. Messrs. Foord 
were land agents and contractors, and friends and supporters of Sir Julian, at Ro- 
chester, and they had for several years paid his subscriptions, the r^istrations, and 
some private expenses at Rochester, and had also at the election there in April 1880 
paid 800^. for hnn for election expenses. About midday on Thursday, the 13th, Mr. 
Belsey saw Mr. Charles Ross Foord and Mr. John Ross Foord at their office at 
Rochester, and conveyed to them Sir Julian's request. No direction or suggestion 
was made either by Sir Julian to Mr. Belsey, or by Mr. Belsey to Messrs. Foord 
respecting the source whence the money should be obtained, or as to the form in which 
it should be sent. Mr. C. R. Foord went that afternoon to London, drew from the 
London Joint Stock Bank 1,200Z. in gold which he took back with him to Rochester, 
and adding to it SOOl. in gold which the firm had at their office on Friday the 14th 
took the whole 1,500Z. to Sandwich. He was met at the station by Mr. Emmerson, 
and went with him to his office, where they were joined by Mr. Edwards, and Mr. 
Foord then handed over the 1,600Z. to them. Out of the above-mentioned 1,500/., 
200/. was retained by Mr. Emmerson and the other 1,300/. was taken by Mr. Edwards. 
Out of the 200/. so kept by Mr. Emmeraon, 60/. was afterwards on Monday, May 
17th, given by him to Benjamin Longden Coleman, and was by Coleman expended on 
the day of the election in bribing voters with sums from 1/. to 4/. each. The remaining 
150/. was retained by Mr. Emmerson, who had the intention of ultimately handing ^ 
it to Coleman for the fulfilment t>f promises made by Coleman, but this was not done. 

Out of the sums of 200/., 320/., and 1,300/., making together 1,820/. received by 
Mr. Edwards, together with 115/. of his own money, he paid to Edwin Comwell 297/., 
to John Pettitt Ramell 208/., and to Edward Thomas Rose 306/., which sums were 
respectively expended by those persons for the general purposes of the election, 
some of which were illegal but not corrupt ; and to John Thomas Outwin 1,125/., of 
which Outwin expended 75/. upon the hire of 10 public-houses at the rate of 51. each, 
and the remaining 1,050/. in direct bribery at rates varying from 3/. to 5/. a head, 
and Edward Thomas Rose expended about 370/. in the same way, which was, some 
time after the election, repaid to him by Mr. Edwards out of his own moneys. 

It was never brought to the knowledge of Sir Julian that any part of these sums 
was intended to be or was expended in the direct bribery above mentioned. 

In three cases persons interested on the Liberal side expended money of their own 

^ in bribery. Richard Gillow, the son of a brewer at Sandwich, spent in this way about 

70/. or 80/ ; Edwin Hills expended about 48/. ; and Henry Minter Baker, who came 

from Dover for the purpose of voting, and appears to have taken no part in the 

election before the polling day, expended about 38/. 

There was some treating on the Conservative side by canvassers and others, and on 
the Liberal side, especially at Sandwich, the landlords of several public-houses were 
allowed to supply voters with drink, but we did not find that treating prevailed to any 
extent proportionate to the other illegal practices at this election. The superior 
attractions of direct bribery rendered the seductions of treating superfluous. As one of 
the witnesses told us, " the people did not want drink, it was not a question of drink, 
" it was more a question of money than drink." 

On the Conservative side Mr. E. Hughes acted as expenses agent. He returned as 
the election expenses the sum of 3,158/., having, in fact, as has been stated, received 



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from Mr. Crompton Roberts 655OO/. for the purposes of the election^ and haying ex- 
pended 5,6002. 

The list of the returned expenses on the Conservatiye side is subjoined as Ap- 
pendix A. 

The sum of 106Z. ISs. 2d. (personal expenses), in fact, represents items of a 
miscellaneous character, the principal being the sums given by Mr. Crompton S/oberts 
for the purposes of the regatta and certain subscriptions. The real personal expen- 
diture was not returned at all. 

On the Liberal side the agent for election expenses was Mr. Edmund Brown, a 
retired tradesman, who had acted in a similar capacity at several previous elections. 
On the Thursday after the election, Sir Julian Gk)ld8mid instructed his solicitor, Mr. 
George Lewis, to proceed with a petition, a step which Sir Julian had contemplated 
for some time previously. He placed the whole of the election affairs in Mr. Lewis' 
hands, and thenceforwMd in no way interfered either with the settlement of the 
election accoimts or any other matter connected with it. No return of election 
expenses on the Liberal side was made until the middle of September 1880. At the 
trial of the election petition in August, documents, by order of the judges, were handed in^ 
showing the claims made on the Liberal candidate. These claims are set out as Appendix 
B. It will be seen they amount to 2,668/. Against them a sum of about 1,400/. was 
paid partly before and partly after the trial of the election petition. The return of 
expenses subsequently made by the agent is set out as Appendix C. It will be seen 
that as regards Deal and Walmer the returned expenses are 446/. 78. 2d.y and as 
regards Sandwich the returned expenses are 443/. 5^. lid., malring a total of only 
888/. 13*. Id. 

In addition to the returned expenses for Sandwich, which amounted to 443/. 5s. lid., 
Mr. Emmerson escpended in all 149/. 11*. dd. He received from Sir Julian himself 
210/., from Mr. Eoord 200/., and on laying the above claim of 593/. 17*. 8d. before 
Mr. G. Lewis, after the election, he was paid by him against it the simi of 350/. 
making a total of 760/.. It appeared, however, that Mr. Emmerson did not in- 
form Mr. Lewis that he had received the sum of 200/. out of the money brought 
by Mr. Foord (of which he then had in hand 150/.), and it does not appear l^t 
Mr. Lewis paid the sum of 360/., knowing that it or any part of it was in repayment 
of money spent in bribery. 

We find that at the above election 128 persons were guiltv of corrupt practice 
and were guilty of acts of bribery in respect of the votes or other persons. The 
names of the said persons are set out in Schedule I. 

We find that at the above election 1,005 persons were guilty of corrupt practice 
and of acts of bribery in respect of their votes. The names of such persons are 
in Schedule II. The 127 x)ersons in the said list against whose names an asterisk is 
placed received bribes from both sides. 

We fijid that at the above election 48 persons were guilty of corrupt practice by 
way of treating. Their names are in Schedule III. 

We are unable to give certificates of indemnity to the witnesses whose names 
appear in Schedule IV. 

We also desire to call attention to John William Oavell Elliott and Joseph Brown, 
who were proved to have been guilty of bribing various persons, but whom we were 
unable to examine, Elliott having left the country shortly c^ter the trial of the petition, 
and Brown having absconded immediately after receiving a summons to appear before 
us. 

We think it right specially to advert to the conduct of the two candidates at tMs 
election. 

After very carefully considering the facts elicited, we are unable to avoid the 
conclusion that Mr. Crompton Boberts gave a tacit sanction to corrupt practices by 
providing money which he had reason to suspect, and must have suspected, would 
be used for bribery. 

It is dif&cult to doubt that Mr. Crompton Boberts when on the spot and in the thick 
of the contest could have failed to become aware that expenditure, to say the least 
most lavish, was going on all round him, and that the electors whose votes he was 

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seeking to gain were palpably and eagerly open to corrupt influence. The evidence 
indeed happens from a special circumstence to be very clear as to Mr. Crompton 
Roberts* knowledge od the latter point. To a great extent Mr. Crompton Roberts 
canvassed the electors personally. His practice at Sandwich was to carry with him a 
canvass book in which he made notes, and which was afterwards handed to his 
agent, Mr. Cloke, for the purposes of the election. The canvass book for Sandwich 
was produced to us, and we found in Mr. Crompton Roberts' handwriting such notes 
as the following opposite the names of various voters: — ** Paralysed; wants help 
to get change of air or rides out.** ** Wants a better pension, was a warder at the 
gaol at Sandwich." ** Very favourable and poor.** "Promised; wants a little drop.*' 
" Wants to be seen ; cash.** " Wants much assistance ; had much illness in the 
house, half a year's rent at 3«.=32. 18«. 6rf.'* " Wife wants liquoring up.** " Query, 
wife favourable, and been a great sufferer.** " Wife just confined, see.** These entries, 
or some of them, were at least noticed and transcribed by the agents engaged in 
the election. For example, the first appears in Mr. Cloke s canvassing book as " wants 
pay for change of air or rides out/* We do not think it necessary to come to the 
conclusion that Mr. Crompton Roberts intended these notes as direct suggestions 
for bribery to his agents ; but we ttunk they show that Mr. Crompton Roberts knew 
very well that many electors were anxious to sell their votes. • 

On the 11th of May Mr. Crompton Roberts gave to Mr. E. Hughes, who was 
thenjgoing to London, a cheque drawn to- " Mr. Hoare or bearer ** for 600/., and at the 
same time an order in pencil on Mr. Hoare for an unlimited amount. Before and 
after the 11th of May Mr. Crompton Roberts gave to Mr. Hughes cheques for various 
amounts, all of which were cashed in the regular way, appeared in Mr. Crompton 
Roberts* pass book under Mr. Hughes* name, were entered by Mr. Crompton Roberts' 
secretary in Mr. Crompton Roberts* private ledger under the head of election 
expenses, and were credited to Mr. E. Hughes in an account he opened at the branch 
of the National Provincial Bank at Deal. With regard to these cheques a full 
record therefore existed. But the payment of 600/. and the order on Mr. Hoare 
were treated differently. The cheque for 600/. appears in Mr. Crompton Roberts' 
pass book only opposite the name " Hoare,** and in the private ledger Mr. Crompton 
Roberts* secretary entered it not with the other payments under the head of election 
expenses, but in an account which consisted of items relating to a private loan to 
Mr. Hoare, and it never went to Mr. Hughes* credit at the bank at Deal. The 
order on Mr. Hoare, and the money obtained by means of it, never found their way 
into any book of Mr. Crompton Roberts, or any account connected with the election. 
Mr. Hoare informed us that the 1,400^. drawn by means of it would be merely 
debited against Mr. Crompton Roberts in the partnership accounts of the firm. Why 
Mr. E. Hughes carried out these measures of secrecy and was satisfied with the manner 
of placing the funds at his command, is clear n*om his own statement. It was 
because, in his own words, he wished to keep it " as money distinct from the election^ 
" in the sense that it might possibly be wanted for matters that were not strictly 
" legal,'* because " none of that monejr was for the legitimate puiyoses of the 
" election,** because " it was being provided for a purpose that could not be dis- 
" closed." 

It is dif&cult to believe that so clear a purpose in the mind of Mr. E. Hughes had 
not been, in some way, though no doubt not by express words, communicate to the 
mind of Mr. Crompton Roberts, when we find him taking a course just such as Mr. 
Hughes would have desired. In this view we were anxious to obtain from Mr. Crompton 
Roberts an explanation of his own reasons for drawing the cheque for 600Z. to Mr. 
Hoare, and for giving an unlimited order to Mr. Hughes on Mr. Hoare. As to 
the order on Mr. Hoare, Mr. Crompton Roberts' only explanation is that it was 

S'ven at the request of Mr. Hughes. As to the cheque, his explanation is that it was 
»wn in the name of Mr. Hoare, because he was not sure whether there was a 
balance at his bank sufficient to meet it, and he wished Mr. Hoare might see that 
there was sufficient balance. In giving this evidence Mr. Crompton Roberts was 
under the impression the cheque was to order, in which case it must have at least 
passed through Mr. Hoare*s hands. But in fact the cheque was to bearer, so that 
when giving it to Mr. Hughes, Mr. Crompton Roberts cannot have intended it should 
necessarily come under Mr. Hoare*8 eye, and in fact it never so came. It is not easy 
to think tlxat a man of Mr. Crompton Roberts* great wealth would have hesitated to 



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draw a cheque for 6001. on Mr bankers ; and it is the more difficult to beKeve that he 
had any real fear this cheque for 600/. would not be honoured, when, in fact, before 
May 3rd, 6,600/. was standing to his credit on deposit account (which the bankers, 
he said, would use to honour cheques if necessary), on May 3rd, 4,000/. was added, 
and on May 11th, the whole 10,500/. was available to protect his cheques. Further, we 
were not mformed that Mr. Crompton Roberts, though knowing all he must have 
known of the election and the electors at any time inquired of Mr. Hughes as 
to the object for which this money was needed, or as to the purposes for which it 
was applieid. 

With regard to Sir Julian Goldsmid, it appears on his own statement that during 

the contest many tilings were, to his knowledge, being done on his behalf by his 

agents and partisans which were in fact forms of bribery. In a written statement 

r^Eui before us by Sir Julian, he says, " Mr. Emmerson at once telegraphed I was 

•* coming, and I believe the Liberal Association and other party managers did what 

*' they had always been accustomed to do, viz., engaged public-houses, conmiittee- 

** rooms, clerks, canvassers, messengers, &c., ordered flag-staffs, flags, colours, rosettes, 

** &c., &c., of course on my behalf, and without my knowledge, and ample to invalidate 

** any election.*' " After another day's canvassing I began to see how matters stood, 

** and that even the Liberals did not wish me to be elected, but only to make a 

" contest ; and on Friday morning I remonstrated again, as I had done before, about 

" the illegal expenditure, and gross outlay in a variety of ways; for instance, an 

" enormous flag-staff was put up the day before (Thursday) ia front of our house, 

" with some 20 flags, and no end of men to watch it. Mr, Edwards told me it cost 

" 25/. I begged him to stop any more. He said he would give instructions, but 

*' these things went on worse than ever up to the end. I do not kno^ whether it was 

" because he did not wish to do what I asked, or whether it was because he was unable 

" to control the people." " Another illegal thing which I especially begged Mr. 

** Edwards not to employ was a band, but it was in vain. The amoimt of fictitious 

" employment was in my opinion enormous ; messengers, clerks, board-boys, flags, &c., 

" &c., most of them, as far as I could find, doing nothiug. The Blue boat of Deal, which 

" I never heard of till I saw it, was also another source of fictitious employment, also 

" watehing the flag-staffs after they had been put up, as well as putting them up, and 

" 80 on/* And speaking of his instructions to his solicitor with reference to the 

petition, Sir Julian said, " I told Mr. Lewis to put out all the case against myself as 

** well as against Mr. Crompton Roberts, because I was certain there was a good case 

" against myself, through my agents." 

" I had told Mr. Belsey about the monstrous expenditure that I had already seen in 

" those two days, upon the flags, upon messengers, upon boys, and upon all these 

" ridiculous things which I have described, and of which you have heard a great deal, 

" and I had been told by Mr. Edwards that all these people had to be paid down, and 

" he asked me for a lump sum at the commencement. I thought that after all instead 

** of being bothered every day for a cheque off me, he had better have a lump sum, and 

" I asked his (Mr. Belsey' s) opinion, placing the greatest reliance on his opinion, and/ 

'' he thought as I did, and I not having any cheque in my pocket, and not knowing, for 

'^ a reason I can give, whether I should have a cheque in time for Mr. Edwards to 

'' inform the bank tlmt cash would be required, I asked Mr. Belsey to go to my usual 

fr^iends of B/Ochester, who have constantly paid money for me." 

** I see a good deal has been said about payments for flags, &c. I should have a 
&reat deal to teU you, and I might take the day if I went through all I saw in that 
Respect. One reason why I calculated 2,000/. (apart from the reason that I believe 
^IVlr. Edwards had asked me for that sum) would be a very moderate sum, considering 
"tte way the election was conducted, was that I counted myself over 150 poles and 
^"fcandards put up in the * blue ' interest, as they call it, with flags, &c., and in order to 
"test what was done I went to Mr. Edwards without telling him my object, and asked 
Ixow much was paid for putting up those poles. I was told that every man upon the 
Xjiberal side was paid 25^., and every man upon the Conservative side was paid 30*. 
'Xhen in order to test it I went to some of the men and asked them how many had been 
' c>ccupied in putting up a moderate sized pole, and was told upon that occasion five. 
Iherefore, I put down the expense of that pole at 6/., and considering that I counted 
there were 150 poles, it showed that an enormous sum of money would be very likely 
^required. It is perfectly iQegal I know, and I am fully aware of that. I had asked 

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XIV 

** them not to go on mth it, but it was gone on with. The saffle (lung occurred 
" with regard to flags and banners/' 

" It was in consequence of the discovery I made in the course of a couple of days of 
" the illegal mode which I have described, that I thought on Wednesday afternoon of 
" retiring, and I only did not do so because I did not wish to incur the reproach of the 
" Liberal party by giving up the seat/* Sir Julian further stated in reply toafquestion 
put by us, that he anticipated that the legitimate expenses of the election, with the 
things he saw, which he considered very illegal, the flags and so on, but for which he 
considered he was liable, would amount to 2,000^. or about that sum, and that he knew 
that there was an illegitimate expense being incurred, but that he thought he ought to 
pay for it, as- his agents had ordered it as far as he knew. 

Mr. Belsey in his testimony stated as follows : — " Sir Julian mentioned to me the 
** diflElculty he was in through having no cheque, and complained of the lavish expen- 
*' diture. Of course he could not fight the election purely because he was already 
" committed before he got there ; he was inclined to go away and leave it, but had 
" made up his mind upon full consideration to stop, and he wanted the 1,200?. or 
" 1,500/. for the lavish expenditure which seemed to be the custom of the place." " I 
" mean that he could not claim the seat by reason of acts that had been done before 
** he got there. He seemed to have been there without the possibility of carrying the 
*' election through, as he would have done had he had the reins from the outset.*' 
*' By * acts,* I do not mean bribery, but the engagement of committee rooms, and the 
" expenditure that we saw going on all round in the free employment of labour of 
" every kind, it looked to me as if the election was being fought free-handedly." 
" The impression that Sir Julian left upon my mind was that at tiiat time he had 
" made up his mind to fight the election through, and by means, I do not say, bribery or 
" illegitimate means, but by means which might have been possibly questionable, 
" but whether they were legitimate or illegitimate would have to be left to the 
** decision of the election judges. He was not able to prevent them. I will say 
" lavish me.ans." 

Mr. Belsey also said, " Sir Julian complained to me of the lavish expenditure in 
" putting up of flags, &c. He said it seemed a very expensive place, and they 
** seemed to have gone on in a lavish way in the piutting up of flags, and that they 
** were putting up an enormous flag-pole ; but he had determined to fight, and 
" inasmuch as it was done it could not be helped. That is what I gathered from his 
" conversation, and I understood that this money (the 1,600/.) was wanted tor the 
** payment of this sort of work, and the lavish way of carrying it out.'* 

The above statements of Sir Julian and evidence of Mr. Belsey seem to show that 
Sir Julian having, after some hesitation, determined from motives of loyalty to his 
party, to fight the contest to the end, with knowledge of acts and of a lavish ex- 
penditure by his agents and partisans, including " fictitious employment to an enor- 
mous amount," and " sufl&cient to invalidate any election," though he had remonstrated 
against them nevertheless caused a sum of 1,500Z. to b^ paid into the hands 
of his agents without any instructions as to. its application, and with the in- 
tention, as both he and Mr. Belsey admit, that it should be appKed not only in 
discharge of the legitimate expenses of the election, but also the lavish employment 
and expenditure upon poles and banners, messengers and board-boys, which he had 
seen going on all around him. 

Sir Julian is a barrister, and of considerable experience in all matters connected 
with elections, and accepting as we do his explanation of the circumstances under and 
the purposes for which he paid the 1,600Z. into his agent's hands, we are unable to 
avoid the conclusion that he intended it to be applied, in part at least, in the discharge 
of obligations incurred by his agents in fictitious employment of various kinds, with a 
view to influence the votes of persons so employed or their relatives, and that though 
Sir Julian in the first instance remonstrated against such proceedings, yet he 
afterwards, by so providing the means of payment therefor, tacitly sanctioned such 
employment, and was consequently legally guilty of a corrupt practice within the 
statute. 

Having found that corrupt practices were committed at the election above 
mentioned we proceeded to inquire concerning the election immediately previous, 
according to the provisions of 15 & 16 Vict. c. 57, sect. 6. At the election which 
took place in March, 1880, there was no contest, Mr. KnatchbuU Hugessen and 



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Mr. Henry Brassey being returned as elected without opposition. This fact did not, 
however, in our judgment, having regard to the language of the statute, (though 
we are aware that a difference of opinion exists on the subject), either excuse us from 
inqiiiring concerning this election, nor did it enable us, having ii;iquired and found that 
no corrupt practices were committed thereat, to go back to previous elections. 

The election expenses of Mr. Knatchbull Hugessen and Mr. Henry Brassev at the 
election of March 1880 were returned as being in all 364/. 'Ss, 5d. for Sandwich, and 
199/. 17«. 2d. for Deal and Walmer. The abstract of these expenses is subjoined in 
Appendix D. We found that Mr. Edwards, the Liberal agent at Deal and Walmer, 
received a sum of lOOZ. from Mr. Henry Brassey for his services as agent beyond and 
above the sum included in the 199/. 7«. 2d. 

The payment of 2001. to each agent at an uncontested election appears to us to have 
been excessive ; but we do not find that any of the payments at this election were 
corrupt. 

We thought it right to inquire into the expenditure of Mr. Henry Brassey in the 
borough between the years 1874 and 1880, with a view to form a judgment whether 
the unopposed election was not brought about by expenditure intended to prevent 
opposition. We ascertained that Mr. Henry Brassey's subscriptions in the borough 
amomited to 489Z. in 1877, 551/. in 1878, and 573Z. in 187S ; his other expenses in the ' 
borough similarly rising from 39Z. in 1877, to 53/. in 1878, and 74/. in 1879, exclusive 
of personal expenditure during a stay at Deal in October of that year. In 1880, 
before the election took place Mr. Brassey spent and subscribed 315/. in the borough ; 
after the election his similar expenses to the end of the year were only 45/. 
We ascertained also that Mr. Brassey, in November 1879, entertained the Corporation 
of Deal at dinner at an expense of 57/., and in January 1880, the Corporation of Sand- 
wich at an expense of 44/. We think that this expenditure was excessive, and that its 
effect was to render it impossible for a man not able or willing to go to equal expense 
to contest or represent Sandwich. But we do not think that this expenditure 
constituted the commission of corrupt practices at the election of March 1880. 

We felt ourselves, therefore, prqcluded, on the ground alreadjr referred to, from 
inquiry into the election of 1874 or earlier elections. But observing the nature and 
manner of the bribery committed at the contest between Mr. Crompton Roberts and 
Sir Julian Goldsmid, the general expectation that money would be distributed in 
bribery, the almost universal willingness and even avidity to accept bribes, the great 
proportion of the population implicated, the ease with which the most extensive 
bribery was carried out, the organization for the purpose of bribery, which was far 
too facile and complete to be inexperienced, the readiness on the part of many to accept 
bribes from both sides, and the total absence of a voice to warn, condemn, or 
denounce, we cannot doubt that electoral corruption had long and extensively 
prevailed in the borough of Sandwich. 

We do not think it within the scope of our duties to oflFer any recommendations on 
the subject of the means by which corruption may be better prevented; but we may be 
permitted to say that evidence given before us appears to establish some conclusions 
of practical importance. 

(1.) It did not appear that the mode of taking votes by ballot had the slightest effect in 
checking bribery. On the contrary, while it enabled many voters to take bribes on 
both sides, it did not, as far as we could ascertain, render a single person unwilling 
to bribe for fear of bribing in vain. 

(2.) The law as to the return of election expenses in its present form appears to us 
practically useless for any purpose. It would seem that the provisions intended to 
compel the real expenses to be returned, are in eflfect disregarded, and do not even 
ensure any return at aU. There is nothing to compel or even enable the election 
expenses agent to exercise any effective control over the return. If the law had com- 
pelled a strict audit of election expenses, and provided that the candidates should 
disclose the amount and manner of their real expenditure at the election, bribery 
could not probably have been committed at the election at Sandwich, certainly not 
in the way by which or by means of the resources out of which it was accomplished. 

(3.) The engagement of committee-rooms at public-houses afforded a method by 
which the keeper of the public-house and his clientele were very easily bribed. 

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(4.) The payment of the expenses to out-Toters appeared to ns to degenerate very 
readily into over-payment amounting to a bribe. 

(5.) The employment of canvassers, clerks, and messengers, to an extent not measured 
by any real requirement, and the extravagant display of party emblems offered abun- 
dant opportunities for corruption. 

All which we have the honour to-submit for Tour Majesty's most gracious con- 
sideration. 

(Signed) WM. H. HOLL. 
R. E. TURNER. 
Temple, Eebruary 9th, 1880. F. H. JETJNB; 



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SCHEDULE I. 



Bbxbebs. 



Adams, Thomas. 
Allen, Thomas Winston. 
Axon, David. 
Axon, Henry David. 
Axon, James. 

Bailey, G^rge, Sandwich, 

Baker, Charles, Sandwich, 

Baker, Henry Minter. 

Baker, Frederick. 

Bales, Thomas. 

Ballard, Edward. 

Barnes, Thomas. 

Beck, William. 

Bedwell, Thomas Frederick. 

Betts, John William. 

Bishop, John, Q^er Deed. 

Brett, James. 

Bristowe, Edward. 

Bristow, Henry Heron Strouts. 

Bullen, WiUiam. 

Bullen, William Thomas. 

BusheD, William, Upper fVcdmer. 

Bnshell, WDliam Wilkins. 

Chittenden, James McCarthy. 
Cloke, Frederick Spencer. 
Coleman, Benjamin Longden. 
Conley, William. 
Cox, Charles. 
Crompton-Boberts, Charles Henry. 

Denne, Oeorge Henry. 
Durban, Henry CareU. 

East, Hen^. 
Edwurds, «fames Barber. 
Emmerson, Richard Joynes. 
Epps, William Edward. 
Erri^ge, James John. 
Erridge, Ralphs. 
Evans, Charles. 



William. 
Files, John. 
Finnis, Thomas Homsby, '< The Fox^" NoHh 

End. 
Firminger, Edward Henry. 

Gibbons, Richard. 
Gillow, Richard. 
Giles, Thomas Valentine. 
Goldsmid, Sir Julian. 
Grigg, Edward. 

Hanco<^, William North. 

Harris, Patrick. 

Hayman, William Henry. 

Hills, Edwin. 

Hoile, Stephen, Walmer Road. 

Hooper, Gfeorge. 

Home, William B. 

Home, James. 

Hughes, Edwin. 

Hughes, William John. 

HuUec, Frederick Thomas. 

Hnson, Henry. 

James, John Samuel. 
Jones, Robert William^ 

Kidner, Thomas. 



Langley, John Beer. 
Langley, Thomas, Sandwich. 
Lawrence, John. 
Lee, Philpott Rutley. 
License, William. 
Lock, G^rge. 
Lownds, Robert Ramell. 

Mackie, William BurviU. 
Mackins, John Thomas. 
Marsh, Henry, Beach Street. 
Millen, Henry Edward. 
Millen, John Bullock. 
Miller, William John. 
Minter, William Robert. 
Moon, George William. 
Mose, William James Jonathan. 
Myhill, Valentine. 

Nicholas, William. 
Norris, Alfred Henry. 
Norris, William, Lower fValmer. 
Norris, William Greorge. 
Nowers, Joseph. 

Olds, Samuel. 
Outwin, John Thomas. 

Parker, Benjamin. 
Pearson, Henry. 
Pearson, Samuel. 
Philpott, Greorge. 
Philps, Thomas. 
Piddock, William. 
Porter, George. 
Potts, George. 
Pritchard, Stephen. 

Ralph, Thomas. 
Ralph, Greorge. 
Ralph, John James. 
Ramell, William Henry. 
Ramell, John Pettet. 
Rea, Edward. 
Redman, Charles. 
Redman, Richard. 
Reynolds, George Kingsford. 
Rigden, Alfred William. 
Riley, Alexander. 
Riley, William. 
Rose, Edward Thomas. 

Simmons, Daniel George Frederick. 
Simpson, George. 
Solomon, Walter. 
Spears, Henry. 
Spears, William Frost. 

Terry, Edward. 
Thomas, William Godfrey. 
Tinley, Joseph Johua. 
Trigg, William. 
TroUope, James. 

Usher, Thomas James. 

Warner, Frederick. 
Watts, William. 
Wilds, Robert George. 
Wilmshurst, Thomas. 
Wise, James. 
Wood, Benjamin. 
Woodruff, Thomas John. 
Worrels, Lewis. 
Wyboume, Richard Smith. 



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SCHEDULE II. 



Beibees. 

Those against whose Nabces an (*) is placed Received Bbibes prom both sides. 



•Abbott, George. 

• Adams, Edward Gabriel Alexander. 
*Adams, Jack. 

*Adams, John Lemon. 
Allen, Culmer Willilun. 
Allen, Stephen. 

• Allen, William. 
♦Allen, William Valentine. 

Amess, Henry Ramell. 

Amos, George. 

Anderson, John. 

Andrews, John. 

Andrews, Hobert. 

Annall, John Batt. 

Arberry, Joseph. 

Archer, John Clajson. 

Archer, Robert, 

Archer, Richard Redman. 

Archer, Stephen George. 

Archer, William Hills. 

Arnold, James. 

Arter, Thomas- 

Ashington, John Henry. 

Ashington, Robert Henry. .^ 

Ashton, Henry. " :^ 

Ashington, Thomas William. 

Atkins, James. 

Austin, Giles. 

Austin, John. ' 

Aves, Samuel. 

Axon, Bayley. 

Axon, Henry David. 

Axon, Henry. 

Axon, James. 

Baber, Thomas. 

Bailey, Benjamin. 

Bailey, ChArles. 

Bailey, George, King Street. 

Bailey, George, Wellington Road, 

Bailey, James. 

Bailey, Thomas. 

Bailey, Redman. 

Bailey, William, Middle Street, 

Bailey, William, Gladstone Road, 

Baker, Charles, Walmer, 

Baker, Frederick. 

Baker, John. 

Baker, John William. 

Baker, James Thomas, Lower Walmer, 

Baker, James Thomas, York Street. 

Baker, Richard. 

Baker, Thomas, Crown Court. 

Baker, Thomas, Middle Street, 

Baldwin, John. 

Barnes, Thomas. 

Bartlett, Henry. 

Barrett, Henry. 

Barwick, James. 

Batchell, Robert. 

Bassett, John. 
♦Bax, Robert. 

Bayly, George. 

Bayley, Henry. 

Bayley, John. 

Bayley, Robert Long. 

Bayness, John Francis. 
•Beal, Henry. 



Beal, James. 
♦Beal Richard. 

Bean, John. 

Bean, WilUam. 

Beck, William. 

Bedwell, George Thdmas. 

Bedwell, John. 

Beecham, William. 
♦Beech ing, Charles. 

Beer, William. 

Beerville, John. 

Best, James. 

Beney, John James. 

Bennett, James. 

Berry, Thomas. 

Berwick, Edward. 

Berwick, John. 

Berwick, Thomas. 

Berwick, Richard. 

Berwick, William. 
♦Betts, Richard Atherden, West Street. 

Betts, Richard Atherden, Portland Terrace, 

Betts, Robert Thomas. 

Betts, William Robert, Alexandra Cottages. 

Betts, William Robert, Chriffen Street, 

Bingham, James Files. 

Bingham, Thomas. 

Birch, Gilbert. 

Bird, Henry. 

Bird, James. 
♦Bishop, John, Vpper Deal, 

Bishop, John, Church Street. 

Bishop, Greorge. 

Bishop, Slodden. 

Blackburn, William. 

Blissenden, Stephen. 

Blown, James. 
•Blown, William. 

Blyth, Henry. 

Bolwell, James. 

Bond, Henry. 

Bowlyes, James. 
♦Bowles, Allen. 

Bowles, Thomas. 

Bowles, John. 
*Bowles, William. 

Boyer, William. 

Brazier, John. 
♦Brett, George. 

Brett, James. 

Brett, William, Sandwich, 

Bi'ett, William, jS^t7t?cr Street, 

Brenchley, Edward. 
♦Bright, Richard Henry. 
•Brisley, Thomas. 

Bridge, Edward Law. 

Bristowe, Edward. 

Bristow, Stephen. 

Brooker, John. 

Brooksby, William. 

Brown, John. 

Brown, Thomas George. 

Brown, James Thomas. 

Brown, William, Upper Deal, 

Brown, William, Farrier Street, 
•Brown, William, Upper Walmer, 

Browning, William. 

Brudenell, Thomas. 



Digitized by 



Google 



WW 



XIX 



BuUen, Edward. 

Bullen, John^ 

BuUen^ Robert. 

BnlleD, Thomas. 

Burchett, Jolin. 

Burlejj Valkotine. 

Bur nap, Frank, 

BiirDap, Rt chard John. 

Burnap, WiHfam. 

Burns, John. 

Burton, George Richard. 

Barton, Thomaa Aaron. 

Burton, William. 

Burton, Zflchariah. 

Bushdl, Henry. 

Bushel], John. 

.Bushell, James*. 

Bushell, William, Fork Street. 

Bushell, Walter Dixon. 

Bushell, William Wilkins. 

Bugiin^ Johu* 

Bntler^ WiUiatn. 

Bu tress, George. 

Buttress^ James Thomas. 

Buttress^ John Thomas. 

Buttress, Thomas. 

Canncy, Edward. 

Canney, George. 

Caiinicut, Richard. 

Capps, John Hatch. 

Carlton, George. 

Carpenter, George. 

Carroway, Jenniah. 

Cai-vey, Harry. 

Caspeil, Frederick John Thomas. 

Campbell, Henry James. 

CB8tle, Joseph. 

Castle, Jamesp 
♦Cftstlej John* 

Castle, WilUara. 

Cattermole, Henry. 

Cttvc, John, 

Cavellj Albert Alphonso. 

Cavell, Edward. 
*Cavell, Frederick. 

Chandler, Elgar. 

Chandler, James ; Nelson Street. 

Chandler, James, Senior. 

Chandler, Thomas. 

Chapman, Henry. 

Chawner^ Henry. 

Chid wick, Robert. 

Chittendf'n, James McCarthy. 

Claringbold, Alfred. 

Clikringbold, Charles. 

Claringbold, Michael. 

Claringbold, Philip. 

Clnrk, James, 

Clayaon, Haylor William. 

Clements, John, 

Clements^ William, 

Cload, Alfred. 
*Cloke, Isaac* 

Clover, George. 

Coletmm, Edward. 

Coleman, George. 

Coleman, Frederick. 

Colemiin, Jamei^. 

Coleman^ John, 

Collard, Chartei*. 

Collins, Edward Duncan. 

Cook, Henry. 

Cook, John. 

Cooper, Stephen. 

Constant, Thomas John. 

Corey, Richard. 

Corey, Thonuia William. 

Orey, William Henry. 

Cork, Eciward Henry. 

Cork, Thomas* 

Couldery^ Robert Julian. 

C13334* 



Court, Henry. 

Cox, Thomas. 

Cox, John. 

Craker, John. 
♦Cribben, Thomas, Beach StreeL 

Cribben, Thomas, Dolphin Siret^t, 

Cribben, George. 

Cribben, William. 

Crickett, Richard. 
•Ci-oES, Robert. 

Cross, Thomas. 

Cuffley, Samael. 

Curling, Alfred. 

Curling, Charles Henry. 

Curling, Edward Morris. 

Curling, Edward. 

Curling, Frederick. 

Curlmg, William, Upper DeaL 

Curling, William, Muh Road, 

Cushney, John. 

Cushney, William. 



Dadd, William. 

Darby, Edward Danby. 

Darby, Henry Hunter. 

Davidson, Joshua. 

Dawkins, Gkorge. 

Dawson, John. 

Dean, William. 

Dear, Willianu 

Denham, Joseph. 

Denham, Joseph Vincent. 

Denne, John. 

Denne, William George. 

Desormeaux, Thomas Walter. 

Dessent, John. 
♦Devell, James William. 

Deverson, John. 

Deverson, William. 

Dewell, John. 

Dixon, Joseph. 

Dixon, Thomas. 
•Drayson, John. 

Drew, Edward William. 

Drew, Henry. 

Drew, John 

Driver, George. 

Drury, Edwara. 

Drury, William. 

Dryer, Frederick Charles. 

Duffy, Thomas. 
•Dunn, John. 

Dunn, William, Upper DeaL 

Dunn, William, Beach Street^ 

Dunn, William Thomas. 

Durban, Henry Cavell. 

Durban, John. 

Durban, James. 

Durban, William. 



Eastes, Benjamin Silveeter. 
East, Henry Ellis. 
East, William. 
Eastman, John. 
EUen, David. 
Ellender, George. 
EUender, Sampson. 
Elliott, Greorge. 
Ellis, William. 
Elsden, John. 
Elsden, Thomas. 
England, Francis. 
Epps, George. 
Epps, Thomas. 
Epps, William. 
•Epps, William Edward, 
Epsley, Greorge. 
Epsley, Thomas. 
Erridge, Henry. 
Erridge, James John. 

Jigitized 



be(toOOgIe 



XX 



Erridge, Balph. 
Erridge, Thomas. 
Evans, Charles. 
EweU, Alfred. 
Ewell, Fredrick. 
•EweU, Henry. 

Farrier, Edward. 
Farrier, George, Sandwich. 
♦Farrier, George, Upper Deal. 

Farrier, George Edward. 

Farrier, John. 

Farrier, William. 

Fear, G^rge. 

Ferrier, Robert. 

Ferris, John. 

Field, William* 

Files, Stephen, Middle Street. 
♦Files, Stephen, Durham Place. 

Files, Thomas Jarvis. 

Files, John. 

Finnis, George Wells. 

Finnis, John. 

Finnis, Ingram. 

Finnis, John Belsey. 

Finnis, Philip John. 

Finnis, Thomas Homsby, Ivy Place. 

Finnis, Thomas Homsby, " The Fox;' North 
End. 

Finnis, William. 

Finnis, William Henry. 

Fittall, George. 

Firminger, Alfred. 

Firminger, Edward Henry. 

Firminger, Stephen. 

Fisher, Frederick. 

Flanders, Robert. 

Flower, Henry Joseph. 

Foord, Eldred. 

Foster, David William. 

Foster, Henry. 

Foster, John. 

Foulgate, William. 

Foy, Charles. 

Foy, James. 

French, Herbert. 

Friend, George. 

Friend, John. 

Friend, John George. 

Friend, John William. 
•Friend, Leonard Thomas. 

Friend, Thomas. 

Friend, William, Arh Lane. 

Friend, William, Exchange Street. 

Friend, William Benjamin. 
•Friend, William Langley. 
•Frost, William. 

Futter, James. 

Gambrill, Richard. 
•GrambriU, Thomas. 

Gardiner, Edward. 

Gardiner, John. 

Gibbens, John. 

Gibbons, Richard. 

Gibson, Edward. 

Gilham, James. 
♦Gimber, William. 

Gisby, James. 

Goddard, Henry. 

Goddard, Joseph. 

Goddard, William. 

Goldfinch, Charles. 

Goldfinch, Edwin. 

Goldsack, Henry. 

Goldsack, Richard. 
•Goodban, George 

Goodban, Stephen Arthur. 

Goodban, Thomas. 
•Goodbourne, Thomas. 



•Goodchild, William Richard. 

Gosley, James John. 

Gross, Francis. 

Goymer, John. 

Groymer, Thomas Trott. 

Grant, Henry. 

Grant, John Chapman. 

Grant, William. 
•Graves, James. 
•Graves, William. 

Gray, Greorge. 

Greedy, Robert. 

Greenland, John Edward* 

Grigg, John G. 
•Griggs, Greorge. 

Griggs, John. 
•Gunner, William. 

Gurr, John. 

Hall, Charles, North End. 

Hall, Charles, Walmer Road. 

Hall, Greorge Lancelot. 

Hall, Henry. 

Hall James. 
♦Hall, James Frederick. 

Hall, Richard Alfred. 

Hall, Thomas. 

Hambrook, John. 
•Hambrook, Edward Thomas. 
•Hambrook, Thomas. 

Hamilton, John. 

Hamilton, Frank. 

Hamilton, Charles. 

Hammond, James. 

Hammond, William. 

Hanger, Edward. 

Hanger, George N. 

Hanger, Henry. 

Hanger, John Gwillam. 

Hare, Abraham Walker. 

Hare, William. 

Harbour, Robert. 

Harlow, William. 

Harris, Patrick. 
•Harrison, Francis R. 

Harrison, Henry. 

Harvey, Hezekiah. 

Harvey, James. 

Harvey, Jesse. 

Harvey, James Edward. 

Hawkesworth, Samuel. 

Hayman, John. 

Hayman, Richard. 

Hayman, Richard Henry. 

Hayman, Robert George. 

Hayman, William Henry. 

Hayward, George. 

Hayward, Henry. 
♦Hayward, Edward. 

Hawkes, Thomas. 

Hawkins, Andrew. 

Helman, Thomas. 

Helman, William. 

Hendrick, William. 

Hill, John. 

Hill. Richard. 

Hobbs, Charles. 

Hobbs, David. 

Hocken, John. 

Hodges, John. 

Hobday, William. 

Hobday, George, 

Hogben, John. 

HoUe, Daniel. 

Hoile, Edward. 
•Hoile, Richard. 

Hoile, Stephen, Walmer Road. 

Hoile, Stephen, Upper Deal. 

•Hoile, William, pilot, 

Hoile, William, Cambridge Road. 



Digitized by 



Google 



ZXl 



Holborn, Robert Thomas. 

Hollidaj, John. 

Hollidaj, Edward. 

Holmansy Job. 
•Holness, George. 
•Hohiess, Williani. 

Holton, William. 

Hood, Robert. 

Hooky G^rge. 

Hookham, Walter Thomas. 
•Hopkins, Hemy. 

Homer, Benjamin. 

Honess, Frederick. 

Howard, William. 

Howlett, Greorge. 
•Hongham, Edward. 
•Hougham, Edwin. 

Hnckstep, Thomas. 

Hughes, John. 
•Hughes, Robert 

Hubbard, Thomas. 
•Hull, William. 

Hunter, William. 

Humm, John. 

Huson, Henry. 

Hutchinson, Thomas. 

Huxstep, Stephen. 



Inkpen, Edwin. 

Irvine, William, Coppen Streets 

Irvine, William, Oak Street. 



Jamieson, James John. 

Jarman, William. 

Jarvis, Greorge Thomas. 

Jarvis, William. 

Jeffery, William. 

Jenner, George. 

Jennings, Edward. 

Jennings, John. 

Jezzard, George. 

Jezzard, Thomas. 

Job, William George. 

Job, Thomas. 

Johnson, Andrew H. 

Johnson, Fredrick George. 

Jolin, Edward. 

Jones, Thomas. 

Jones, Richard. 

Jones, Robert William. 

Jordan, Francis Edward. 

Jordau, James. 

Jordan, Richard. 
•Jordan, William, Sandwich, 

Jordan, William, North End, 

Joy, Silas George. 
•Jury, Edward* 



Kemp, Edward. 
Kemp, Greorge. 
Kemp, Henry. ^ . 
Kemp, Thomas. 
Kemp, William. 
♦Kenney, Richard. 
Kent, Henry. 
Kenton, John. 
Kenton, William. 
Kerrison, William. 
Knight, James. 
Slnight^ John Thomas 
Knight, Richard Valentine. 
Knowler, John. 
Knowler, William- 
Knowles, Henry, 
Korf, Frederick, 



Ladd, John. 

Laggeit, John. 

Laker, John. 

Laker, Slephen. 

Lambert, Adam Collord. 

Lambert, Richard John. 

Lambert, William Gray. 

Langley, George. 

Langley, George. ' 

Langley, James. 

Langley, John. 

I^angley? Thomas, Cannon Street. 

Langley, Thomas, Sandwich. 

Larkins, Murray. 

Larkins, William. 

Langtree, James 

Lawrence, George, Sandwich. 

Lawrence, George David. 

Lawrence, Henry. 
•Lawrence, Richard. 

Lawrence, Thomas. 
•Lawrence, William Bowling. 

Leach, Daniel. 

Ledner, James. 

Ledner, John. 

Lee, Charles. 

Lee, Frederick. 

Lee, Joseph. 

Lifford, Robert. 

Lincoln, Thomas. 

Line, Charles. 

Lock, George. 

Lock, William. 

Long, Baily. 
•Long, Charles. 

Long, Edmund Frederick. 

Longhurst, George. 

Longley, William. 
•Love, William. 

Lowndes, George. 

Loyns, Samuel. 



Macey, Benjamin John. 

Macey, Edwin. 

Macey, George John. 

Macey, John William. 

Macey, William John. 

Mackie, Henry William. 

Mackie, William Burvill. 

Mackins, George Edward. 

Mackins, George Hills. 

Mackins, James Chapman. 

Mackins, John Thomas. 

Magee, George Pordige. . 

Magee, William Pordige. 

Manning, Isaac. 
•Mannings, Thomas. 

Mantle, Stephen. 

Mantle, William. 

Marlow, James Thomas. 

Marsh, Henry, Beach Street. 

Marsh, Hemy, North Street. 

Marsh, Gleorge Richard. 

Marsh, Joseph Gardner. 

Marsh, Thomas, Dolphin Street. 

Marsh, Thomas, Lower Walmer. 

Marsh, William. 

Marsh, Thomajs, Middle Deal. 
♦Marsh, William John. 

MarshaU, William, ''Black Horse.'' 

Marshall, William, Duke Street. 
•Mason, Thomas. 

Matthews, Jacob George. 

Matthews, Thomas. 

Maxfield, John. 

Maxted, George, Watfs Alley. 

Maxted, Joseph. 

Maxwell, Samuel. 
•May, Henry. 

May, Henry William. 

Digitized bpVaiOO^lC 



xxu 



May, Joseph. 

May, John. 
*May, John William Marsh. 

May, Thomas. 

Mead, Horatio. 

Meakings, George. 

Meakins, William. 

Medgett, Thomas. 

Mercer, Joseph. 

Middleton, Thomas. 

Miles, Frederick. 

Miles, Henry Wise. 

Miles, John Boakes. 
•Millard, Henry. 
*Millgate, John. 

Minter, Joseph. 

Moat, Alfred. 

Mockett, George. 

Mockett, Joshua. 

Mockett, Stephen George. 

Mockett, Thomas. 

Mockett, Nicholas. 
♦Moore, Isaac. 
♦Morris, Herbert Henry. 
♦Morris, James. 

Mose, William James Jonathan. 

Moss, William Thomas. 

My hill, Valentine. 

Mulliner, Richard. 
♦Mummery, Charles. 

Mumbray, Charles. 
♦Mumbray, John Marsh. 
♦Mumbray, John Hadley. 
♦Murphy, James. 

Naah, Mark. 
♦Nash, itobert. 
♦Neeve, George. 

Neeve, John. 

Neeve, Thomas. 

Neeve, Thomas Henry. 
♦Newing, James. 

Newing, John, ^7, JVest Street. 

Newing, John, 55, fFest Street. 

Newing, William. 

News wain, Martin. 

Newton, Benjamin. 

Newton, Benjamin Wallace. 

Nicholas, James Robert. 

Noble, George. 

Noble, John. 

Norris, Alfred Henry. 

Norris, Edward. 

Norris, Grove Ralph. 

Norris, Henry Thomas. 

Norris, James. 
♦Norris, Norris. 

Norris, Thomas. 

Norris, William, Duke Street. 

Norris, William George. 

Norris, Joseph. 

Oatridge, James. 
Oatridge, William. 
Obree, Frederick James. 
Obree, Thomas Richard. 
Offen, Cyprus. 
Oldfield, William. 
Orrick, Alexander Richard. 
Osborne, Stephen John. 
Osborne, William. 
Overton, James, Coppen Street. 
Overton, James, Middle Deal. 
♦Overy, William Henry. 
Overy, William James. 

Page, Edward. 
P^e, John. 
Paine, Edward. 
Paine, Edmund Joshua. 
Paine, George Edward. 



Paine, George Mockett. 

Pantling, Charles. 

Parker, Benjamin. 

Parker, Edward Stephen. 

Parker, Harry. 

Parker, Joseph Elvery. 

Parnelt Thomas H. 

Parsons, Edward Frederick. 

Pay, John. 

Pearce, Charles. 

Pearson, George. 
♦Pearson, John. 
♦Pearson, Thomas. 

Penny, Thomas. 

Pettet, Alexander. 

Pettet, Edward. 

Pettet, Edward Clayton. 
♦Pettet, George. 

Pettet, William. 

Penn, Robert. 

Phillips, George. * 

Philpott, George, Mddle Street. 

Philpott, Richard, Middle Street.' 

Philpott, Richard, Beach Street. 

Philpott, Richard Charles. 
♦Philpott, William. 
♦Phippen, William. 

Philps, Thomas. 

Pierce, Edward. 

Pierce, Robert. 

Pilcher, Thomas. 
♦Pitcher, George. 
♦Pitcher, John. 

Pittock, James. 

Pittock, John. 
♦Pittock, Robert. 

Pittock, Richard. 

Pittock, William, Sandwich. 

Plumbridge, James. 

Polman, George. 

Poil, John. 

Port, David. 
♦Port, Thomas. 

Pott, George. 

Pott, John Henry. 

Pratt, Charles. 

Prescott, John Lawrence. 

Prescott, Richard Charles. 

Price, John. 

Price, James. 

Pritchard, Stephen. 
♦Pysden, Richard, 

♦Quested, William, 

Ralph, Thomas. 

Ratcliffe, Henry. 

Ralph, George. 

Ralph, James. 

Ralph, John James. 

Ratten, James. 

Rea, Edward. 

Read, George. 
♦Read, Maris Henry. 

Read, Richard. 

Redding, Henry. 

Reed, James. * 

Redman, Charles. 

Redman, George. 

Redman, Henry. 

Redman, John, Wolseley Terrace. 

Redman, John, George Alley. 

Redman, James Munday. 

Redman, Robert. 

Redman, Stephen. 

Redsull, Alfred Henry. 

Redsull, Edward, Middle Deal. 
♦Redsull, Edward, Exchange Street. 

Redsull, Joseph Henry. 



Digitized by 



Google 




xzm 



Bedsnll, Robert. 

Bedsull, lliomas. 
•Revel, Henry. 

Revel, William. 

Reynolds, James. 

Reynolds, Jennings. 

Reynolds, John. 

Rich, Williams. 

Richards, James. 

Riches, James, 

Rigden, Augustas Longley. 

Rigden, John. ' 

Riley, Alexander. 

Riley, Richard. 
♦Roberts, Charles N. 

Roberts, Henry. 
•Roberts, Henry Abraham. 

Roberts, John, Sandoum Cottages. 

Roberts, John, Foster's AUey, 

Roberts, James Bryant. 

Roberts, John George Brown. 

Roberts, Richard William. 

Roberts, William. 

Roberts, William Thomas. 

Robinson, Edward William. 

Robinson, Richard. 

Robinson, William. 

Roche, James, junior. 

Rogers, Alexander. 

Rogers, Daniel. 

Rogers, George 

Rogers, John, Wellington Road. 
•Rogers, John, Sunn*: rife, 

Rogers, Stephen. 

Romney, Edward. 

Romney, William. 

Rose, William. 

Rouse, James. 

Rouse, William. 

Rye, William. 



Sackree, G-eorge. 
Scovell, Charles. 
Selth, Thomas Valentine. 
Selth, Valentine. 
Sharp, John. 
♦Sharp, Richard. 
Shelvey, Daniel. 
Silk, Charles. 
♦Simmons, Arthur Atkins. 
Simmons, George E. 
Simmons, Janaes. 
Simmons, John, Middle Street. 
Simmons, John, Farrier Street. 
Simmons, William. 
♦Simpson, George. 
Skardon, George, High Street. 

Skardon, George, North Wall. 

Skardon, Robert. 
•Skardon, Robert John. 

Skinner, George. 

Skinner, John Thomas. 

Sladden, Henry. 

Slaughter, Henry James. 

Small, William. 

Smith, Charles, Blenheim Road. 

Smith, Charles, Upper Deal. 

Smith, Clement. 
♦Smith, Daniel. 

Smith, Gillinan. 

Smith, George. 

Smith, Greorge Richard. 

Smith, James. 

Smith, James. 

Smith, Joseph. 

Smith, John. 

Smith, Thomas. 
♦Smith, Robert Dawes. 

Smith, William Gilman. 



Smith) Richard Dilnott. 

Smithers, Edward. 

Sneller, Samuel. 

Sneller, William, Dolphin Street. 

Sneller, William, Becu:h Street. 

Snelling, Isaac. 

Snoswdl, Seth. 

SoUey, Stephen John. 

Spain, Edward. 

Spain, Edmund Henry. 

Spain, Edward Thomas. 

Spain, Stephen Thomas. 

Spain, Thomas John* 

Spain, William. 

Sparks, Henry. 

Spears, Greorge Frost 

Spears, Henry. 

Spears, Richard. 

Spears, Thomas. 

Spears, William Frost. 

Spelling, Joseph. 
♦Spicer, Frederick. 

Spicer, Henry, senior. 

Spicer, Henrys junior. 
♦Spicer, James Arthur. 

Spicer, John Ralph. 

Spicer, James. 

Spicer, Stephen. 
♦Spicer, Walter. ^ 

Spicer, William. 

Spinner, Gkorge. 

Spinner, James. 

Spender, Frederick. 

Spratling, Robert. 

Stanton, John. 
♦Stevens, James. 

Stokes, Albert. 

Stokes, John Bi'adley. 

Stokes, Richard. 

Stokes, William. 

Stroud, John. 

Stunt, Greorge, Robert Street. 

Stunt, George, Lower Walmer. 

Stupple, Henry. 

Styles, Thomas Heath. 

Styles, William. 

Sutton, Greorge Lamby. 

Swain, Herbert. 
Sweetman, Thomas. 



♦Tandy, John Robert Macey. 
♦Tandy, Walter. 
♦Tandy, William Thomas. 

Tapley, Edward. 

Tapley, Thomas. 

Tate, Robert. 

Taylor, John, Upper Deal. 

Taylor, John, Robert Street. 

Terry, Frederick. 

Terry, John. 

Terry, William. 

Theobald, Thomas. 

Thomas, John. 

Thompsett, Gilham, Cannon Street. 

Thompsett, Gilham, 33, West Street. 

Thompson, Greorge Freeman. 

Thompson, Richard. 

Thompson, William. 

Thurgood, James. 

Tinley, Joshua. 

Tinley, Joseph Joshua. 

Town, George, 30, High Street. 

Town, George, Sandwich. 

Town, John 

Town, William. 

Traps, Henry. 

Tremeere, William. 

Trigg, William. 

Trinder, John. 

Trott, Daniel. 



Digitized 



1^ Google 






XXIV 



Trott, John. 
Turner, Chaxles. 
Twyman, George. 
Twyman, William Thomas. 
♦Tyler, WiUiam. 

Uden, Thomas. 
Upton, Henry. 
Upton, Thomas. 

Valder, Henry. 
Vale, Thomas. 
Verstage, Charles Edwin. 
Verstage, Charles John. 

Wall, Frederick. 

Wallace, George. 
•Waller, Henry. 
•Waller, John Henry. 
•Walker, Henry. 

Walker, Henry. 

Wanstidl^ George. 

Wanstall, James. 

Wanstall, Stephen. 

Wanstall, Thomas. 

Ware, William. 

Warner, Frederick. 

Watts, Stephen Edward. 

Watts, William. 

Wehb, Charles. 

Webb, Thomas- 
Webb, William. 

Weekes, James. 

Wellard, John Arrick. 

Wells, George William. 
•WeUs, Henry. 

Well^ring, Barnabas. 
•West, George. 

Wheatley, William. 

White, Alfred Valentine. 

White, George Rumbolt. 

White, Harry Blown. 

White, James. 

White, Thomas. 

Whitnall, Daniel. 

Whitnall, Frank. 
•Whitnall, WUUam. 



Wilds, Robert George. 
Wilds, Richard. 
Wilds, Stephen. 
Wilkins, Henry. 
Willey, Simeon. 

Williams, Daniel, Blenheim Rood. 
♦Williams, George. 
Williams, Henry, Upper Walmer. 
•Williams, Henry, Wett Street. 
Williams, John, Smith's Folly. 
Williams, John, Peter Street. 
♦Williams, Robert. 
Williams, Thomas. 
Williams, William. 
Willis, William. 
Wilmshorst, Frederick Francis. 
Wilmshurst, Thomas. 
Wilson, George. 
♦WUson^ Richard. 
Wood, Arthur. 
Wood, Herbert Thomas. 
♦Wood, John, Sandwich. 
Wood, John, Wialmer. 
♦Wood, William. 
Woodcock, George. 
Woodcock, John. 
Woodcock, Thomas. 
Woodlands, James. 
Wooden, James. 
Wooding, James Harris. 
Woodward, George. 
Worrels, Lewis. 
Wraigh^ George. 
Wraight, Henry. 
Wraight, Osboume James. 
Wratten, James. 
♦Wratten, John. 
Wratten, Thomas Marks. 
Wratten, Richard. 
Wratten, William, 32, West Street. 
♦Wratten, William, 4P, West Street. 
Wrighton, William. 
Wybom, John. 
Wyboume, Richard Smith. 

Young, George William. 
♦Young, John. 



Digitized by 



Google 



XXV 



SCHEDULE III. 



TBEATEE8. 



Allen, Thomas Winston. 

Bailey, George, Sandwich, 
Baker, Henry Mlnter. 
Ballard, Edward. 
Brett, James. 
Bullen, William Thomas. 
Bushell, James. 

Coleman, Benjamin Longden. 
Cork, Edward Henry. 
Chittenden, James MoCaiihy. 

Denne, Charles. 
Denne, George Henry. 
Durban, Jolm. 

East, HeniT. 
Edwards, James Barber. 
Emmerson, Richard Joynes. 

Fagg, William. 

Finnis, Thomas Hornsby, « The Fox,*' North 
End. 

Gillow, Richard. 

Hills, Edwin. 
Hogben, John. 
Hooper, Greorge. 
Home, James. 
Hughes, William John. 



Luff, Mary Ann. 

Millen, Henry Edward. 
Millen, John Bullock. 

Norris, WiUiam George. 

Outwin, John Thomas. 

Pantling, Charles. 
Pearson, Samuel. 
Pierce, Robert. 
Pritchard, Stephen. 

Ralph, George. 
Riley, William. 
Rose, Eklward Thomas. 

Simmons, Daniel Geoi'ge Frederick. 
Skinner, John Thomas. 
Slaughter, Henry James. 
Smith, Charles, Q>per Deal. 

Thompson, William. 
Trigg, William. 
TroUope, James. 

Ward, Mrs. 
Warner, Frederick. 
Watte, William. 
Woodruff, Thomas John. 
Wyboume, Richard Smith. 



SCHEDULE IV. 



List op Persons who were Examined as Witnesses, but to whom Cbbtipicates 

OP Indemnity have not been Granted. 



!EMwards, James Barber. 
Gillow, Richard. 
Mackins, John Thomas. 
Mackie, William Burvill. 
Olds, Samuel. 



Porter, George Edward. 
Rea, Edward. 
Spears, Henry. 
Wise, James. 
Wood, Benjamin. 



Q33a4. 



Digitized by 



Gfcogl* 



XXVI 



APPENDIX A. 



Return of Expenses on behalf of Me. Oeompton Eobeets, May, 1880. 



Agent's fee - 

Sub-agents - - - - - 
Cabs, railway fares, telegrams, &c. - 

Committee nouses - - - - 
Clerks and personation «agents at central 

offices - - - - - 

Ditto per Mr. Usher - - - 

Postages . - - - - 

Public meetings . - . - 
Canvassers and messengers at Deal - 

„ „ at Sandwich 

Bill posting - - - - - 
Clerks and messengers at Walmer - 

Boards and boardmen - - - 
Posting stations, poles, cordage, &c. 

Printing and stationery - - - 

Personcd expenses - - - - 

Returning officer - - - - 

Sundries . - - - - 



(Signed) Edwin Hughes, 

Election Agent. 
Received by the Returning Officer, 
August 2nd, 1880. 



£ s. 


d. 


210 





92 10 





224 6 


4 


527 1 


3 


125 14 


4* 


370 





22 18 


5 


29 J7 





468 1 





83 16 





. 35 6 


9 


60 14 


5 


. 139 19 


2 


. 279 19 


94 


. 221 17 


1 


. 106 13 


2 


. 70 8 


3 


. 84 3 


3 


3,153 5 


3 



APPENDIX B, 



Parliamentary Election, May, 1880. 

List op Claims against Sir Julian Goldbmid, 
(Handed to the Judges at the Trial of the Election Petition, August 6th, 1880.) 



Sandwich. 



Puhlic-house claims - 
** Bell " hotel committee room 
Other houses ,, „ 

Mrs. Hunter „ „ 

Poles, hanners, &c. 
Fly hire and conveyance 
Bui posting - - - 

Out- voters* travelling fares - 
Watchmen - - - 

Printing - . - 

ftegisters of electors - 
Committee clerk 

„ „ assistant 



£ 8. d. 

17 

28 

10 



10 
5 



Messengers, polling and personation clerks - 
Flagmen - - - . . 

Personal expenses - - - - 

Sundry expenses, special train to Deal, post- 
ages, telegrams, &c. ... 
Returning officer's expenses - . . 
Town clerk's fee (assumed) - - . 
Agent's fee - 



£ ». d. 
89 12 6 



55- 





26 5 


6 


15 18 





4 





23 





16 





15 10 11 


5 





15 





35 


6 


2 2 





48 17 


3 


17 11 





100 





25 





100 






Dbal. 



Per Outwin : — 



593 17 8 



Forester committee room 
"Port Arms" „ 
"Friendly Port" „ 
Hayward, George „ 
"Clarendon "tap „ 
"Jolly Gardener" „ 
" RailwayTavem" „ 
"Norfolk Arms" „ 
" MaxtonArms" „ 
"Victoria" 
"Fox" 
"Deal Castle" 
" Compasses " „ 
"Deal Cutter" „ 
" Tally Ho !" 
Clayson's „ 

"Castle Inn" 
"White Horse" „ 
"Shah" 

"Park Tavern" „ 
Pritchard" Eagle",, 
King, J.J. „ 

Woodward and assistant 



£ 8. d. 

7 

16 10 

3 







5 
7 
5 
7 
5 
5 
5 
5 
5 
4 
5 
5 
5 
5 
5 
3 
5 

10 
5 

17 


































9 

4 



£ 8.d. 



145 10 



Digitized by 



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XXVll 



Deal— -ooti^iiiie<^. 



'* South-£astern Gazette," account address • 
"Chronicle" . - - . 

Dyason, saddler - - . - 

Castle, bill - - . - - 

Calmer, printer . - - - 

Proprietor, ** Mercury " address 
Pittock, John, draper - - - 

Smith, pail and brushes - - - 

Wellden, draper - - - - 

Baldwin, „ . - - - 

Clarabut, „ " " " ' 

Brook, flys - - - - - 

Public rooms . - - - 

Cottew, repairing wall, &c. - 
Brown, for preparing canvassing books 
Making out strike lists for committee rooms 
T. C. Hall, retainer fee - - - 

Bent, bOl posting - - - - 

Skinner, ** Jolly Gardener " - 
" Windsor Castle," flag poles 
Mrs. Dunn, miUiner 
A. W. King, disbursements in canvass 
William White, work 



£ s. 

1 17 

2 2 
10 
2 2 



2 
1 

7 
5 

11 
9 
8 
6 

10 



19 
14 



10 
52 
14 

1 
5 
3 
1 



Denne, central committee room refreshments 174 

Mrs. Jones, milliner - - - - 18 
Hayward, printer, account and supplement 

of paper of meeting - - - 52 18 

Friend, painter - - - - 2 3 

Hancock, carriages - - - 32 15 

„ „ day of election - - 22 18 

French, printer's bill - - - 31 13 

Philip Finnis, rope - - - - 34 7 

George Finnis, rope - - - - 32 17 

R. Gibbons, small poles - - - 15 19 

Pittock, draper - - - - 21 16 

Redman, linings - - - - 7 

Thompson, cord - - - - 3 

Chittenden, ribbon and making - - 3 

Venier, rope .... 1 

Clarabut, cambric, &c. - - - 7 

Britten, ,,---- 2 

Nash, hire of capstan stand . - - 2 

Webb, refreshments - - - - 7 

Woodcock ----- 

W. Ramell, painter - - - - 53 

Baldwin, drapner - - - - 35 10 

Kingsford, twine and line - - - 2 8 

Bristow, hire of spars - - - 14 10 
Francis, draper . . - 
Dyason, line . - - 
Ralph, rope, &c, - 

Per Ramell:— £ s. d. 

Flag poles putting up, &c. - 118 

,, Prince of Wales Terrace 25 

Pockett and Hougham out-voters 7 

W^atchers - - - 11 15 

Taking down stafEs - - 16 10 

Use of capstan ground and materials 8 12 

Blocks, &c. - - - 1 7 



9 

1 

19 



d. 













3 

9 

7 

6 







6 









8 

6 



4 



5 

7 

4 
8 


3 
3 
6 

11 
6 
1 

10 

8 
6 
2 





8 







Per Mr. E. CJomwell :— 
Messengers 

Personating agents, clerks, 
&c., guides, poll clerks, 
and conunittee room 

ClfiPKfl — — • 

' Out-voters (per T. C. HaU; 
Pilcher, special ^ent 
Bristow, flag-staff 

• Goymcr, services in com- 
mittee room 
Woodcock, repairing lock 
Postage stamps - 
Petty cash, sundries 
Foresters' initiation fee - 

Agent's fee - 



£ s. 
124 2 


d. 



61 17 

15 

5 

2 


6 





12 
5 
5 10 

13 1 
10 





6 
6 



d. 



249 6 6 
125 

jei,479 12 11 



Walker. 

1. Miller, account, carriages 

2. Uookham, painter ... 

3. Pearson, " Queen's Head," central 

committee rooms, and refreshments 

4. B alien, ** Lord Clyde," committee room 

and refreshments . . - 

5. Axon, "Army and Navy," committee 

room and refreshments 

6. Morris, " Life Boat," committee room 

and refreshments - - * . 

7. Minter, " Drum," committee room and 

refreshments - . - 

8. Dewell, committee room and refresh- 

ments - - - . 

9. West, " Wellesley Arms," refreshments 

10. Minter, Upper Walmer, carriages 

11. Knight. 

12. Ayers, „ 

13. Pointer & Co., drapers - 

14. G. Woodcock, „ - 

15. C. M. Woodcock, „ - 

16. Beard, paper and envelopes 

17. Foreman, biscuits 

18. Loyns & Co., drapers - - - 

19. Martin, for work - . - 

20. Ansell, boards, &c. 

21 . Hambrook, for work - . . 

22. Webb, hire of shop 

23. Minter, fixing booth - ^ . 

24. Verrier, rope for poles - . - 

25. Trollope, lure of poles - - . 

26. Sinmions, paint . - - 

27. W^iffen „ ... 

28. Golds & Co., Upper Walmer, drapers - 
Mr. Rose, W^almer, account of sundries 



£ s, 

44 11 

9 12 


d, 
6 



41 18 


4 


11 10 






12 3 

•11 19 6 

11 1 



-188 4 



12 


8 





18 19 


4 


9 13 


6 


2 


7 





4 


13 





9 16 10 


2 


17 


9 


1 


3 


9 


17 


8 





6 10 


3 


12 


3 


2 15 





3 


5 


9 


1 


2 





15 





18 





20 


6 





3 


3 





1 


8 


4 





15 





19 


2 


3 


306 


6 


8 


^596 


8 


3 



APPENDIX 0. 



Rbtuen of Expenses ok behalp of Sie Julian Goldsmid, Bart., May, 1880. 



Deal and Warmer. 

For committee rooms — Deal 

„ —Walmer - 
Printer's bill, Hayward 
Carriages, Hancock - - - 

Messengers, personating agents, committee 

rooms, clerks and assistants — Deal 
Walmer ditto 

Postage stamps, &c. ... 



£ s. 
54 
12 
52 18 
30 

220 4 

69 18 

6 5 



d. 



4 


6 
10 

6 



i?445 7 2 



Received by the Returning Officer, September 17th, 1880. 



Sandwich. 

Committee rooms - - - - 

Conveyances and carriage hire 
Printing, postages, telegrams, &c. - 
Railway fares - - - 

Messengers, polling and personating clerks, 
and watchers - - - - 

Bill posting . - - - 

Canvassers and petty expenses 
Personal expenses - - - - 

Returning officer - - - - 

Agent's f ee - 
Committee clerks - - - - 



£ 


s. 


d. 


55 








10 18 





38 


1 


11 


8 








51 





6 


6 








40 








48 


17 


3 


70 


8 


3 


100 








15 








€443 5 11 



(Signed) Edmund Brown, 

Agent for Election Ei^nses. t 



Jigitized by VnOOQlC 



xxvm 



APPENDIX D. 



Return of Expenses on behalp op Tub Right Honourable E. H. Knatchbull 

HUGESSBN AND Me. HeNBY A. BbASSEY. 



General Election, March 1880. 



Sandwich. 



Griffin and Shaw and Sons, printing 
Railway news, publishinf^ addresses - 
Woodruff, canvass books and services 
Ewell, polling sheets, &c. 
Rose, canvass books and services 
Woodcock, polling sheets, &c. 
Nazer, bill posting - - - 

Hunter and Pearson, committee rooms 
Woodruff, clerks, messengers, &c. - 
Filmer, •* Bell Hotel" 
Minter and Daniells, carriage hire - 
Baker, stamps and petty disbursements 



Returning officer's expenses - - - 

Agency, Messrs. Emmersou & Co., Hugessen 
The like „ Brassey - 



£ 

11 

2 

9 

3 



d. 
9 



6 


2 

6 15 5 

13 6 

34 12 1 



11 

9 9 



4 16 
6 11 


6 
2 


114 3 


5 


49 19 
100 
100 







.€364 2 


6 



Deal and Walmer. 

Hayward, printer - - . . 

Goymer, copy register - - . 

French, register - . . . 

Willoughby, " Queen's Hotel " 

Denne, ** Star and Garter Hotel " - 

Hancock, for carriages ... 

Bent, bill poster 

Preparing canvass books, circulars, addresses, 
making up and delivering addresses, &c. 
and preparing for election and incidental 
expenses ..... 

Agency, Messrs. Mercer Edwards and Co. - 



Edmund Brown, 

Election Expenses Agent. 
Received by the Retiuniug Officer, 
September 20th, 1880. 



£ s. 


d. 


22 8 


6 


10 





4 2 


2 


13 18 


6 


13 11 


6 


9 14 





2 





24 2 


6 


100 





£199 17 


2 



LONDON: 
Printed by Georoe Edwabd Etbb and Wuxiam Sfottiswoode, 
Printers to the Qaeen's most Excellent Msj«Bty. 
For Her Mi^esty's Stationery Office. 



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REPORT 



OF 



THE COMMISSIONERS 



APPOINTED UNDER HER MAJESTY'S ROYAL SIGN MANUAL 



TO INQUIRE INTO THE 



EXISTENCE OF CORRUPT PRACTICES 



IN THE 



BOROUGH OF SANDWICH. 



II-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



WtvttmWt to fiotH fnamf* of Vairliamntt tjf UtommtmXi of ^itv ffuimv. 




LONDON:. 

PRINTED BY GEORGE KDWARD EYRE AND WILLIAM SPOTTISWOODE, 
FRINTER& TO THK QUEEN'S MOST EXCELUCKT KAJSSTT. 

FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. 



1881. 



[C— 2796.-I.1 Frice 4a. 3rf. 



Digitized by 



Google 



;w^Vf^- 



Digitized by 



Google 



L ■ Y^if^' 



LIST OF WITNESSES. 



Abbott, George • - 


- 174 


Adams, Edward Gabriel Alexander 


• 254 


Adams, Jack - • • • 


. 172 


Adams, John Lemon • • 


. 165 


Acbms, Thomas - « 


. 143 


AIImi, Cuhner William . • 


- 371 


Allen, Stephen - ' • 


• 170 


Alien, Thomas Winston 


- 138 


Allen, William «. • 


. 246 


Alten, WUliam Valentine *i 


• 255 


AmcBSy Henrj Bamell « « 


- 170 


Amos, Greorge « • « • 


- 153 


Amos, Henry , • « « 


. 365 


ABdTei¥s, Robert « p - « 


. 244 


Anderson, John • « « 


- 217 


Andrews, John • • • 


- 200 


Annall, John Batt 


- 376 


Appieton, William 


- 371 


Arberry, Joseph • n • 


- 376 


Archer^ J<^n Qajson « • • 


- 371 


Archer, Robert • • • 


. 215 




- 161 


Ai^er,.Stephen Greorge « • 


. 256 


Archer; WilHam Hills • • 


- 297 


Arnold, James - « « * « 


. 290 


Arter, Thomas - * 


- 166 


Ashington, John Henry 


- 240 


Aihington, Robert Henry • • 


- 243 


Ashton, Henry • • ^ 


- 372 


Aflshington, Thomas William « 


. ^48 


Atkins, Barnes • • • ■ 


- 195 


Annall, Trederick Batt 


. 290 


Austin,, Qiles • - • • 


- 209 


Anrtin, John * * ^ • 


- 161 


Am, Samuel • ; r -* . ■ 


- 168 




- 365 


Axon, David - <• • • 


- 125 


Axon, Henry David - • • 


• 258 


Axon, Henry * • • ■ 


- 168 


Axon, James - . . 


- 90 


Baber, Thomas - 


- 290 


Bailey, Benjamin - • 


. 160 


Bwley, Charles* - * 


• 273 


Bailey, Greorge, Sandwich • 


. 188 


Bailey, George, King Street - 


- 224 


Bailey, George, Wellington Road 


• 256 


Bailey, James - . - • 


- 217 


Bailey Thomas 


- 216 


Bailey, Redman 


. 213 


Bailey, William, Middle Street 


- 217 


Bailey, William, Gladstone Bioad 


- 236 


Baker, Charles^ Sandwich « 


■ - 225 


Backer, Charles^ Walmer 


- 238 


Ba&er, Henry Minter - - • 


- 278 


Baker, Frederick * 


- 290 


Baker, James Thomas, -Zotr^ Walmer 


- 201 


Baker, James Thomas,. York Street - 


• 365 


Baker, James Wales - 


- 282 


Baker, John ,. j» - . 


- 297 


Baker, John William - 


- 161 


Baker, Richard 


284,285 


Baker, Thomas, Crown Court - 


• 289 


Baker, Thomas, MiddU Street 


- 240 


Bales, Thomas- ^ 


- 149 


Baldwin, John - » 


- 260 


Baldwin, Theophilus Collins - 


- 106 


Ballard, Edward 


187, 188 


Barnes, Thomas 


. 176 


Bartlctt, Henry 


• 254 


Bartlett, William 


- 365 


Barrett, Henry 


. 365 


Barwick, James 


- 371 


Q 3834^ Wt P1863. 
• — * - 





BatcheU, Robert - - - - 203 

Bas6ett,John - • • • « 259 

Bax, Robert - • - • - 241 

Bayly, Greorge - - « • - 198 

Bayley, Henry - - ^ - 297 

Bayley,John r ? • - - 297 

Bayley, Robert Lon§ - • ' - - 259 

Baynes, John Francis • . • • - 208 

Beal, Henry ... - 249,298 

Beal, James - - • • - 177 

Beal, Richard - - • - - 169 

Bean, John - - - - . 386 

Bean, William r - • - - 195 

Beck, WiUiam 284 

Bedwell, George Thomas - - - 382 

Bedwell, John 201 

Bedwell, Thomas Frederick - - - 143 

Beecham, William - - - - 218 

Beeching, Charles - • - - 252 

Beer, William - - - - - 251 

BeervUle, John - - ^ - 260 

Belsey, Francis Flint - • • - 312 

Best, James -?••"* ^"^1 

Beney, John Jumes • • • - 239 

Bennett, James. • ♦ • - 159 

Bent, Thomas 7 • - - - 85 

Berry, Thomas - - - - 158 

Berwick, Edward ^ - - - 201 

Berwick, John - - - - - 181 

Berwick, Thomas - - - - 205 

Berwick, Richard - - - - 156 

Berwick, William - - - - 248 

Betts, John William - - • - 142 

Betts, Richard Atherden, West Street - - 205 

Betts, Richard Atherden, Por^/ancf Terrace - 212 

Betts, Robert Thomas r - - - 236 

Betts, William Robert, Alexandra Cottages - 2^ 

Betts, William Robert, Griffen Street - - 252 

Bingham, Jamea Files - - - - 171 

Bingham, Thomas - - - - 291 

Birch, GUbert 271 

Bird, Henry - ^ " - - 209 

Bird, James ----- 169 

Bishop, John, Upper Deal - - 138, 198 

Bishop, John, Church Street - - - 262 

Bishop, George - - - - 197 

Bishop, Slodden • • - - 268 

Blackburn, John - - - - 295 

Blackburn, William - - - - 267 

Blissenden, Stephen - - - - 291 

Blown, James - - - - 159 

Blown, William - - - - 176 

Blyth, Henry - - * - 176 

Bolwell, James r • - - 155 

Bond, Henry .- - - - 168 

Bowbyes, James - ' - - 5? 36 

Bowles, Allen - - - - 221 

Bowles, Thomas - - - - 215 

Bowles, John . - - - 288 

Bowles, William - - - 175,2-58 

Boyer, William - - - " ;p 

Brabourne, Lord - - - - ^^'S 

Brassey, Henry A. - • - - 376 

Brazier, John ... - ^66 

Brett, George - . -. . 283 

Brett, James .... 230 

Brett, Robert - - - . - •;02 

Brett, William, Sandwich - - - 270 

BvattyWiWitcoi^ Silver Street - - - 371 

Brenchley, Edward - . - 28(5 

Bright, Richard Henry - - - 189 

Brisley, Thomas - - - 208, 872 



Digitized 



gy Google 



IV 



Bridge, Edward Law 
Bristowe, Edward 
Bnstow, Harrj Heron Strouts 
Bri8tow, Stephen 
Brooker, John 
Brooksbr, William 
Brown, Edmund 
Brown^ George 
Brown, John 
Brown, John Miarsh - 
Brown, Thomas Greorgel 
* Brown, Redman - 

Brown, Sarah 
Brown, James Thomas - 
Brown, William", Upper Deal 
Brown, William, Farrier Street 
Brown, William^ Upper VTalmer 
Brown, Walter Penfield 
Browning:, Will|am 
Brudeneli, Thomas 
Bullen, Edward - 

Bullen, John 
Bullen, Robert - 

Bullen, Thomas 
BuUan, William 
Bullen, William Thomas 
Burohelt, John 
Burley, Valentme 
Burnap, Frank ' 
Bumap, Richard John - 
Burnap, William 
Bums, John 
Burton, George Richard 
BurtoUf Thomas Aaron 
Burton, William 
Burton, Zachariah 
Bushell, Henry 
Bushell, John 
Bushell, James 
Bushell, Richard 
Bushell, WiUiam, York Street 
Bushell, William, Upper Watmer 
Bushell, Walter Dixon - 
Bushell, William Thomas 
Bushell, WiUiam Wflkins 
Bnsin, John 
Butler, William 
Butresii, George 
Buttress, James Thomas 
Buttress, John Thomas 
Buttress, Thomas 
Cannej, Edward 
Cannej, George 
Cannicut, Richard 
Capps, John Hatch 
Carlton, George 
Carpenter, George 
Carpenter, John 
Carrowaj, Jeremiah 
Carvey, Harry 
Caspell, Frederick John Thomas 
Caspell, Henry James - 
Castle, Joseph 
Castle, James 
Castle, John - 
Castle, William 
Cattermole, Henry 
Cave, John 

Cavell, Albert Alphonse 
Cavell, Charles Upton 
Cavell, Edward Brooksby 
Cavell, Edward 
Cavell, Frederick 
Chandler, Elgar 
Chandler, James, Nelson Street 
Chandler, James, senior 
Chandler, Thomas 
Chapman, Henry 
Chapman, William Ashby 
Chawner, Henry 
Chidwick, Robert 



128. 



371, 372 

- 160 
. 225 
. 225 
. 252 

- 372 

- 276 
. 372 
. 166 

178, 206, 207 

• 250 

- 366 
. 179 
. 293 

- 197 

- 242 
. 204 

- 202 

- 1^ 
. 215 

- 181 
. 219 

- 181 

- 218 

- 124 
162 

- 186 

- 267 

- 297 

- 366 
. 199 

- 382 
. 372 
. 366 
. 194 

- 191 

• 289 
. 197 

- 230 

- 298 

- 215 

- 130 
. 366 
. 382 
. 298 

- 251 

- 246 

- 213 

• 252 

• 382 
. 251 

215, 266 

- 164 

- 211 

- 372 

- 267 
. 266 

- 368 

- 214 
238, 376 

- 145 

- 291 
• . 152 

- 156 
. 190 
. 273 

- 247 

- 212 

- 258 

- 373 
. 373 

- 366 

- 217 

- 198 

- 247 

- 386 

- 248 
. 269 

- 97 

- 256 
. 159 



Cliiity, Harry - 
Claringbold, Alfred 
Claringbold, Charles 
Claringbold, Michael - 
Claringbold, Philip 
Clark, James - 
Clayson, Hi^lor William 
Cleroente, John 
Clements, WilliUm * 
Ooad, Alfred •« 
Cloke, Frederick Spenoer 
Cloke, Isaac - • 

Clover, George * *' 

Cockings, Richftrd « 
Coleman, Benjabiin Lodgdon 
Coleman, Edwaf d « 

Coleman, Frederick « 
Coleman, Greorg^ * 

Coleman, James ^ 

Coleman, John " * 

CoUard, Charles ' 

Collins, Edward Duncan 
Cook, Henry * * 

Cook, John * ♦ 

Cooper, Stephen 
Conley, Henry • *• 

Conley, Willianf -r 

Constant, Thomas Jdur 
Corey, Richard " ♦ 

Corey, Thomas •Willianr 
Corey, William Henry * 
Cork, Edward Henry « 
Cork, lliomas « * • 

Comweil, Edwin , • 
Couldenr, Robert Julian 
Court, Henry • 
Cox^ Charles - • 

Cox, Thomas • • 

Cox, William Richard » 
Cox, John - • 

Craker, John « • 

Cribben, Thomas, Beach Street 
Cribben, Thomas, Dolphin Street 
Cribben, George 
Cribben, William 
Crickett, Richard 
Chittenden, Jaines McClorthy 



Crompton-Roberts, Charles Henry 304, 315, 358, 362 

Cross, Robert - • 

Cross, Thomas •• * 

Cuffley, Samueh » 

Curling-, Alfred* • 

Curling, CbarleB Henry 

Curling, Edward Morris 

Curling, Edward • 

Curling, Frederick • 

Curling) Thomas *• 

Curling, William, Upper Deal 

Curiing, WilUam, Mill Road 

Cushney, John - * 

Cushney, Williaim i^ 

Dadd, William « 

Darby, Edward Danby * 

Darby, Edward Hunter 

Davidson, Joshua 

Dawkins, George • 

Dawson, John - »• 

Dean, William • 

Dear, William - 

Denham, Joseph 

Denham, Joseph Vincent 

Denne, Charles 

Denne, George Henry * 

Denne, John • 

Denne, William Greorge 

Desormeaux, Thomas Walter 

Dessent, John - 

Devell, James William 

Deverson, John •• 

Deverson, William * 

Dewell, John - - r> - ■ ■ 

Digitized by 



• 373 

- 367 

- 181 

- 215 

- 196 

- 270 

- 2^ 

- 214 

- 216 

- 292 

- 69 

- 269 

- 154 

• 378 

- 26 

- 21S 

- 176 

- 278 

• 174 

• 174 

• 204 

- 296 

- 246 

- 297 

• 214 

• 374 

- 892 

• 171 
. 878 

- 249 

• 295 
187, 188 

• 876 
79,226 

- 874 

• 878 

- 184 

- 155 

• 224 

• 218 
157, 874 

. 228 

. 296 

. 296 

- 298 

- 193 

- 127 



214, 155 

. 868 

- 158 

- 197 

- 247 

- 154 
. 173 
. 236 

- 210 
. 195 

• 256 
. 197 
. 166 
. 147 
. 368 

• 170 
. 151 
. 154 
. 874 
. 287 

- . . 867 

. 255 

. 250 

98, 104 

. 149 

- 146 

- 145 
. 243 
. 176 

- 216 

- 205 

Google 



>8i 



Dixon, Joseph - * . . 


163, 256 


Dixon, John Robert ... 


- 368 


Dixon, Thomas 


. 288 


Donovan, Cornelius Charles 


- 375 


Drayson, Douglas ... 


- 286 


Drayson, John 


- 192 


Drew, Edward William- 


- 151 


Drew, Henry - . - . 


- 201 


Drew, John - - - - 


. 175 


Driver, George ... 


- 195 


Drury, Edward . - . 


- 224 


Drury, William 


- 195 


Dufiy, Thomas 


- 252 


Dunn, John - - - . 


- 212 


Dunn, William, Upper Deal - 


- 282 


Dunn, William, Beach Street - 


- 170 


Dunn, William Thomas 


- 270 


Durban, Henry Cavell - . - 


- 296 


Durban, John - - - - 


- 265 


Durban, James ... 


- 374 


Durban, William 


- 237 


Eagle, Alfred William - 


- 374 


Eastes, Benjamin Silvester 


. 224 


East, Henry .... 


- 182 


East, Henry Ellis 


- 260 


East, William . . - - 


- 260 


Eastman, John 


. 374 


Edwards, James Barber - 59, 178, 205, 277 


Elgar, William Spratt - 


- 368 


Ellen, David .... 


- 153 


EUender, George . - - 


- 242 


EUender, Sampson - - . 


- 270 


Elliott, George 


- 199 


Elliott, Henry 


- 146 


Elliott, Mrs. Sarah 


- 156 


EUis, Wniiam - . - . 


- 272 


Elsden, John - - - . 


- 292 


Elsden, Thomas 


- 201 


Emmerson, Richard Joynes 


9, 23, 280 


England, Francis ... 


- 203 


Epps, George - - - 


- 284 


Epps, Thomas - - - - 


- 264 


Epps, William ... 


- 262 


Epps, William Edward 


- 262 


Epsley^ George ... 


- 248 


Epsley, Thomas - - . 


- 239 


Erridge, Henry ... 


- 144 


Erridge, James John - - - 


- 159 


Erridge, Ralph ... 


- 143 


Erridge, Thomas . . - 


- 196 


Evans, Charles 


- 101 


Ewell, Alfred 


- 874 


Ewell, Frederick 


- 374 


Ewell, Henry 


- 284 


Fag^, WUliam 


- 185 


Farrier, Edward . - - 


- 268 


Farrier, George, Sandwich 


267, 288 


Farrier, George, Upper Deal - 


- 199 


Farrier, George Edward 


- 264 


Farrier, John • - - * - 


- 220 


Farrier, William - 


- 286 


Fear, George . - - - 


- 245 


Ferrier, Robert ... 


- 190 


Ferris, John .... 


- 220 


Field, William 


- 264 


Fifes, Stephen, Middle Street - 


- 214 


Files, Stephen, Durham Place 


- 221 


Files, Thomas Jarvis - - - 


- 213 


Files, John - - - - 


- 167 


Finnis, George Wells - . - 


- 220 


Finnis, John - - - 


. 239 


Unnis, luijram ... 


- 273 


Finnis, John Belsey - - - 


- 272 


Finnis, Philip John . - - 


- 223 


Finnis, Thomas Homsby, Toy Place - 


- 150 


Finnis, Thomas Homsby, ''The Fox;'North End 131 


Finnis, William 


- 375 


Finnis, William Henry 


- 257 


Fittall, George 


. 151 


Firmingcr, Alfred - - 


- 369 


Q8d34. 





Firminger, Edward Henry 


- 537 


Firrainger, Stephen 


- 396 


Fisher, Frederick 


- 151 


Flanders, Robert 


. 161 


Flower, Henry Joseph 


- 153 


Foord, Charles Ross 


299, 314 


Foord, Eldred - 


- 204 


Foord, John Jloss 


-' 330 


Foster, David William - 


- 159 


Foster, Henry ... 


- 248 


Foster, John - - - 


- 252 


Foster, John Ashley - 


100,92 


Foulgate, William 


- 375 


Foy, Charles - 


. 298 


Foy, James ... 


- 212 


Franklin, William Henry 


- 95 


Francis, Henry 


- 240 


Francis, Henry Alfred 


- 147 


French, Herbert 


. 260 


Friend, George 


- 224 


Friend, John 


. 196 


Friend, John (Jeorge - 


- 383 


Friend, John William - 


164, 253 


Friend, Leonard Thomas 


- 299 


Friend, Thomas 


- 269 


Friend, William, Arh Lane 


- 20O 


Friend, William, Exchange Street 


- 237 


Friend, William Benjamin 


- 392 


Friend, William Langley 


• 202 


Frost, Henry Gandar - 


- 130 


Frost, WUliam 


- 252 


Putter, James - ' 


- 248 


G^mbrilt, Richard 


- 201 


Grambrill, Thomas 


- 244 


Gardiner, Edward 


- 152 


Gardiner, John 


- 221 


Grarrett, Richard 


- 234 


Gibbons, John 


- 272 


Gibbons, Kenrick Augustus 


. 368 


Gibbons, Richard 


- 130 


GibsoB, Edward 


- 271 


Gilchrist, Andrew 


- 292. 


Gilham James 


. 198 


Gillow, Richard 


227, 293 


Gillow, William 


- 282 


Giles, Thomas Valentine 


- 185 


Gimber, William 


- 215 


Gisby, James - - - 


- 244 


Goddard, Joseph 


- 201 


Goddard, William 


- 200 


Goldfinch, Charles 


155, 241 


Groldfinch, Edwin 


- 238 


Groldsack, Henry 


. 288 


Goldsack, Richard 


- 197 


Groldsmid, Sir Julian - 


107, 335 


Goodban, George 


- 260 


Goodban, Stephen Arthur 


- 250 


Groodban, Thomas 


- 152 


Goodboume, Thomas - 


- 153 


Goodchild, William Richard - 


- 221 


Gosley, James John - 


- 375 


Goss, Francis - . - 


- 211 


Goymer, John 


. 247 


Groymer, Thomas Trott 


- 224 


Grant, Henry - - - 


. 290 


Grant, John Chapman 


- 176 


Grant, William 


- 158 


Grant, Richard 


- 236 


Graves, James 


. 375 


Graves, William 


- 375 


Gray, George ... 


- 249 


Greedy, Robert 


- 164 


Green, James Edward 


- 375 


Greey, James Edward - 


- 


Grigg, Edward 


. 291 


Grigg, John G. . - 


- 291 


Griggs, George 


- 376 


Giifi^y Jo^» - 


- 260 


Gunner, William 


175,257,356 



Digitized by 



Cbogl* 






Gurr, John - - - 


- 376 


Hall, Charles, North End 


- 236 


Hall, Charles, Walmer Road - 


. 218 


Hall, Greorge Lancelot - 


- 368 


Hall, Henry - 


- 157 


Hall, James . - . 


- 223 


HaU, James Frederick - 


- 238 


HaU, Richard Alfred - 


- 212 


Hall, Thomas - 


. r58 


Hall, Thomas Cave - 


233, 234 


Hambrook, John 


- 196 


Hambrook, Edward Thomas - 


- 259 


Hambrook, Thomas 


- 249 


Hamilton, John 


386, 396 


Hammond, James 


. 267 


Hammond William 


. 386 


Hammond, William Henry 


. 205 


Hancock, William North 


: - 139 


Hanger, Edward 


. 250 


Hanger, George N. 


- 218 


Hanger, Henry 


- 249 


Hanger, John Gwillam 


- 237 


1 are, William - 


. 395 


- 155 


Harbonr, Robert 


. 236 


Harlow, William 


. 267 


Harper, Thomas 


- 359 


Harris, Patrick 


. 140 


Harrison, Francis R.- 


. 258 


Harrison, Henry 


- 191 


Harvey, Hezekiah 


- 262 


Harvey, James 


- 262 


Harvey, Jesse - - - 


- 386 


Hai-vey, James Edward 


- 282 


Hawkesworth, Samuel 


- 386 


Hayman, John 


- 234 


Hayman, Richard 


. 242 


Hayman, Richard Henry 


- 253 


Hayman, Robert Greorge 


- 387 


Hayman, William Henry 


- 124 


Hayward, G-eorge 


- 240 


Hajrward, Henry 


- 2c9 


Hayward, Edward 


. 208 


Hawkes, Thomas 


197, 220 


Hawkins, Andrew 


- 213 


Helman, Thomas 


. 387 


Helman, William 


- 272 


Hendrick, William 


- 267 


Hider, Greorge William 


- 387 


Hill, John 


- 298 


Hill, Richard - 


- 387 


Hills, Edwm - 


- 274 


Hoare, James Rolls 


- 360 


Hobbs, Charles 


255, 394 


Hobbs, David - - ' - 


- 216 


Hocken, John « - - 


- 160 


Hodges, John - - - 


- 267 


Hobday, WiUiam 


- 200 


Hogben, John . - - 


- 231 


Hoile, Daniel - - - 


. 267 


Hoile, Edward 


- 266 


Hoile, Richard 


- 283 


Hoile, Stephen, Walmer Road - 


- 119 


Hoile, Stephen, Upper Deal - 


- 198 


Hoile, William, />i7o^ - 


- 141 


Hoile, William, Cambridge Road 


. 369 


Holbom, Robert Thomas 


- 212 


Holgate, Simon 


- 292 


Holliday, John 


- 197 


Hofliday, Edward 


- 288 


Holmans, Job - - - 


- 268 


Holness, George 


- 161 


Holness, William 


. 163 


Holton, William 


- 198 


Hood, Robert - 


. 146 


Hook, George - - - 


- 257 


Hooper, Greorge- 


- 182 


Hookham, Walter Thomas 


- 250 


Hopkins, Henry 


272, 285 


Homer, Benjamin 


- 242 



vi 








Home, William B. 


* 


* 


- m 


Honess, Frederick 


- 


- 


- 145 


Home, James - 


. 


. 


• 148 


Howard, William 


. 


. 


- 295 


Howlett, George 


- 


. 


- 217 


Hougham, Edward 


- 


. 


- 176 


Hougham, Edwin 


- 


. 


177, 368 


Huckstep, Thomas 


. 


. 


■ 271 


Hughes, Edwin 


- 


-338, 


355, 362 


Hughes, John- 


- 


- 


- 369 


Hughes, William John - 


- 


. 


183, 193 


Hughes, Robert 


- 


- 


1S9-222 


Hubbard, Thomas 


. 


. 


- 204 


Hulke, Frederick Thomas 


- 


. 


- 363 


Hull, William - 


. 


. 


- 272 


Hunter, William 


. 


. 


- 387 


Hurrun, John 


. 


_ 


- 223 


Huson, Henry - 


. 


. 


169, 172 


Huxtep, Mrs. Harriett 


- 


- 


- 295 


Huxstep, Stephen 


- 


. 


- 250 


Inkpen, Edwin 


• 


- 


- 387 


Irvine, William, Coppen Street - 


. 


- 144 


Irvine, William, Oak Street 


• 


. 


- 225 


Jacobs, James Alfred - 


- 


. 


■ 282 


James, John Samuel 


- 


■ - 


- 385 


James, John 


- 


- 


- 387 


Jamieson, James John - 


- 


- 


- 269 


Jarman, William 


- 


. 


- 215 


Jarvis, Greorge Thomas- 


- 


- 


■ 247 


Jarvis, William 


- 


- 


- 195 


Jeffery, William 


- 


. 


- 200 


Jenner, Greorge 


- 


- 


- 216 


Jennings, Edward 


- 


- 


- 387 


Jennings, John 


- 


- 


- 387 


Jezzard, Greorge 


- 


- 


- 270 


Jezzard, Thomas 


- 


. 


- 270 


Job, William George - 


• 


• 


- 287 


Job, Thomas - 


- 


. 


- 241 


Johnson, Andrew H. - 


. 


. 


- 256 


Johnson, Frederick Gieorge 


- 


. 


- 273 


Jolin, Edward- - 


- 


- 


- m 


Jones, Thomas - 


- 


- 


- 269 


Jones, Richard 


- 


- 


- 288 


Jones, Robert WiQiam - 


- 


. 


- 84 


Jordan, Francis Edward 


. 


. 


- 164 


Jordan, James - 


- 


• 


- 266 


Jordan, Richard 


• 


- 


- 196 


Jordan, William, Sandwich 


. 


. 


- '294 


Jordan, William, North End 


- 


- 


- 395 


Joy, Silas Greorge 


- 


. 


- 388 


Kemp, Edward 


- 


- 


- 254 


Kemp, George 


- 


. 


- 207 


Kemp, Henry 


- 


. 


- 262 


Kemp, Thomas 


- 


• 


- 272 


Kemp, William 


- 


• 


- 175 


Kenney, Richard 
Kent, Henry 


. 


• 


- 169 


- 


• 


• 388 


Kenton, John 


• 


« 


- 265 


Kenton, William 


• 


. 


- 266 


Kerrrison, William 


- 


• 


- 217 


Kidner, Thomas 


- 


- 


- 38a 


Knight, James 


- 


• 


- 268 


Knight, John Thomas - 


- 


. 


- 388 


Knight, Richard Valentine 


- 


• 


- 255 


Knowler, John 


. 


• 


- 273 


Knowler, William 


- 


• 


- 260 


Knowles, Henry 


- 


- 


- 268 


Korf, Frederick 


- 


. 


- 177 


Kynaston, Edward 


- 


• 


- 361 


Ladd, John 


- 


. 


- 251 


Laggett, John 
Laker, John 


- 


- 


- 219 


. 


. 


- 369 


Laker, Stephen 


. 


• 


• 389 


Lambert, Adam CoUard 


- 


- 


- 247 


Lambert, Richard John 


- 


- 


- 213 


Ijambert, William Gray 


- 


m 


141, 210 


Langley, George, Cannon Street 


. 


- 242 


Langley, George, Sandwich 


- 


- 


- 270 


I-aDgtey> James 


- 


- 


. 266 


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Google 

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^^gl«y> John 


. 271 


langlej, Thomas, Xeison Street • • 259 


LBnglej, Tliomas, Sandwich 


- 271 


Larking, Murrty 


. 168 


LarkinSy Willism 


- 247 


Langtree, James 


- 268 


Lawrence, George, I'ark Streei 


. 233 


Lawrence, CJeorge, Sandwich 


- 269 


Lawrence, Greoi^ DaVid 


- 389 


Lawrence, Henry 


• 244 


Lawrence, John 


- 289 


Lawrence, Richard 


- 201 


Lawrence, Thovias 


. 261 


Lawrence, William Bowling 


- 202 


Leach, Daniel 


- 198 


Ledner, James 


- 274 


Ladnef, John 


- 298 


Lee, Charles 


- 261 


Lee, Frederick 


- 253 


Lee, Joseph 


- 260 


Lee, Pliilpott Rutley - 


- 134 


Lewis, Greorge Henry - 
License, WilUam 


117, 304, 330 


. 174 


Lincoln, Thomas 


. 383 


Line, Charles 


. 267 


Lock, Greorge 


182, ?64, 283 


Loek, William 


. 182 


Long, Baily - 


. 389 


Long, Charles - 


- 262 


Long, Edmund Frederick 


- 204 


Long, John Austin 


- 223 


Longhorst, George 


- 249 


Lore, William 


217, 236 


Lowndes, (Seorge 


- 265 


Lownds, Etobert Ramell 


. 203 


Loyns, Samuel 


99, 225 


Lneller, Samuel 


- 213 


Luff, Mary Ann 


. 186 




- 293 


Macey, Edwin 


- 389 


Macey, George John - 


- 148 


Macey, John William • 


. 203 


liacey, William John • 


• 395 


Mackie, Henry William 


. 391 


Mackie, William Burvill 


. 132 


Mackins, George Edward 


- 215 


Mackins, George Hills 


. 257 


Mackins, John Thomas 


- 124 


Magee, George Pordige 


. 251 


Magee, William Pordige 


- 178 


Manning, Isaac 


- 391 


Mannings, Thomas 


191,270 


Mantle, Stephen 


- 272 


ifflfltle, William 


- 284 


Marley, George 


. 165 


Marlow, James Thomad 


- 209 


Marsh, Henry, Beach Street * 


125, 210 


Marsh, Henry, North Street • 


- 249 


Marsh, George Richard 


- 159 


Marsh, Joseph Gardner 


- 296 


Marsh, Thomas, Dolphin Street 


. 240 


Marsh, Thoma?, Lower- Walmer 


- 288 


Marsh, Thomas, Middle Deal - 


- 394 


Marsh, William 


- 210 


Marsh, William John - 


- 210 


MaiRball, WilUam, ''Black Hor^ 


e" - - 156 


Marshall, William, Duke Street 


- 256 


Mason, Thomas 


- 239 


jKattliewp, Jacob George 


. 259 


jifatthews, Thomas 


. 218 


^axfield, John 


. 199 


^/ixted, George 


- 243 


ifaxted, George, Watts' Alley- 


. 369 


Muted, Joseph, Upper JValmei 


. 258 


Maxwell, Samuel 


- 220 


3far, Henry - 


- 225 


J^ar, Henry William 


. 250 


May, .Joi=:cp]i 


. 289 


^ay, .Johi, 


. 175 


^ay, JoUn William Marsh 


> 158 



May, Thomas • 


• 161 


Mead, Horatio ... 


. 196 


Meakings, Greorge - . • 


. 391 


Meakins, Wilb'am 


- 219 


Medgett, Thomas ... 


. 157 


Mercer, George • . . 


7 


Mercer, Joseph . .* . 


. 213 


Middleton, Thomas ... 


. 255 


Miles, Frederick 


- 213 


Miles, Henry Wise ... 


. 172 


Miles, John Boakes ... 


- 257 


Millani, Henry . • . 


. 391 


Millen, Henry £dward ... 


134, 137 


Millen, John Bullock ... 


- 133 


Miller, William John • 


. 142 


Millgate, John . . « 


249, 298 


Minter, Joseph • 


. 195 


Minter, William Bohert 


- 126 


Moat, Alfred . • . . 


- 267 


Mockett, George 


- 173 


Mockett, Joshua . » . 


* 166 


Mockett, Stephen George 


- 214 


Mockett, Thomas » * . 


. 200 


Mockett, Nicholas * » . 


. 386 


Moon, G^rge William - • - 


. 281 


Moore, Isaac • • * . 


. 259 


Morris, Herbert Henry 


. 241 


Morris, James .... 


223, 201 


Mose, William James Jonathan 


- 143 


Mose, Waiiam Walter - 


- 144 


Moss, William Thomas 


.- 369 


Myhill, George 


- 157 


Myhill, Valentine 


129, 157 


Mulliner, Richard ... 


. 267 


Mummery, Charles - . - 


. 205 


Mumbray, Charles 


. 239 


Mumbray, John MarA 


- 204 


Mumbray, John Hadley 


. 174 


Murphy, James ... 


222, 255 


Nash Mark .... 


. 213 


Nash, Robert . • • . 


- 164 


Neeve, George ... 


. 237 


Neeve, John .... 


• 160 


Neeve, Thomas ... 


. 236 


Neeve, Thomas Henry • 


. 237 


Nethersole, WUKam • 


. 279 


Newing, James » . . 


. 1«1 


Newing, John, 47, Wett Street 


. 253 


Newing, John, 33^ fVest Street 


. 255 


Newing, William 


. 195 


Newsam, Martin . - . 


. 199 


Newton, Benjamin # • . 


- 869 i 


Newton, Benjamin Wallace 


. 369 


Nichobs, James Robert 


• 211 


Nicholas, William 


. 254 


Nightingale, James • . * 
Noble, George .... 


. 292 


. 215 


Noble, John - . . - 


. 391 


Norris, Alfred Henry • - 


- 150 * 


Norris, Edward • • 


• 167 i 


Norris, Grove Ralph . • . 


. 253 ; 
- 239 
. 270 


Norris, Henry Thomas 


Norris, James 


Norris, John Ralph ... 


. 238 


Norris, Norris . - • . 


- 252 


Norris, Thomas * . . 


- 243 


Norris, William, Lower Walm&r ' . 


• 140 


Norris, William, Duhe Street - 


- 210 1 


Norris, William George 


. 140 


Newer, Joseph • . . 


. 247 


Oatrldge, James . - • 


. 389 


Oatridge, William . - - 


- 369 r 


Obree, Frederick Jamea 


• 243 \ 


Obree, Thomas Richards 


' 249 • 


Offen, Cyrus .... 


- 258 \ 


Oldfield, ^'illiam - - . - 


- 269 


Olds, Samuel . - . ^ 


33, 286 


Orrick, Alexander Richard 


- 395 


Osborne, Stephen John 


- 163 


Osborne, William 


. 284 


Digitized by V 


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Oufewii>, John Thomas— 


. 51 


Overton, James, Ccppen Streei 
Overton, James, middle Deal 


N - . 389 


. 389 


Overy, William Henry ' 


. 268 


Overy, William James - 


. 268 


Page, Edward - 


- 272 


Page, John 


- 266 


Paine, Edmund Joshua 


. 250 


Pain, George Edward - 


- 288 


Pain, George Mockett - 


- 287 


Pan til ng, Charles 


- 243 


Parkeis Benjamin 


- - - 283 


Parker, Edward Stephen 


- 370 


Parkerj Harry - 


- 370 


Parker, Joseph Elvery- ' 


- 296 


Pamell, Thomas H. - 


- 265 


Parsons, Edwwrd Frederick 


- 204 


Pay, John 


- 283 


Pearce, Charles 


. 248 


Pearson, Charles Stephen 


- 292 


PeawoB, George 


- 219 


Pearson, Henry 


. 99 


Pearson, John * 


- 244 


Pearson, Samuel ^ 


. 142 


Pearson, Thomas 


- 244 


Pettet, Alexander - 


. 299 


Pettet, Edward 


- 395 


Pettet, Edward <31ay ton 


-*2ll 


Pettet, George - 


224, 243 


Pettet, William 


. 134 


Penn, Robert - 


- 217 


Phillips, George - 


- 390 


Philpott, George, Alexandra C 


attages - - 143 


Philpott, George, Middle Stree 


t - .160 


Philpott^ Joshua Douglas 


- 274 


Philpott, Richard, Middle Stre 


et - - 159 


Philpott, Richard, Beach Streei 


f - -211 


PhUpott, Richard Charles 


- 155 


Philpott, William . - 


- 234 


Phippen, William 


- 248 


Philps, Thomas 


- 133 


Piddock, William 


- 190 


Pierce, Edward 


- 376 


Pierce, Robert - 


- 189 


Pilcher, Thomas 


- 264 


Pitcher, George » • 


- . - 173 


Pitcher, John - - - 


- 209 


Kttock, James 


- 241 


Fittock, John . • « 


- 261 


Pittock, Robert 


- 244 


Pittock, Richard 


- 261 


Pittock, WilHam, tailor 


. 96 


Pittock, WilUam, Sandwich - 


- 261 


Polman, George « • 


- 200 


Poll, John . • ^ 


. 212 


Porter, George -Edward 


123, 282, 389 


Port, David * . . 


- 194 


Poi^t, Thomas - • 


189, 272 


Pott, Greorge • - - 


- 197 


Pott, John Henry - • 


- 391 


Potts, George - - . 


- 140 


Powell, Edward 


- 222 


Pratt, Charles 


- 153 


Prescott, John Lawrenee • 


- 395 


Prescott, Richard Charles 


- 391 


Price, John - . . 


- 158 


Price, James • - » 


- 239 


Pritchard, Stephen 


135, 1S9 


Pysden, Richard - 


- 170 


Quested, William 


- 242 


Ralph, Thomas 


- 384 


RatclifFe, Henry 


. 243 


Ralph, George ~ 


- 136 


Ralph, James - - • 


- 151 


Ralph, John James 


- 102 


Ramell, John Pettet - 


80,96 
- 93 


Ramell, William Henry 


Ratten, James - - - 


- 235 


Rea, Edward - . - 


- 128, 390, 394 



Read, Maris Henry 


. 269 


Read, Richard - 


- 144 


Redding, Henry 


- 391 


Redman, Alphonso James 


- 386 


Reed, Jfimes - j. 


. 233 


Redman, Charles 


- 134 


Redman, Greorge 


- 132 


Redman, Henry 


- 217 


Redman, John, Woheley Terrace - - 161 


Redman, John, George Alley 


- 295 


Redman, James Mundaj 


- 163 


Redman, Robert 


• 150 


Redman, Richard 


- 259 


Redman, Stephen 


- 212 


Redsull, Alfred Henry 


- 249 


Redsull, Edward, Middle Deal 


- 173 


Redsull, Edward, Exchange Street - - 249 


Redsull, Joseph Henry- 


- 240 


RedsuU, Robert 


- 239 


Redsull, Thomas 


• 290 


Revel, Henry - ^ 


- 261 


Revel, WUliam - 


- 261 


Reynolds, Duncan Alexander 


- 150 


Reynolds, George Bangsford 


- 133 


Reynolds, James 


- 262 


Reynolds, Jennings 


. iey 


Reynolds, John- 


.262 


Rich, Williaiii . 


- 167 


Richai*ds, James 


. 234 


Riches, James - 


- 391 


Rigden, Augustus Lougley 


- 271 


Rigden, Alfred William- 


. 284 


Rigden, John - 


. 200 


Riley, Alexander 


- 281 


Riley, Richard - 


- 272 


RUey, William - 


. 137 


Roberts, Charles N. 


- 219 


Roberts, Henry- 


. 297 


Roberts, Henry Abraham 


- 215 


Roberts, John, Sandown Cottai 


7es - - 158 


Roberts^ John, Foster's Alley - 


- 391 


Roberts, James Bryant- 


. 391 


Roberts, John George Brown ■ 


- 296 


Roberts, Richard William 


. 176 


Roberts, William 


. 296 


Roberts, WilUam Thomas 


- 297 


Robinson, Edward William 


- 157 


Robinson, Richard 


. 241 


Robinson, William 


- 254 


Roche, James, junior - 


. 370 


liogers, Alexander 


204, 218 


liogers, Daniel - 


- 203 


Ivogers, George 


- 256 


Rogers, John, Wellington Road 


. 217 


Rogers, John, Sunnyside 


222, 255 


Rogers, Stephen 


- 289 


Ivogers, William 


. 261 


Itolfe, Charles - 


. 286 


Romney, Edward 


. 238 


Romney, William 


. 395 


Rose, Edward Thomas • 


. 55 


Rose, WiUiam - 


- 214 


Rouse, James - - - 


- 255 


Rouse, William - - • 


- 392 


Rye, William - 


- 270 


Sackree, George 


- 190 


Sandp, Henry - - . 


- 396 


Sawyer, Robert- 


- 234 


Sayer, Henry Thomas - 


- 392 


Scovell, Chailes 


- 392 


Selth, Charles Larkins - 


. - 291 


Selth, Richard Hopkins 


. 370 


Selth, Thomas Valentine 


- 238 


Selth, Valentine 


. 297 


Sharp, John - - • 


- 212 


Sharp, Richard- 


221, 262 


Shelvey, Daniel- 


. 181 


Silk, Charles - 


- 288 


Simmon?, Ai-thur Atkins 


- 248 


Di 


gitizedbydOOQl 



IX 



Simmons, Daniel Oeorge Frederick 


- 324 


Simmons, George E.- 


- 392 


Simmons, John, Middle Street - 


- 396 


Simmons, James 


- 204 


Simmons, John, Farrier Street 


- 254 


Simmons, Williams 


- 197 


Simpson, George 


- 237 


Skardon, George, High Street - 


- 167 


Skardon, George, North Wall - 


- 247 


Skardon, Robert 


- 392 


Skardon, Robert John - 


- 162 


Skinner, George 


- 208 


Skinner, John Thomas - 


- 209 


gladder, Henry- 


- 288 


Slanghter, flenrj James 


- 231 


Slaughter, Thomas Arthur 


- 232 


Small, William ... 


- 244 


Smith, Charles, Blenheim Road 


- 209 


Smith, Charles, Upper Deal . 


- 257 


Smith, Clement- 


- 392 


Smith, Daniel . . . . 


- 152 


Smith, Gillinan- . • . • 


- 147 


Smith, George * • • « 


- 240 


Smith, G^rge Richard- • * 


- 162 


Smith, James . i. • . 


- 271 


Smith, James - • • • 


- 2a 


Smith, Joseph . - • . 


- 2»)3 


Smith, John . . ^ . 


- 202 


Smith, Thomas - 


- 242 


Smith, Robert Davies - 


- 256 


Smith, William Gilman- 


- 155 


Smith, Richard Dilnott- 


- 244 


Smithers, Edward 


- 194 


SneUer, James . - • . 


- 367 


SneUer, William, Dolphin Street 


- 298 


Sneller, William, Beach Street • 


- 396 


Snelling, Isaac - • • < 


- 237 


Solley, John Farley 


- 396 


Solley, Stephen John - 

Snoswell, Seth . • • . 


- 392 


. 148 


Solomon, Widter 


- 103 


Spain, Edward - 


- 269 


6ptdn, Edmund Henry - 


- 197 


Spain, Edward Thomas- 


- 248 


Spain, Stephen Thomas- 


- 218 


Spain, Thomas John - 


- 195 


Spain, William - . • . 


- 260 


Sparks, Henry . . . . 


- 290 


Spears, George Frost - 


- 238 


l^>ears, Henry - - - . 


- 84 


Spears, Richard 


- 214 


Spears, Thomas 


- 234 


Spears, William Frost - 


- 86 


Spelling, Joseph - - 


- 370 


Spicer, Frederick 


- 289 


Spicer, Henry, senior^ Princes Street - 


- 171 


Spicer, Henry, jtrntor - 


- 254 


Spicer, James Arthur - 


- 297 


Spicer, John Ralph 


- 289 


Spicer, James - - - - 


- 383 


Spicer, Stephen- - - • 


- 396 


Spicer, Walter • 


- 170 


Spicer, William- - . '- 


- 369 


Spinner, Greorge • - . 


. 173 


Spinner, James . • . 


^ 201 


Spofforth, Samuel • . . 


- 6,18 


Sponder, Frederick - - . 


• 181 


Sprattling, Robert . • . 


- 151 


Stanton, John - • - 


- 250 


Stevens, James • • • 


- 174 


Stokes, Albert 


- 393 


Stokes, John Bradley » • - 


. 295 


Stokes, Richard * . • 


- 292 


St<*c8, William . . . 


- 270 


Stroad, John - • . - 


. 269 


Stunt, George, Robert Street • 


- 218 


Stunt, George, Lower TFalmer - 


. 393 


Stupple, George - , . 


• 295 


Stupple, Henry . • . 


. 267 


Styles, Thomas Heath • • » 


. 273 



Styles, William 


- 273 


Surrage, Thomas Lyddon 


1 


Sutton, George Lnmby 


- 171 


Swain, Herbert 


- 196 


Sweepman, Thomas 


- 267 


Tandy, John Robert Macey 


- 237 


Tandy, Walter 


- £52 


Tandy, WiUiam Thomas 


. 200 


Tapley, Edward 


- 218 


Taylor, John, Qfper Deed 
Taylor, John, Robert Street 


- 197 

- 198 


Terry, Edward 


- 245 


Terry, Frederick 


- 266 


Terry, John 


205, 207 


Terry, WiUiam 


- 151 


Theobald, Thomas 


- 134 


Thomas, John 


- 255 


Thomas, WiUiam Godfrey 


- 357 


Thompsett, Gilham, Cannon Street - . 298 


Thompsett, GiUiam, 53, West Street . - 197 


Thompson, George Freeman 


- 248 


Thompson, John 


. 281 


Thompson, Richard 


- 393 


Thompson, WUliam - 


- 297 


Thurgood, James 


- 298 


Thurlow, George 


- 393 


Tinley, Joshua 


- iC6 


Tinley, Joseph Joshua - 


• - - 195 


Town, George, .50, High Street 


- 144 


Town, George, Sandwich 


- 289 


Town, John - 


- 289 


Town, WUliam - 


. 266 


Ti-aps, Henry - 
Tremeere, WiUiam 


- 261 


- 135 


Trigg, WiUiam 


141, 281 


Trinder, John - 


- 393 


TroUope, James 


- 145 


Trott, Daniel • 


- 209 


Trott, John - 


- 254 


Turner, Charles 


- 269 


Twyman, George 


• - - 255 


Twyman, WUliam Thomas 


- 286 


Tyler, WUliam 


200, 221 


Uden, Thomas 


- 261 


Upton, Henry 


- . - 239 


Upton, Thomas 


- 243 


Usher, J homas James - 


- 75 


Valder, Henry 


- 218 


Vale, Thomas 


- 199 


Verstage, Charles Edwin 


- 393 


Verstage, Charles John 


- 150 


Vickers, Abraham 


- 293 


WaU, Frederick 


- 271 


Wallace, Greorge 


. 212 


WrUer, Henry - 


- 234 


Waller, John Henry - . 


214, 235 


Walker, Henry 


-• 194 


Walker, Henry 


- 201 


Wanstall, George • 


. 392 


WanstaU, James • < 


. 274 


WanstaU, Stephen 


. 273 


WanstaU, Thomas 


- 189 


Ward, Mrs. - 


- 207 


Ware, WUliam 


- 370 


Warner, Frederick 


- 126 


Watts, Stephen Edward 


- 159 


Watts, WUliam 


- 125 


Webb, Charles - 


- 222 


Webb, Thomas 


- 221 


Webb, Wimam 


- 219 


Weekes, James . . » 


- 223 


Wellard, John Orrick - 


- 393 


WeUs, George WUliam 


- 290 


Wells, Henry - 


- 244 


WeUspring, Barnabas - 


.- 157 


West, George 


- 264 


Wheatley, WUliam 


- 393 


White, Alfred Valentine 


- 214 


White, George Rumbolt 


- 162 


White, James - - • 


zedbyGoOQle 


Digit 



White, Thomas 

.Whitnall, Daniel 

Whitnall, Frank 

Whitnall, WUliam 

Wilds, Robert George - 

Wilds, Richard 

Wilds, Stephen 

Wilkins, Henry • 

Willey, Simeon 

Williams, Daniel, Upper Deal - 

Williams, Daniel, Blenheim Boad 

Williams, George 

Williams, Henry, Upper fFaltner 

Williams, Henry, West Street - 

WiUiams, John, SmUh*s Folly 

Williams, John, Peter Street - 

Williams, Robert. 

Williams, Thomas 

Williams, William 

Willis, William 

Willson, Richard 

Wilmshorst, Frederick Francis 

WHmshurst, Thomas - 

Wilson, Richard 

Wise, James . - - 

Wood, Arthur - 

Wood, Benjamin 

Wood, Herbert Thomas 



- 236 

- 196 
. 393 

199, 220 

. 118 

. 156 

- 243 

- 242 
. 138 
. 394 

- 196 

- 208 

- 203 
. 248 
. 169 

- 376 
204, 393 

- 256 
. 208 
. 164 
. 222 

143, 253 

. 145 

. 181 

132, 385 

- 292 
. 132 
. 394 



I Wood, John, Sandwich 
Wood, John, fValmer 
Wood, William 
Woodcock, George 
Woodcock, John 
Woodcock, Thomas 
Woodlands, Jamed 
Woodruff, Thomas John 
Wooding, Mrs. Lavina - 
Woodward, George 
Woolnough, William - 
Worrels, Lewis 
Wraight, George 
Wraight, Henry 
Wraight, Osbourne James 
Wratten, James 
Wratten, John 
Wratten, Thomas Marks 
Wratten, Richard 
Wi-atten, William, 3t, fVe$t Street 
Wratten, William, 49, West Street 
Wrighton, WilUam • - 
Wybom, John 
Wyboume, Richard 6mith 
Young, George William 
Young, John - . - 

Young, Thomas Frederick 



271 
370 
295 
153 
394 
252 
149 
147 
281 
370 
285 
101 
178 



155 
256 
250 
273 
196 
221 
255 
177 
229 
211 
190 
292 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION. 



1 



'^, 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 



TAKEN BEFORB 



W. H. HOLL, Esq., Q.C., 
R E, TURNER, Esq., | and F. H. JEUNE, Esq., 

COMMISSIONERS 

APPOINTED BY HER MAJESTY TO INQUIRE INTO THE 

EXISTENCE OF CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS 
FOR A MEMBER TO SERVE IN PARLIAMENT 

FOR THE 

BOROUGH OF SANDWICH. 

ERNEST BAGGALLAY, Esq., Secretary. 



• Town Hall, Deal, Tuesday, 5tli October 1880. 
From the Shorthand Notes of Mestrs. Walsh and Sons, 17, Parliament Street^ S,W. 

FIRST DAY. 



[The Secret&i-j read the CominisBion.] 

(Mr, IIoU.) G^nUemen, my coUeagaes and myself 
bve come here, under the authority of the Commission 
timtyou have jnet heard read, for the purpose of making 
enquiiy into the maimer in which the election for the 
Bmmgh of Sandwich, which took place in May last, was 
conducted, and whether any corrupt or illegal practices 
Trere resorted to at tliat election, . It is a duty imposed 
upon the Oommiedonerfif and it is our intention, to make 
I gtridt iiivestigatioB into the circumstances and details 
of all such pmcticefi, whether in the nature of direct 
bibeiy, or of undue or excessive payments in respect of 
the engagement of committee houses, or the employment 
of pei^na not legitimately^ required for the purposes of 
the election, done with a view of inducing the persons, 
to whom such payments were made, to vote a particular 
^7, or for the purpose of inducing them to influence 
the Totea of othera. We shall endeavour in every instance 
to ascertain what was the real nature of the election, and 
tipon such investigation we invite, and sincerely trust 
ve eh&IL b^ve, the co-operation and assistance of all the 
mlmbitants ol the borongh« It is of the utmost impor- 
koce to all persons connected with the borough, whether 
TOters or non-voters, that tiiey should gjive, as soon as 
poBmble^ to the Commissioners, or to their secretary, all 
the informatioE in their power which may enable the 



Commissioners to arrive speedily at a correcl conclusion 
with regard to the matters into which they have to in- 
quire, because this inquiry, as you are probably aware, 
is held at the expense of the borough, and tlie leugth of 
time that may be occupied in prosocutiDg such inquiry 
will mainly depend upon the assist^noe and the reacUness 
with which persons may come forwartl to give us infor* 
mation, thereby enabling us to arrive at a correct con- 
clusion as soon as possible. There is a further reason 
that I ought to state to you, and that is tliat the 
Commissioners are vested with veiy wide and stringent 
powers of dealing with all persons who refuse to answer^ 
or withhold information, or do not make a full and true 
disclosure of all that is within their knowledge with 
regard to the proceedings at the election. Upon the 
other hand, with regard to all persons who do, according 
to the best of their abili^, make full and true disclosure 
of what they know the Commissionera have the power to 
grant, and will grant, certificates prc^tectijig all such 
persons from any prosecution or pemUties to which they 
might otherwise be exposed. I think I need only add 
this, that in regard to anjr persons wlio are not summoned, 
if they have any information to give, they can commmucate 
with our secretary, and he will confer with them and give 
them every assistance. Having said thus mucbj we Tvill 
now proceed to the business of the Commission. 



Thomas Ltddon Subraqb sworn and examined. 



1* (3ff, 
-Tea. 



RoU*y Ytm. are the town clerk of Sandwich ? 



2, And have been so for a great many years ? — ^Yes, 
^saoie than 40 years* 

3» I need hardly ask you whether you are very well 
fi^qoainted with the borough P— Yes, very well. 

1 I do not know whether your knowledge extends 
equally to the borough of Deal P— No, it does not, except 
Q a334- T C. 



as part of the parliamentary borough, I koow nothing 
of the municipal part. As far as the parliamentaiy 
borough is concerned, of course, I am perfectly ac- 
quainted with it. 

5. Canyon tell me the extent of tlie parliamentary 
borough ; what does it comprise P— It comprises the okl 
seaport, now the borough, of Sandwich, and tJie two 
panshes of Deal and Walmer, which were added by the 
Beform Act — that is, as the borough is now confitituted. 



5 OcL 1 8m. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION : 



hOct. l&^O. 



I 



6, Sandwicli is a borough with a mayor and corpora- 
tion ? — Ye ft. 

7, And Deal also has a mayor and corporation P — ^Yes. 

8, Ami Walmer ? — That is a mere parish ; but it has a 
local boartl. 

9, WIjo is the oflScer in that parish ?— The clerk to the 
lociil btmrd ; and Deal, tiie officer is the town clerk. 

li\ C4m you tell me what was the population of the 
parlinmentary borough in 1861 ?— In 1861, 13,733. 

11. And in 1871 ?— U,885. 

12. That is the whole parliamentary borough P— Yes ; 
but I nmy say that the next census will snow a con- 
aider able iQcrease. 

13. Bet^veen 1861 and 1871 there was an increase of 
about l,tXK)P— Yes. 

li. Do you tliink there will be as large an increase at 
the next census ?— Yes, there will be a considerable in- 
creafse. Deal and Walmer are growing year by year. 

15, Oan you tell me the number of the constituency 
upon the present register p— 2,115 ; and the lists for the 
new register, recently revised, will show nearly 100 in 
eiceSB ; next time it will be about 2,200. 

16, Thafc, I presume, includes some persons who are 
entered tieice P — Yes, undoubtedly. 

17, Can you give any idea of the numbers who would 
be entered twice P — No, not to be of any use. I can give 
you the niunber presently that actually polled at the last 
election. At a guess I should say that you might take 
off ft hundred for duplicate entries. 

18, Tliere will be some persons who are dead, or who 
have removed P — ^Yes, of course. 

19, Do you think that 2,000 would be a fair estimate 
of the actual constituency P — ^Yes, something over 2,000. 

20, (Ui\ Turner.) At tiie present moment P — Yes, and 
that will be added to in a few months. 

21, {Mi\ I Loll,) Can jou tell me what numbers of the 
constituency are apphcable to Sandwich, Deal, and 
Walmer, as distinguished from each other p — The Sand- 
wich electors, 571 ; Deal, 1,233 ; Walmer, 311, making 
flltogother 2,115. 

22, How are the voters divided — some freemen, some 
occupiers? — Some freemen, some occupiers, and some 
loilgen?, X 

28, I do not know whether you can tell us what pro- 
XK*rtion are rated as occupiers, what proportion as free- 
men, and what proportion as lodgers p — The total 
freemen are 143, Sandwich householders 442, and one 
Ifxlger ; Deal, 1,217 occupiers with three lodgers ; and 
Walmer, ;i09 occupiers. If you wish it I could show 
yoii the mmibers in by-gone'years, and show the decrease 
of the freemen and increase of the householders. 

24, Can you tell me th^ numbers who polled in the 
election fcfr 1868 P — I have got the total upon the register 
for 1868. 

25, What was the constituency in 1868 P— 1,906. 

26, Wliat was the number for the Liberals P — In 1868, 
Hugeseen 933, Brassey 923. 

27, And for the Conservatives P — 710. In that year the 
oonstitiieiicy rose very largely, in consequence of the 
household sufifrage. 

28, I do not think we need trouble you with that ; it 
altered, of course, the constituency very considerably p — 
Ye-B, ver^^ considerably ; we began under the Beform 
Act in Wahnerwith only 69, and Qiereare now 309 ; and, 
with regard to Deal, we began with 357 and they have 
now risen to 1,217, so that the progress has been very 
great. Sandwich has remained just where it was, and 
Deul and Walmer have been progressing of late years very 
rapidly, 

29, Cau you tell me whether this is correct ; popula- 
tion in 1B;31 12,183, and in 1832 electors 916?— 1,008 
I make it in 1331-2. 

oO, In 1861, what was the population?— 13,733. 
:il. In 1868, what was the constituency P— 1,906. 

32, In 1871, what was the population ?— 14,885. 

33, Ami in 1874, what was the constituency at the 
time of the election ?— 2,046. 

34, ITie number of electors in 1880 was 2,115 ?— Yes, 
jnst 80, 

35 p Toll me if this is a correct statement of the polling 
at the difi'erent elections from 1857 downwards — 1857, 
Hngeeaeu, Liberal, 547 ; Lord Clfurence Paget, Liberal, 
T>(\?y ; J, ^McGregor, Conservative, 322, and J. Lang, 24 ? 
— Yes, 

D<i. In 1859, Hugessen, Liberal, 497 ; Lord Clarence 
Paget, Liberal, 458 ; Sir J. Ferguson, Conservative, 
404, and W. D. Lewis, Conservative, 328 ?— Yes. 



37. In 1859 there was a bye-election ?— Yes. 

38. And at that election Mr. Hugessen, Liberal 463 
and Mr. Ferguson, Conservative, 283 ?— No, 180 it 
appears from my papers. This was a bye-election upon 
Mr. Hugessen coming down for re-election after titog 
office, and probably many who voted for Sir J. Ferguson 
before thought it unfair to oppose Mr. Hugessen nnder 
such circumstances ; this, Itlunk, would account for the 
small number of votes recorded to Mr. Ferguson com- 
pared with the recent poll. 

39. In 1865, Hugessen, Liberal, 494 ; Lord Clarence 
Paget, Liberal, 477, and Mr. Capper, Conservative, 413? 
— — X es, 

40. In 1866 there was a bye-election, at which 
Mr. Capper, Conservative, polled 466, and Mr. Thomas 
Brassey 458?— Yes. 

41. In 1868, Hugessen, Liberal, 933 ; Henry Brassey, 
Liberal, 923, and Baron de Worms, Conservative, 710 ?— 
Yes. 

42. In 1874, Henry Brassey, Liberal, 1,035 ; Hugessen, 
Liberal, 1,006 ; H. Hallett, Conservative, 7€S, and 
H. S. Baillie, Conservative, 611 ?— Yes. 

43. In 1880, April, Mr. Henry Brassey, Liberal, and 
Mr. Hugessen, Liberal, were unopposed P— Yes. 

44. Then the election in May last, Mr. Crompton 
Roberts polled 1,145, and Sir Julian Goldsmid 705?— 
Yes. 

45. Can you give me the returns of expenses for the 
election of 1868 ?— No, I have not got them ; they were 
not returned, I beHeve. It was suggested to me yester- 
day that the law, perhaps, did not compel them to be 
returned at that time. I do not know how that is, but I 
have no returns for 1868. 

46. Can you give me the returns for the expenses of 
the election for 1874 P— I have them at my oflSce. I did 
not know that they would be wanted to-day. I bronght 
the expenses of the general election and tiie election of 
May, but I can send the others to you, if necessary. 

47. Be so good as to make a note to let us have the 
returned expenses for the election of 1874. What were 
the returned expenses at the unopposed election in 1880? 
— There are two returns, one for Deal and Walmer, and 
one for Sandwich. The Deal and Walmer summary is 
199L 17*. 2d. 

48. Can you give us the items of that P— The abstract 
will be sufficient, I suppose. Printing and posting, 
28?. 10«. 8^. ; hotel fujcounts (personal), 27L 10«. ; car- 
riage hire, 9Z. 14«. ; preparing canvass books, circulars, 
addresses, advertisements, and delivering and poetagee, 
Ml, 2«. 6cZ. ; agency, lOOZ. ; making a total of 199?. 17*. M.; 
that is for Deal and Walmer. The vouchers are here also. 
Then the Sandwich abstract gives a totaJ of 364/, 28. U.^ 
and the items are Griffin and Shaw and Sons, printing, 
117. 3«. M, ; Railway news, publishing addresses, 2/. 24. ; 
Woodruff, canvass books and services. Sandwich, 91. 5«. ; 
Ewell, polling streets, <fec., 3?. 3^. ; Rose, canvass books 
and services, Walmer, IIZ. Os, M, ; Woodcock, polling 
streets, &c., 9?. 9». ; Nazer, bill posting, 2Z. ; Hunter 
and Pearson, committee rooms, 6Z. 15*. bd, ; Woodruff 
clerks, messengers, &c., 13Z. hs, ; Fihner, ** Bell " hotel, 
34?. Vis. Id, ; winter and Daniels, carriage hire, 4?. 16<f. U.) 
Baker, stamps and petty disbursements, 6?. lis. 2J.; 
returning officer's expenses, 49?. 198. ; agency, Messrs. 
Emmerson and Co., Hugessen, 100?. ; the like, Brassey, 
100?. ; making altogether, 364?. 3^. M. 

49. What are the principal trades or industries of 
Sandwich ?— Of course the usual retail trade of a country 
town with a large market. Besides that, tiiere is a large 
timber yard, a tannery, a large com stores, and two 
breweries. The principal and substantial trade is upon 
the river ; there are considerable imports of timber, 
coals, and com in the course of a year. It snpphes a 
large part of the district with coal. 

50. Have those imports been upon the increase or 
decrease of late years ? — I think they have been pretty 
stationary for some time. Sometimes a little more ana 
sometimes a little less. 

51. Have you the vouchers for the expenditure ?— Yes 
Qicmding a bundle of papers) ; they were all sent in to 
the returning officer. 

52. Are there any manufactories at Sandwich ?— No, 
nothing that you can call a manufactory ; there is an 
ironfoundry and things of that kind upon a moderate 
scale. 

53. Is there a manufactory in the sense I mean ? — No, 
perhaps it could hardly be called that ; it makes things 
for the neighbourhood. 

54. Can you tell me what are the principal industries 
of Deal ?— No, I know nothing about tliat ; with regard 



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to that I would prefer referring yon to the town clerk 
of DeaL I know nothing about it, except as a casual 
observer. Of course we all know that D^ is connected 
with the shipping in the Downs from all nations. 

55. You know nothing in detail at all ? — No. I know 
it is increasing from what one sees going on in buildings. 

56. Are there many manufactories in Deal ? — I really 
do not know. 

57. And I suppose you would give the same answer 
in regard to Wedmer ? — ^Yes, all I know is that I have 
seen Walmer growing from a seaside village to a rapidly 
inoreasing watering place, and at the present moment it 
is likely to increase very much. 

58. What are the principal classes of voters at Sand- 
wich ? — There are the old freemen, who have dwindled 
down very much to a low figure. 

59. I believe you say there are now 143 P — ^Yes. In 
1832 there were 1,000. The Reform Act knocked off so 
many, and put on so many householders in Deal and 
Walmer. 

60. How many of the freemen reside in Sandwich P — 
All withm seven miles ; there are a few at Bamsgate, a 
few at Walmer, and 13 at DeaL 

61. Do the majority reside at Sandwich P— Yes, the 
large majority. Many of them are very respectable 
hoc^^olders, but there is a residuum of course of poor 
men. 

62. What proportion would you term respectable 
booseholders, and what proportion poor men P — Really 
I am afraid 'to give an estimate. 

63. Can you give any idea at all ? — No ; no one knows 
less a}K>ut it than myself perhaps. 

61. How many freemen are householders P — I could 
not say without going through the list. 

65. Should you say more than 15 or 20?--Yes, I 
should think the large majority are householders. 

66. There are not, I believe, upon the list as house- 
holders more than 15 or 20 P — ^Yes, I should think so. 
You may take it generally ; I think that the larger part 
of tiie freemen are housdiolders, but I am not prepared 
to give the exact figures without going through the list, 
n yon consider it of importance I could do it after- 
wards. 

67. All those that are householders would appear upon 
the list as occupiers P — ^Yes. 

68. So that we could ascertain it by examining the 
UstP—Yee, just so ; though a person who does not know 
the names might be pu^ed, because there are many 
families of the same name. 

69. To what trade or occupation do the voters as a 
class principally belong; are they tradesmen and 
publicans P — Of course there are a great many tradesmen 
and publicans, some independent gentlemen, and a great 
many of the working classes. 

70. Would the larger portion be amongst the trades- 
men of the place P— I should think the tradesmen, and 
the upper class of artizans and working men. With 
regard to the publicans you will have a return of them 
by-and-bye I suppose. 

71. With regard to the freemen how are they admitted, 
by payment is it P — The fee is nominal, I believe about 
6i for birth. The Mayor holds a court every year to 
admit those who claim, if they prove their claim they 
are admitted, but there are only two or three a year. 

72. Are the freedoms taken up politically at allp — 
No, not at all ; they were in former vears. Looking 
back to the report I observe that before the Beform 
Act some 40 or 50 were admitted after the issue of the 
writ, and before the day of the election three or four 
snocessive courts were neld, day after day, to admit 
freemen, but that is all gone by, the Beform Act having 
stopped it alL I could give you, if you wish it, the last 
poU, before the Eeform Act, of freemen alone. 

73. I do not think that is very important. How many 
peeling districts are there in Sandwich p — ^Two. 

74. In Deal three P — ^Yes ; and Walmer one. 

75. Can you give the area, in acreage, of the borough 
of Sandwich P — No, I have not the area here, but I can 
give it to the secretary if you desire it. 

76. And can you give Deal and Walmer respectively 
«8 well ?— I daresay I could obtain it in some way. 

77. Be so good as to send to the secretary the area for 
^ch. What is the distance from Sandwich to Deal P— 
About six miles ; seven miles we call it. 

78. And from Deal to Walmer ? — About two miles ; 
wit of course it depends upon the part of the parish you 
go to, because some part of the parish of Walmer 



adjoins Deal. Walmer is within seven miles of the 
borough of Sandwich, or else the freemen could not 
vote. 

79. How is the municipality of Simdwich constituted p 
—A mayor, aldermen, and burgesses. 

80. How many aldermen P— Four. 

81. And how many town councillors P — Twelve. 

82. Are the municipal elections political p — No, not 
at all. 

83. Do you know how they are now divided at Sand- 
wich P— Do you mean the coimcil as regards politics ? 

84. Yes P— I do not know at all ; but I may say this, 
we know nothing of politics in the council. You may 
take as an off-hand statement that the majority is Liberal 
at this moment. 

85. You say that the contests for the municipal offices 
are not in any way political P— No, they are not. 

86. Do you know, with regard to Deal, how that is ?— 
No, I know nothing about it. We have had no municipal 
contests in Sandwich since 1875. 

87. (Mr Turner.) They have been re-elected without 
contests p— Yes. 

88. {Mr. Boll) With regard to Deal, of what does the 
Corporation consist P— The town clerk will give you all 
that information. 

89. Can you tell me what the number of public- 
houses is in Sandwich, licensed and unlicensed P — 
Mr. Emmerson, the clerk, is here and will give you the 
exact particulars. 

90. Can you toll me who are the active leading Con- 
servatives in Sandwich ; first of aU, is there a (S^nser- 
vative Association P — I really do not know, I believe 
there is something in a very small way, but I do not 
have anything to do with politics myself, and any opinion 
that I gave you would be merely that of an outsider 
altogether. 

91. Do you know whether there is a Conservative 
Association p— No, but I know there is some kind of 
oonunittee where a few gentlemen meet together. 

92. No place of meeting P — I am not aware of it ; they 
do meet sometimes and talk over their affiEdrs, but what 
they call themselves I do not know at all. 

93. Can you say who are the leading active Conser- 
vatives ; who do you look upon as the leading Conser- 
vative in the place P— I should be rather puzzled to say 
just now, because some of the old gentlemen have gone, 
and who their successors are I do not know, I think I 
might give one as Mr. Frank Baker, he is a compara- 
tively young man and has recently come into the Con- 
servative ranks. 

94. Of whom else can you think P— I happened to see 
the other day about the election, Mr. W. J. Hughes, 
a grocer in Sandwich. 

95. Can you tell me any other who by repute you 
know as an active man among the Conservatives P — No, 
it does not occur to me at this moment ; in fact I have 
been obliged to f eteh this up. At this moment no other 
name occurs to me. 

96. Who would you look upon as the leading Liberals ; 
first of all, is there a Liberal Association P — No, I think 
not in Sandwich, they meet in the same way as the 
others do, but there is not an association, it is a sort of 
committee I thinlr, 

97. Who are the leading Liberals P— I do not know 
that there is anv man who takes any particularly strong 
part in it ; I think I might name a Mr. Harnson for 
one. 

98. What Harrison is that, what is his Christian 
name P— Mr. Bobert Harrison. 

99. Do you know what he isP — He is in the com 
trade. 

100. 
one. 



T. X. Surroffe^ 
5 Oct. 1880, 



Does he live in Delph Street P— Yes, that is the 



101. Who else can you mention P — I fhink a nephew 
of his has come forward lately, Mr. Eichard CoUard, but 
I really keep myself so entirely aloof from these parties 
that I know nothing about it. 

102. You do not mil yourself up with them, but I 
thought it probable that you might know the leadiog 
men by repute P— If I thought it over I might know 
more about it. 

103. Does anybody else occur to you at this moment P 
— ^No, not at this moment. 

104. Do you know anything about the political 
organization at all, do you know whether there are ward 
committees P— There are no ward committees, because 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



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T^L,Surra^c thete are no wardtiw I think yoa mny take it that there 

is & Bort of opea cjommittee on each side, 

5 Oct, 1 880. 105^ Had they thstrict committcee at the last election ? 

* - — No, I think not^ it is ao email a place that I Bhould 

think not 

106. Have yon heard of any illegd or cormpt practices 
occarrmg in the Borough of Sandwich in this loat elec- 
tion ?-^None whatever to my knowledge* Of course I 
have heard gossip in the streeta. 

107. Had joa heard anything of the kind ispoken of 
before the election petition was tried P— No, nothing at 
all substantially, 

108. Too hatl beanl some nunonre ?— I heard gossip 
in the streets oceaeionallyj and I heard some Tronderful 
stories occasionally^ quite incredible on the face of it, I 
heard nothing in any tangible ehape or form at alh 

109. What was it you did hear, anythiag abont exces- 
flive payments to persons P— All sorta of things^ I really 
do not know ttnything about it 

110. I nuderstand you to say you know notliing at all 
about it, but what were the rumours or goasip that you 
heard ? — There was a rumour that there was a grent deal 
of money spent ^itl I believe that was true, an<i tliat is 
all I know, in faot it was evident to the eye in the shape 
of flags^ public-houses, and so ou^ and people running 
about the streets, who were ail paid more or lees. 

111. Was the excitement as regards flags, pnblio- 
honses, carried to a greater extent than at previous 
elections ?— Xes, I think it was. 

112. In what other way was it patent to the eye that 
a good deal of money was being spent ?— There were a 
good number of fla^s Hying especially over here, very 
handsome flags indeed, which must have cost a good 
deal of money, in point of fact people came over to see 
litem. There were a great many fij^ng in our place. 

113. Were there more at Deal ?— Yes, more at Deal 
and Wolmer, tlierc was quite a show of Hags over here, 
and very Itandsome ones, 

114. I understand you to say that was done to a con- 
siderably greater extent than you had eveT kngwn it 
before in your kuowletlge p— If I went back a good many 
years I would not soy so, because we used to have won- 
derful shows years ago, before tlie Act putting down 
flogs and banners came into operation ; before thiki time 
we had most wonderful shows, worth seeing, flags, 
banners, and rosettes, to an enormous extent. 

115. I understand you to say that you have seen 
nothing like this since the Act passed P — No, nothing 
like it J but before that the show was worth coming 
to see, 

116. Was there any other respect in which yon noticed 
a good deal of money being spent ? Did you notice any- 
thing in regard to the nmnber of persons employed m 
eanvaseii^g ?— Xo, I know notldng about that. I saw a 
good many people niuniug about the streets in Peal one 
day, but I loiow nothing about those that were employed. 
I should not think, as far as I know about it, that mere 
was any excessive employment iu Haudwicb, I did not 
see the streets crowded ■with those people more than 
usual ; they always have a lot of hangers-on in the shape 
of agents^ touten^, canvassers, and so on. 

117. Were there any great number of boys with 
boards? — I hapiiened to be in Deal one day and saw a 
ppoce^ion of boys witli boards ; they attracted my uotice 
on account of the curiosity of the thing. 

118. Was there much of that kind of thing in Sand- 
wich P— No, I did not see any. 

119. Do you know whether a large number of con- 
vey ancea were employed at the time of the election P — 
I should think not at Sandwich, because there are not 
many conveyances tliere, I think all were employed 
that could be obtained, but I should tliink there would 
be many more at Deal and Wahner, 

120. It is not a very long distance to walk from one 
end of Sandwich to the other, is it P How long wotdd it 
take you ? — Perhaps seven or eight minutes ; you may 
say 1 minutes. 

121. And across it ? — About the same I should say. 

122. I tliink you say it has not been, in your know- 
ledge, nsvml at previous elections for the last 15 or 
^0 years to have so many flags or public ^houses ?— I do 
not know much about the public -houses, but I may say 
that I have not seen so many flags for a number of years. 
The practice has been growmg up the last two or three 
elections, and when once anything of that kind grows it 
grows fast. For some time after tlie passing of tbe Act 
we saw nothing of colours except a few put up at 

^^ people's private expense. 



123. I>o yon think the constituency look for a tJiim? 
like a large number of public-houses bemg engngcdmid 
a large number of flags p— I do not think that tlie eon- 
stituencY care much about the public-houses, though ai 
doubt the publicans do; but I do think tlint a con- 
stituency of this kind is very much pleased with a lot of 
flags flymg ; at all events, the agents think bo, becauaa 
they go into that line pretty strongly. WLen it ia done 
upon one side they must do it upon the other or tliey 
do not stand a fair chance, 

124 Had Mr. C. Boberts many ?— Yes, of com^. 

125. And you think that the constituency like to bave 
that kind of employment given to them ?— Que class do. 

126. What class would that be ■'—I think widi regflrd 
to all these questions yon would obtain mnch eafet 
answers from those who are concerned in working the 
elections, because I know nothing but what I see in 
going along the street Undoubtedly a large number of 
people do look for employment at the time of tke 
election. 

127. The flags are not carried about the etreets I 
think, but are erected upon poles? — Yea, Uiey are 
erected upon poles principally, I do not think any were 
carried about the streets in SandT^^ich, though there nuij 
have been some over here, 

128. Do you think there is a certain class of the oon- 
stituency who look to be employed and who look to 
having poles and flags, and so on, with a view to getting 
employment upon that kind of work ? — Yes, there ia a 
great many people hanging about, and they look for 
employment of any kind ; that is the case anywhen?, I 
believe, so that I can make the observation generally. 

129. There were in Deal, were there not, a very large 
number of flags and poles ? — Yes, I may say so at oa(^, 
because I happened to see them. I heard of it and came 
over to see the sight one morning. I came over to make 
arrangements for the polling and I was surimfied and to 
some extent pleased by seeing such a display of flogs 
and banners of an ornamental nature, because it mi& 
rather amusing to go along the street and count them. 
All along the beach at the end towards Deal andWalaier 
there was a vast amount of bimting put up and some oi 
it at very considerable expense. 

130. Had you known Mr. Boberts in Sandwich the 
year before the election ?— No. 

131. I may take it that he was a stranger to the place? 
— ^Yes; when he called upon me and left his card I 
happened to be engaged and gave him an nnceremonionfl 
answer, and afterwards I asoeirtained it "was the csn- 
didate. 

132. When did he call upon you ?— I forget the date 
now, but it was the first day be appeared in Sand^wich. 

133. Can you give me about the date ?— No, not at 
this moment. I see that the writ was issued upon thu 
11th of May, and he was down a week or t-en days before 
that — a week perhaps. 

134. He would probably call upon you as far as you 
can judge about a week before that F^ Yes, abont a 
week before that. I do not know how long he had l>een 
at Deal, but I do not think it could have been above {i 
day or two. . 

135. I do not know whether you have the means of 
ascertaining exactly the day he called upon yonP— I 
think I can by referring, not to my diary, but to things 
that occurred at the time. I have no distinct memoiy 
of the date, but other things may bring it to my recol- 
lection. 

136. If you can kindly send the expenses retain for 
1874 P— I will look at all the papers. 

137. And when you send us the return for 1874, can you 
send us the vouchers as well, sealed upp — I will send 
you anything I have. I believe I have the vouchers. 
I know I have the returns for I have looked at them. 
I will send everything of that kind I can find. 

138. If you have the vouchers for 1874, perhaps yoa 
will let us have them sealed up P — Yes, I will, if I have 
them. 

139. Were there a large number of rosettes displayed ; 
were people wearing colours to any great extent?— I 
did not see any great number of rosettes myself. 

140. Neither at Sandwich, nor Deal and WaJmer P— 
No. There were some about, I know, but not to any 
great extent; not any great number. It was said 
before, in former years, t£at every one wore a rosette, 
men, women, and children. 

141. We see that in the 1874 election there was a 
considerable majority for the Liberal can^date, above 
300 ; can you account at all for tiie very considerable 



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majority that Mr. Boberts had over the Liberal candi- 
date ? — No, I cannot. 

142. It was a majority of 440 ?— Yes. I was mnch 
surprised myself with the result I would not beUeve 
the figores when they come oat. 

143. And you are tmable to account for it? — Yes. 
On that very morning my idea, as an outsider, was that it 
was a very close run, and thought it my duty to advise 
the returning officer that in the case of a tie he had got 
a casting vote, and he had better think about what he 
would do. It turned out to be a majoriir of 400 odd, 
BO that I was quite out of the running. I knew nothing 
at fdl about it. 

144. You cannot give us any reason to account for it, 
or in any way account for it yourself P — I should say, 
simply, as a man of the world, that the fact that 
Mr. CtompUm Boberts was here for a full week before 
anybody else appeared had something to do with it. 
The people on tne other side failed to find a candidate, 
nobody appeared, and common sense tells one that had 
a great deed to do with it. 

145. Did that to some extent influence it?— Un. 
doubtedly. I should say so as a man of the world. 

146. Do yon think that alone would account for 700 
difference between the last election and the election of 
of 1874 ? — It would not be so much as that. 

147. There was in 1874 a majority of 300 for tlie Liberal 
candidate, and of 400 for the Conservative candidate 
m 1880, a difference of 700?— Half that number of 
voters going from one side to the other would do it. 

148. You think that had a good deal to do with it, do 
yon ? — ^There was some little diange in political feeling, 
I believe. Some people on the Liberal side said ^ere 
waa a decided change. I should doubt that as far as 
regards a decided change, but I should think there was 
some change of political opinion, but not to the extent 
of 700. I know Mr. Crompton Roberts' people said 
there was a large change. Any man in the field for a 
week, with an active set of agents about, and spending 
money, of course advances his position. 

149. When were the expenses for the unopposed 
election returned ? — Recently, perhaps a fortnight ago ; 
the 23rd of September, I think. 

150. Do you know at all how it happened they were 
not returned before ? — No, I do not. I apprehend they 
were not made out. 

151. When was the return made of the May election 
an behalf of the Conservative candidate. First of all, 
do you produce the return of the expenses of Mr. Cromp- 
ton Roberts ?— Yes, Do you want the vouchers 
handed in? 

152. Yes, the vouchers and the returns ? — Very well. 
l^he same were 'produced and handed to the secretary,'] 
The secretary has been all through those and they are 
now just as he arranged them. I see the return was 
received on the 2nd of August, the vouchers came a day 
or two after that. 

153. I think that was the last day, was it not ? — No, 
it was far out of date, tt is dated somewhere in the 
middle of July, but received on the 2nd of August. 

154. There is a memorandum, " Received on 2nd of 
" August. Bills and vouchers received on 4th of Au- 
" gnst" ? — That is correct. The return is dated some 
fartnight before. That might have been in time, but I 
do not know exactly. 

155. This is the return "Borough of Sandwich, Deal, 
" and Walmer. Election 1880. Expenses paid on 
*' behalf of Mr. Crompton Roberts. Agents fee, 210Z. 
" Sub-agents, 92Z. 10«. Cabs, railway fares, telegrams, 
" Ac, 224Z. 5ff. id. Committee houses, 527Z. Is, M, 
** Clerks personation agents at central offices, 
" 125L lis. i\d. Ditto per Mr. Usher, 3702. Postages, 
•* 22L \%s. bd. Public meetings, 29Z. lis. Canvassers 
** and messengers at Deal, 468Z. is. Ditto at Sandwich, 
•* 831. 16*. Ditto at Walmer, 60/. 14». M. Bill posting, 
" 35L 6«. M, Boards and boardmen, 139Z. 19^. 2d. 
'* Posting stations, poles, cordage, &c., 279Z. 19*. ^\d. 
" Printing and stationery, 221Z. lis, \d. Personal 
" expenses, 106L 13*. 2d. Returning officer, 70Z. 8s. M. 
" Snndries, 84Z. 3«. M. Total, 3,153Z. bs, 3cZ." That 
was received by the returning officer on the 2nd of 
Augnst, and the bills and vouchers for these disburse- 
ments were received by you on the 4th of August you 
Bay ?— Yes, in a separate parcel. 

156. When did you first receive any return on behalf 
of the Liberal candidate. Sir Julian Goldsmid ?— On the 
2C)th of September. I should state that Her Majesty's 
judges callei upon the agents for their accounts just as 
fiiey stood. They sent for them, and they were then 



impounded by the judges ami handed by them into my T, i. Surratfe, 
custody, I suppose I am quite right in handing them 



5 Oct. iseo. 



157. These were the vouchers limadetl in by tlie 
Liberal agent to the judges at the trial of the election 
petition ? — They were. 

158. And then impounded and handed t-o you ?— They 
were called for, the a^ent wjis sent back to get them, 
and they were handed m to the judges, and impounded 
by the judges, and given to mo to keep. 

159. And these are them P--Yes. 

160. And the return, as thejwere delivered to you 
upon the election petition ?— Yos^ I hatl tliem from ths 
judges themselves. I have since got their own returns 
from the parties, but these ware papera taken out of 
their hands by the judges, 

161. These were the papei-s handed in by the Liberal 
agent at the trial of flie election petition ?— Yes, Uie 
judges called for them and impoimded them. 

162. And since then, on tlie 20th of September, you 
have got the return of the expanses from the Liberal 
agent P— Yes, the regular return, 

163. Did you receive any further vonchora with that 
return P — They are all here. 

164. And they came, when P— Deal and Walmer return 
came on the 20th of September ; Sandwich on the 2;}rd, 
and they contain all the vouchers. 

165. And these are the Touchersi that acoompanieJ 
that return ? — Yes, all the vouchers that accompaniei 
that return. 

166. There was a separate Biimnmry for Sandwich and 
for Deal and Walmer ?— Yes, This Is the abstract for 
Deal and Walmer, ''Borough of Sandtricb, Deal, and 
" Walmer, Parliamentary election. May 18S0. Sir Julian 

Goldsmid, Baronet Expenses paid on behalf of the 
above candidate. For committee rooms^ Deal hil,^ 
Wahner 12Z. Printer^s bill, Hayward, 52?. 1%, id 
Carriages, Hancock, W. Hesseu^erSj perftouatiug 
agents, committee rooms' elerks and assistants, Deal, 
220Z. is. 6d Ditto, Walmer, mj, 18^. 10(?. Postage 
stamps, &c., 6Z. bs. 6t?. Total, UU, Is. 2,1/' That 
signed by the election eip€ue*js afrent. Theji this is 

the abstract of expenses for Sandwich, "Sandwich. 
Comnnttee rooms **Bell'' hotel, 17/. Ditto per 
Mr. Coleman, as per list, 28/. Ditto per Mr. Himter, 
101. Conveyances and cai-ria^ hire, 10^, ISs. 
B. Grey, bill posting, 4i. Dennis, ditto, '2L Out- 
voters railway fares, 8/. Colemaji, for watchers, WL 
Printing and registers of electors, 20^. lOf. lid. 
Committee and assistant committee clerks, IBL 
W. W. Woodruflf for messengers, polling and per- 
sonating clerks, 35Z. 6^. C<deman, for eanvfiaseis, 
disbursements, and petty expenses, iOL Personal 
expenses **Bell" hotel, 48?. 17b. 3d. Special train to 
Deal, postages, telegrams, Ac,, 17/. 11^. Returning 
officer's expenses, 70?. Ss. M. Agent's fee, 100?. 
Total, 443^ 6s. lid." That is signed by the agent, 

Edmund Brown. 

167. Perhaps to-morrow you will, be able to let na 
have the returns of the eipeni?ea in 1874 ?— -Certainly. I 
will send them to the secretary in the course of to- 
morrow. 

168. (Mr. Jeune.) As far as you could see was there 
any treating at Saiidwicli at the lost election?— I do 
not know at all, but I should siiy not. I never Leiurd 
of any, 

169. Were any of the public-houses open ? — Not what 
we used to call being opeu in the old fai^Moned way. I 
saw very little going on in the public-houses except bills 
being kept in the window, 

170. Were there crowds round any of the pubho- 
houses during the election ? — I saw none at Sandwich, 

171. You live at Deal, do you ?— I live a 6 Sandwich, 
I was only at Deal occasionally. 

172. Were you at Deal on the day of the election ? — 
I came to the polling booth to see all was going on 
right. 

173. Was there any drunkenness that yon saw at 
Sandwidi or Deal? — I saw no tippling at all. It 
seemed a very quiet election as for as regards noi&e and 
drink, 

174. You thought as regards noise and crowds and bo 
on it was a quiet election rather than otherwise ? — 
Decidedly so. Much quiet'or than the elections 6ome 
years ago, which were wonderfully noisy, 

175. As regards the flags, before the Act there always 
nsed to be, both at Sandwich and Deal, a gre^it di^la; 

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of that kiBd of thing?— A grent display, espedalljr 
ro^ttes ; everyoiae lifwl a colourcil rosette or cockikle* 

17fi. The Act was in 1854, wae it not ?— Bcmiewlierc 
abont that, I ihhik, 

177. TUe effect of timt Act waa to put down that kind 
of thing for a time, was it P— I think so. 

178. Of bte yeare yon think it has been rather growing 
up again P— Well, canthtlatoa^ere rather glad to save the 
expenee, and I presume made that an excuse for not 
doing BO ; but at last one was given, ami another, and eo 
the fiiiig has grown up, 

179. And of liite yeara you think it hm bt^en groining 
again i'— Very alightly tiB*the last election. There were 
always flags more or lesa. Private individuiUs always 
Bupplieil ilagfl of their own, There were always some 
flags, bnt not in the large lavish way you are iiow 
speaking of. 

ISO, I think yoE told ns that the municipal contests 
in Sandwich are not political ?— Certainly not 

181, Ind^dj yon Imvo had no municipal contest there 
since 1875 at all?— No; for ftve yeere we have had 
none. 

182, Was there a contest in 1875 ?— Yes, there was one 
in November 1675, 

183, Was that a single contest, one against one, do jan 
happen to remember p — ^No ; it was th© anniml election, 
Tliei-e were four vacandes, and there were eight camli- 
ilates, and it is Tery ainguJai-, bnt I see tlie four suocese- 
fnl candidates were two Liberal and two Conservatives ; 
that is, taking them by repute, of course. 

184, And last November there waa no contest at all P 
— No contest at all. 

185, Someone else wiU tell us abont Beal. You do 
not know P — No, 

18G. You were going to give us the voting areas of 
Sandwich, Deal, wid Wabner P — I will gjve you Sand- 



wich, and try and get the others. No doubt Mr, Mercer 
tlie to^ii clerk, will Ije able to give you that at once. 

187. As far as regards Sandwich, there was no neces- 
sity to employ conveyances for voters at all I wuppose ? 
— Anybody not very infirm could get there. The 
polbng booth was about the centre of the town. There 
were a few inflrniities, 

188. Bnt all the oonveyauces that could be got were 
taken P^I really do not know ; but I believe tbat wah 
the fiust. The Liberal eonunittee room was opposite the 
polhiig booth, and I saw two cabs standing there a 
good part of the day, doiug nothing apparently^ 

180, At the election l>ofore, were the conveyances em- 
ployed more than tliey wore at this election P I mean 
tbe contested election in 1868. Were there more con- 
veyances for voters then than this election ? — I think 
not 

190, Alwjut tlie same P— I tlid not see very much con- 
veyance of voters at Sandwich. Some people are alwajB 
glad to ride at election timefl^, I saw them about tiic 
streets, but nothing to obseiTe upon in tjmt way. In 
these towns they have not many conversances, and Wess 
tliey go outside and hire them, they cannot get a gr^t 
number, 

191, iMi\ EoU>) You say that after the Act paeeed, 
canthdates were glad to get lid of the expense of flags 
and coloni-s p— I only suppose so. They are very happy 
to make an 'excuse of that kiml when oftfeeJ lot 
thej^e things, and I can easily imagine they made that 
excuse, 

192, How do yon aceoont for its grewing up again ?— 
Til ere are always some people— zealous people~-who will 
luive their own rosettes, cockwlea, and so, and one little 
thing leads to another ; but whether of late years, before 
tbe last election, any were jsrovided by the candidates, I 
really do not know. There was nothing to notice imtU 
this election with reganl to colours. There were flags 
flyiDg. People put np their own flags. 



S, Spqffhrth^ 



Samuel Spoffoeth sworn and examined. 



193. (Mr. Jetme.) Ton are, I believe lUr. Crompton 
Roberta' private solicitor P— -I am, 

194. And I think you have been so for a good number 
of years Y--20 years, 

105. Of course Mx* Crompton Boberts, as we know, is 
a man of very large fortune P — Of oonfiiderablo fortune. 

19G. I think Mr. Roberta consulted you before he saw 
Mr. Hughes P— He did, 

197, Did yon introduce Mr, Hughee to Imn P— He wiis 
mentioned to me by persons who recommended hitn as a 
good election agent, 

198, And then you put Mr, Hughes and Mr. Crompton 
Roberts into commimjciition ?— Quite so, 

199, And except that had you anything to do with tlie 
conduct of the electiom I do not moan with the election 
petition but the election itself P— Nothing whatever. 

200, You had nothing wliatever to do with the money 
which Mr, Crompton liobert» found and Mr, Hughes 
spent, or anything of that sort ? — Nothing wlmtever* ' 

201, Had you anytlung at all to do with the election 
imtil the election petition was presented P — Nothing save 
introducing my client to Mr. Hughes or Mr, Hughes to 
my client, which I have already stated, 

202* When the election petition ivas presented, then 
TVlr. Ci"ompt{:>n Rt:kberts came to yon again i\B liia soHeitor 
to act for hioi p — Certainly. 

203, When was the election petition presented — the 
election was on the IHth May ?— Yes. 

2(^4. And the election petttioo waa presented when ?^ 
I CJuiDot icU yon tiie date of the petition at this moment, 

20r>, At any rate that was tlie time tJiat Mr. Crompton 
EolH?rts came back to you, and you began of course then 
to iuvesti^te the q^uestion P^Tes, I have the petition 
laere, but it does not seem to be dated, I cannot ei^actly 
say at what date it waa served, 

20G. At any rate Umt was the time when Mr. Oi^ompton 
Roberta came back to yon, and after that no doubt you 
got a copy of the j>etition and a copy of the particnburs ? 
— Yes. 

207, And I suppose yon went down to Sandwich, either 
before or after the particnlare were dehvered, and you 
went into the matter ? — To Deal more especiidly, 1 waa 
down some three or four times — three time« certainly 
after the lihng of the petition and before the heaiing. 



208, First of all, as regards tlieca^e against Mr. Cromp- 
ton Boberts, of course you looked into the chaises that 
were made, founded niK*n the particulars P^I did. 

209, And you prepared your brief I suppose ?— Ye». 

210, And yon have the brief here ? — Yes. 

211,1 tliink we should like to have it P—I know very 
well what the decisions of the Coinmiasioners have Ijeen 
in other Commi^ious, nnd I think it is no use my wasting 
the time of your Honours by objecting, but in juBtioe to 
my clientj and also in justice to mysehf as a profeissdonal 
mau, and personally I do not wish it to be said that I 
have been guilty of auy breiicJa of confidence to a thUd 
party, or tlmt I have at all disclosed anjlhing to thini 
parties in this investigation, therefore, if' I do hand over 
thebe papers, I must do it on your Honours* order, so 
that my client^s pri\ileg6 n^d my own, if I may he 
allowed to ask it, may be preserved an much as posaihle. 
If ytiur Honours order me to hand over tiiese papers I 
will do it, 

212, {Mr. ILjIL) We quite appreciate your view, Mr, 
Spottbitb, nnd the motive that has actuated you, but we 
think there is no doubt whatever that legally the papets 
ougJjt Ui be handed over P— I bow to your Horiour^s (de- 
cision—there tiiey lire (the mtm icj?/vj handed io th' Sen'G- 
tanj). There is another matter I wish to mention, I 
left London on the Itith August for Scotland, which ii 
my usual Jiabit, and I did not return to London tLU the 
29th September, I was away six weeks jtnd a day, I 
never saw my cHcnt after the lith or lotli August^ but 
on til© 22nd September I received a letter from him, 
which I will liand to your Hououtb, informing me he was 
going to take Ids annual hoHday, but that he shouU re- 
quest me, if there was any necessity for my doing so, to 
attend here and represent hiim There is the letter which 
perhaps your Honours would like to read (hand in tj the 
S'jfiif] to the Comnim'ioncn), I received that letter when I 
was in Scotland and I have not seen him since tlie 
15th August, 

213. {Mr. HolL) We are obhged to you for the letter, 
{Thf ivitt7pm,) There is a another letter {Jtmidia^ mmo} 

which I have received since my retuni to town ; it ifl a 
letter which I have fo^md in the custody of my clerk 

21 i. (Mr. Jeiiii^.) This letter mentions Mr. Crompton 
Roberts' pflfls book, of course we shall want that ?— It ifi 
hei'c sealed up, and this is his private ledger and thefcey» 
I have not broken the seal. 



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215. la that the pass book of Mr. Roberts' bank m 
LcjnJon ? — I assTune it is. 

216. He had an account here had he not for the pnr- 
jH ises of this election P — I only know from information 
derived from the hearing of the petition. Yon see there 
is Ms writing **Not to be opened imless required" in 
Ihji absence abroad ; that is his writing and that is his 
seal. This is his private ledger, and there is the key 
enclosed in that letter, but I do not think I can hand 
tliese books over until I am speciaUy required by you to 
do so. 

217. Of course we shall order you to ? — I bow to your 
decision. I place myself entirely in your Honoxir's 
L^tuls, but I think my duty to my chent is to see whether 
yoTi require me to produce them. 

218. You are quite right. You have said everything 
that a solicitor and a gentleman should say, but we order 
yfM to produce them ?— I bow at once to your decision. 
Mr. Orompton Roberts always takes a holiday of three 
OT four months every autumn. I know where he is ; at 
kajst, I do not know where he is now, but I can get to 
know at once. I believe he is at Pau. It is entirely at 
yoTLT command, and I hope you quite understand that. 

219. Yes. There was, was there not, an election 
fu?count kept here ? — I do not know it of my own know- 
ledge, only from hearing it in evidence and having the 
eouduct of the petition. 

220. We shall ask you, please, to produce this pass 
iKfok and ledger, and we will take the responsibility of 
telling you to hand them in now ? — I think I shall open 
them first. 

221. Certainly. (The witness hroke the seals and exa- 
mr. I' dtlie hooks)?— There Bxe the pass book and ledger 
{fin nding the same to fhe Commissioners), 

222. That is quite right on both Mr. Crompton 
Roberts' part and yours, and, of course, the Commis- 
simicrs will be very careful that nobody but themselves 
and the secretary sees them. These are the only account 
books, I suppose, or is there any other account book P — 
Not that I know of ; I should doubt that there is one. 
He is a very methodical man of business as well as a man 
of large fortune. 

223. And these are all the papers that you think there 
were ?— All the papers that I have in connexion with the 
petition are there. 

224. You did not present any recriminatory petition 
against Sir Julian Oildsmid? — He did not claim the 

225. Then, of course, you did not. I do not know 
wljjither when you were down here you devoted yourself 
at ?J1 to inquiring whether there had been any corrupt 
pmctices on Sir Julian Gk)ldsmid*s behalf ? — I did not. 
Inddentally, I had reason to believe that there had been, 
bnt I did not f oUow it out in a legal manner. 

226. Have you got any information you could give us 
wttli regard to anything that you heard of corrupt 
pinctices on the part of the Liberals at the contested 
election ? — Only rumour. 

227. Of course, there may be rumour and rumour, 
C;tn you give us anything that would suggest corrupt 
pr^ictices on the part of Sir Julian Goldsmid or ms 
agents ; did you hear of anything ?— I did not. Rumours, 



of course, were rife, but I never inquired, I never 5. Spofforth. 

attempted to get up a recriminatory case, as the seat was 

not prayed. 5 Oct. 1880. 

228. You did not direct any inquiries to be made with " 
regard to anything Sir Julian Goldsmid and his agents 
had done, did you ? — I did direct inquiries. In the first 
instance I did that because counsel advised I should in- 
quire, but it was determined to abandon that part of the 
case, and nothing practically was done ; no evidence was 
obtained against Sir Julian Goldsmid. 

229. Did you send some one down to make inquiries 
as to the doings on the Liberal side at the contested 
election ? — I did not. 

230. Your clerk I mean? — I had a clerk who was a 
voter here, and Mr. Crompton Roberts asked me to allow 
him to accompany him as a sort of secretary, as he knew 
the place, and I did allow him to accompany him, but 
only really as his private secretary in his capacity as 
clerk. To teU you the truth, I did not make the charge 
to Mr. Crompton Roberts, which I was entitied to for 
his services. 

231. What was that clerk's name? — Simmonds. He is 
in my service now. 

232. When the petition was presented, you did begin 
to make some inquiries as regards the conduct of the 
election on the Liberal side ? — I did 

233. Who made those inquiries for you ? — I made them 
myself, incidentally. One or two gentlemen in the town 
gave me information. 

234. And you followed it up to some extent ?— What 
you mean by that is, evidence against Sir Julian. 

235. Yes?— Well, I did not. The only evidence I 
really followed up to any extent was an attempt at sub- 
ornation by the petitioner's solicitor. It was subornation 
against a man named Elliott ; but that was not a case of 
practically bribing. 

236. Against a man named Elliott you say ? Was he 
a voter? — Yes, I beHeve he was. 

237. How did that turn out ? What did you find to be 
the facts of that case when you came to look into it ? — 
The facts seemed to be, that Messrs. Lewis and Lewis 
had several men down here for some time, and they got 
hold of a man named Elliot through a man named Joe 
Browne, who had been, I understood, a canvasser for the 
Conservatives. Browne offered Elliott 30/. if he would 
spUt. Elliott said he would. He would consider about it. 
He was taken up to London, taken to Messrs. Lewis* 
office, and underwent a long examination, I believe by 
Mr. George Lewis. His evidence was taken down in 
writing, and before he left, 5Z. or 6/. was given to >nm in 
gold, and a promissory note was given to bim signed by 
Joe Browne ; and that promissory note, I believe, is still 
in the possession of some gentleman. 

238. Did you receive any information (whether you 
followed it up or not) that there had been corrupt 
practices on the Liberal side at the contested election ? — 
Only rumours. 

239. Are you able to connect that rumour with any 
names you can give us of persons who benefited by those 
corrupt practices, or practised them ? — ^No, I cannot, for 
the reason that I never followed out the recriminatory 
charges, the seat not being daimed. 



Geobgb Mebobb sworn and examined. 



Cr. Mercer. 



240. (Mr. Turner.) You are the town derk of Deal ?— . 
Yes, and also clerk to the magistrates. 

241. You heard Mr. Surrage*s evidence as to the con- 
etitaency of Deal and Sandwich and Walmer. Do you 
agree to that ? — Yes, I believe it to be correct. 

242. Xow tell us something about the population of 
Deal, and the trade of it ?— The population of Deal at 
tie last census was a little over 8,000, and I apprehend 
ft Tvill be found to be increased at the next census. The 
trade of Deal is not very extensive. We are engaged in 
I>oat building, in supplying ships with supplies and in 
c&se of loss, and the sale of vegetables and fish. I am 
not aware that there is any other trade. We do a little 
bock making. 

243. Are there many engaged in boat building? — I 
tliiok there are about four boat builder's establishments. 

244. Do they build ships here ?— No. 

245. Of lat^ years, in your opinion, has the trade 
decreased or increased ? — I should fancy it is very much 
tLa same. I do not think it has fluctuated much either 
0116 way or the other. Boat building I do not think is 



quite so 
reduced. 



good as it was. That is the only trade 



246. Is the population chiefly composed of the lower 
class, if I may so call them ; the labouring classes ?— 
The population of our town is composed in great measure 
of watermen, men engaged at sea, a large number of 
Trinity pilots, the labouring class, and tradesmen, and 
the usu^ population of a country town. 

247. Are there any resident gentry ? — Yes, a fair share 
of resident gentry. 

248. You have heard Mr. Surrage's account of the 
number of freemen ? — Yes, they have fallen off very much 
indeed. 

249. With reference to your municipal elections here, 
are they all poUtical ? — Not in the least. I do not think 
politics have ever been brought into the matter what- 
ever. 

250. How is your town councQ composed? — The 
mayor, 6 aldermen, and 18 councillors. 

251. How many go out every year ? — One-third every 
year, and the aldermen every three years. 



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252. Hfive yon aa annual election of councillors ?— Yes. 
I do not reiKember since I have been town clerk that we 
have ever hatl an election without a contest — local 
matters and that Bort of thing— drainage or not drainage. 

2 53. But the e I ection depends entirely on local matters ? 
— ^Entirelv, 

25 i. And no pohtical feeling? — I do not think I 
can rememi>er any political feeling ever being intro- 
duced* 

255- Do yoti know at the present moment the opinions 
of the town coimcil?--! could tell you if I have the 
names. I aLniost think they are evenly balanced, but I 
can tell you exactly, I think. I have not the list before 
me now, but I will take care you shall know, as far as I 
can say, what tbdr political opinions are. 

256." Who are the principal Conservatives in Deal? 
Can you tell us?— I myself take no part in elections in 
any way, and Uie^fore I know but very little about it. 

257. I daresay you have an opinion? — I think the 
Conservative leaders are Dr. Hulk, who is the chairman ; 
and Mr, Netherole takes an active part. 

258. That is on the Conservative side ?— Yes. 

259, Surely there are more than that ?— Oh yes, there 
are more than that ; but as I say, I take but very little 
part in it, and I really do not know who was engaged 
very mnoh in it Mr, Matthews is a large brewer. ^ I 
dare say he takes an interest in it. I shall call to mind 
other names perhaps, 

260, On the other side who are the principal leaders ? 
— In the same way, I know but very httle about it ; but 
there is a local conmiittee here. Mr. Brown, I think, is 
one of the committee, and Mr. Cottem. 

261. What is Mr. Brown?— He is a retired gentleman. 

262, Do you know whether he took a part in the last 
election ?— I think he was election agent. 

263. Is there a CoDseryative committee or institution of 
any kind ?— I think there is. I think the names of all 
the committee are pubhshed in the local paper. 

264, In any local paper?— I think so; any local 
pax>er. 

265. Can yon tell rao how many public-houses there 
ate in Deal ?— Yes, I have the register of them here. 
You mean for the election year 1879-80 ? 

266. Yes?— There are 74 fully licensed houses, and 
30 partly beer-houses and partly grocers and wine 
merchants. 

267. Strictly speaking, there are 74 public-houses ? — 
Yea, fully licensed. 

268. And then there Rxe beer-houses ?— Yes, 14 beer- 
houses in addition, 

269, Tlmt is in Deal alone?— Yes. 

270, You cannot speak to Sandwich perhaps? — No, I 
catmot„ 

271, Or Walmer?— No. 

272, Of these 74 fully licensed houses, can you tell 
me what they are rated at? — I can tell you their 
annual value. If it is any assistance to the Commis- 
sioners, I will hare a Hat made of each house, and the 
value, 

27^^. That will be the best way ?— I will take care you 
shall have it. 

274, You mentioned 30 besides the 74. Did that 
include the 14 ?— Yes, 

276. 14 beer-houses and 16 licensed shops?— Yes. 

276. (Mt\ Hull] Perhaps you would let us have a list 
containing the names and addresses, and whether 
licensed f uHy, or not, and the rateable value ? — ^Yes. 

277. (Mr. Ttiiii^r,) You were here last election, I 
suppose ?— Yea, 

278. And you saw what was going on ?— Yes. 

279. You saw the number of flags, and so on, that 
were being ueetl ? — Yes, 

280. Did it strike you as being unusual?— It was 
mnuflual ; but I shoultl mention Deal and Walmer are 
somewhat peculiarly aituated, as you will see when you 
have become a little more familiar with us. There are 
flag staffs the whole length of the place, and boats on 
the beach. We are alwiiys in the habit of having flags, 
riagft here are not in the same category as in an inh^d 
place, 

281. But at this particular election there was a fever 
of fliigB ? — Certainly. 

282. And rosettes?— I did not notice rosettes as^ 
bein^ much more nmnerous than usual, but flags 
eertamly werfii 



283. Were there a great many hojB going about with 
boards ? — 

284. Of course you were here at the election of 1868 P 
—Yes. 

285. And 1874 P— Yes. 

286. As compared with the election of 1874, was Uiere 
any increase in the show of flags ?— Certainly. 

287. Did you observe a great emplovment of con- 
veyances gomg on ?— On the daj of the" election I was 
scarcely in the town more than a quarter of an hour- 
There were certainly carriages flying about in all direc- 
tions ; flys. 

288. In Deal we have heard there are three polling 
districts P — ^Yes. 

289. Where are they situated in the town ; how far 
would a voter have to go p-^One was here, another was 
at the National Schools, and tbe third was at the 
Parochial Schools near the railway station, 

290. Of course they were appointed by you ?— Yes, 

291. As a general rule I suppose there was no necefi- 
sily for the conveyance of votei-s to the pt>lling place ? — 
Well, I should suppose the utmost distance might be 
a mile. 

292. We have had given to us the members at the 
previous election at which the Liberals were successful 
Can you account for the majority for Mr, Eoberts, aa 
against the previous majority for the Liberals ?— X tlunk 
it is only a matter of opinion. We considered cursives 
well represented by our late members, Mr, Knatchbull- 
Hugessen and Mx, Brassey, 1 think they had the 
confldence of the constituency* 

293. They had P— They had certainly. At this elec- 
tion they were independent altogeOier ; tJiey were 
neither of them candidates, and pn>bfll>ly that mtij have 
had some influence ; the change of sides,' 

294. The voters did not abstain from voting but went 
over to the Conservatives P— I think several of th<^e 
gentiemen who were not of the way of thinking of 
Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen, voted for him because he 
was much respected. 

295. Did you observe that at the last election the 
number of officials employed were more than in 1874 ? 
— I really cannot answer that tiucBtion. I took no jmrt 
in either election, but I do not think there was 
much difference. I imagine they were pretty much 
the same. 

296. Did you on the day of the election see much 
drunkenness going on ?— No ; and 1 should hare biown 
it as clerk to the magistrates, I do not think there was 
a single case, if my memory is right. I do not remember 
an instance. It was particularly quiet in that respect. 

297. You were surprised vom^elf, I suppose, at the 
result of the election p— Well, I was. 1 was uot sur- 
prised at the result. I expected the result would have 
been so, but I was surprised at the number. 

298. I think you said that the greater number of the 

population of Deal are composed of boatmen p Not 

the greater number ; a great number. 

299. A large proportion P— I am unable to say, but 
still a very large proportion get tlieir living on the water 
by assisting the ships. Of course there is a good deal 
of lodging letting, and I should say tlmt a great many 
of the public houses let lodgings as well. 

300. Do you agree with Mr. Siurage as to the 
ntunber of freemen of Deal ? 

{Mr, Surrage,) There are about 13 living at BeaL 
They are all freemen of Sandwich ; not freemen of 
Deal. They happened to be residing at Deal those few 
days. 

(Tlie Witness,) We have no right to freemen here. 
There are freemen at Sandwich. 

301. (Mr, Jetcne,) Deal has no freemen of its own ?— 
No. 

302. (Mr, Turner,) I have asked jou about the boating 
class. With regard to what jou call the * * along shore " 
men, are they men who change their residence Teiy 
much, and go about a good deal ? — No. 

303. Are they resident here ?— Entirely, 

304. There are no class of men of that kind who a?& 
migratory ? — No, they were bom and bre<T here ; in fact 
they will not go away. They prefer keeping on the 
beach here to going to sea very often, 

305. Are they a hard-working class of menP— Cer- 
tainly. They are always on the look out ; always on 
the watch. They are always on the qin rive, 

306. Are they men who ai-e hard up a good deaiP— 
I dare say a great many of them are« 



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307. Out of work, I mean ? — ^Tes, at times when there 
is HtUe doing on the water of oonrse they are in want 
to some extent Their living depends entirely npon 
that 

308. (Mr, Jeuno.) I suppose there are certain publio- 
hoases they frequent, do tney not ? — Those particularly 
on the beach. 

309. Have these boating people the name of a corrupt 
class? — I do not think so. They are like everybody 
else, I suppose. I am not aware that they are specially 
different from any of the rest of the population. 

310. I mean at previous elections where there has 
been money spent ; do you think that more of that 
money has gone to the boating population than to the 
rest of the population? — I cannot say. I never take 
any part in the elections myself, and know nothing of 
^e working of them. 

311. (Mr, Hon.) Are they a class of men who are 
likely to be influenced by having a good deal of work 
given to them in hauling flags ? — I can hardly say that 
they would be more so than anybody else. They are 
fond of flags, and showing their colours. 

312. Is it the flag, or what they get out of it ?— I must 
leave that to you. I am not able to answer that ques- 
tion. I daresay they do not do it for love. They are 
like everybody else. 

313. I am not q^uite sure that I understand one thing. 
Too spoke of 30 hcensed premises as distinguished from 
74 hcensed houses ; 14 of those are beer-houses, what 
are the other 16 ? — They are grocers licenses. 

314. They are grocers who have licenses to sell beer, 
irine, and so on?— Just so. They are refreshment 
hoosee for the sale of Gilbey's wines, &c 

315. There are 14 licensed beer-shops, and 74 licensed 
pubUc-houses in Deal P— Yes, I think so. I have taken 
them out myself ; 14 beer houses, and 74 fidly licensed 
houses. 



316. Did you hear at all of any employment as can- 
vassers and messengers at this election more than usual P 
— No, not more than usual There have always been a 
great many employed canvassing. 

317. Do you not think there were more at this election 
than at the previous election ? — Really I am unable to 
form an opinion about it. If there is anything which 
you wish to ask as to Walmer I shall be happy to afford 
the information. I am clerk to the local board. 

318. (Mr, Turner,) As to public houses at Walmer, 
can you give us the number? — That the clerk to the 
magistrates will give you. 

819. (Mr. HolU) Of how many members is the local 
board composed ?— The local board of Walmer is com- 
posed of IB members. 

320. How about their political opinions? — I do not 
think there is any balance one way or the other very 
much. 

321. What is the principal class of voters there? — 
Watermen, boatmen. 

322. There are fewer tradesmen and more boatmen. 
There are more boatmen in proportion to the tradesmen 
at Walmer?— I do not think so. I think the proportion 
would be the same as between those two classes. 

323. There are boatmen and tradesmen ?— Boatmen, 
tradesmen, resident gentry, artisans, and lodging house 
keepers. 

324. You account for the change of opinion by the fact 
of the late member going away ?— Yes, and Sir Julian 
CK)ldsmid being a stranger. 

325. Mr. Roberts was a stranger too, was he not ? — 
Yes, but he had been here a week or two before. 

326. Subject to the fact that he was here for a few 
days, can you give anjr reason why Mr. Roberts was 
more popular than Sir Julian Goldsmid?— I cannot, 
exoe^jt what I have said. There had been a change of 
opimon probably. 



G. Mercer, 
5 Oct. 1880. 



RiOHABD JoYNS Emmkbsok swom and examined. 



327. (Mr, HolL) I think you are clerk to the justices 
it Sandwich ? — I am. 

328. Have you anjr connexion with Walmer?— Yes; 
the justioes at ^uidwich license public-houses at Walmer. 
They are within our jurisdiction. Walmer is in the 
hberty of Sandwich. 

S99. I think you were agent for Sir Julian Goldsmid 
at Sandwich ?— I was. 

330. Can you give me the number of public-houses at 
Sandwidi ? — In Sandwich they number 33 licensed 
houses. 

331. Are they all licensed?— They are all licensed 
pobhc^ouses and beer-houses. 

332. I do not know whether you can distinguish 
between what I call the licensed public-houses or beer- 
houses, and those licensed to sell spirits? — I cannot tell 
you the distinction now. There are 33 fuUv hcensed 
pubHc-bonses and beer-houses altogether; that is the 
spiiit and beer too. 

333. Does that include grocers ? — No, it does not. 

334. Call you give us a list of those houses, the names 
ttud addresses, and the rateable values ? — Yes ; I have 
ta^en out a Ust which I will hand you in (handing same) 
'With the names of the licencees, and the rateable value 
attached to each house. You will also find the same 
iuformation witii regard to Walmer. 

335. I see that the rateable values vary from 8L up 
*o 27?., and one is 47^ A large proportion vary from SL 
to 15/, ?— Yes, it is according to the value of the house. 

336, Theii for Walmer there are 24 Hcensed pubKo- 
bons6^ ^^ beer-houses ?— Yes. 

^„fi I see the majority of them are about 15L, but 
th^ are some above that P— Yes, that is about it. 

Q3g. How is Walmer governed ?— By a local board. 

339. Are they elected periodically ?— Yes, every year. 

510. How are they selected ?— I ihink the most eligible 
parties for the duty are selected from the tradesmen. 

341. Is there any Liberal committee in Walmer P— I 
think not. I think there is one in Deal, to which they 
belong. I think the Liberal party in Walmer, when 
they go to a meeting, come down to a little association 
in Deal 

342. With regard to the Conservative party, is there 
any Conservative association or committee in Walmer, 
do you know ? — I do not know. 

943. Oan you tell me who were the leading Liberals 
in Walmer?— Yes ; there is Mr. James Ausenn. 

Q8334. 



344. 
346. 
346. 
Rose. 
347. 
348. 



(Mr, Turner.) What is he? — He is a builder. 
(Mr, Holl) Who else p— Then there is Mr. Rose. 
What is his Christian name P— Edward Thomas 



R.J. 
JBmmeretm^ 



What is he ?— He is a tailor. 
Are there any others that you remember — Com 
wall ? — Cornwall lives in Deal. 

349. Bammell ?— Rammell Hves in Deal. 

350. Can you tell me the names of any other active 
Liberals in Walmer ? — There is Edward Thomas Wood- 
cock. He is a builder. 

351. Any others ? — I do not recollect them particularly. 

352. Now, among the Conservatives, who were the 
active people in Walmer? — ^You see I am not a great 
deal over there. 

353. Can you give me the names of any of them P You 
know them, I suppose, by repute ? — I can only give the 
most influential whom I know to be Conservatives. There 
is Mr. Mathews, of Walmer. 

354. Who else ? — ^I should say Mr. Denne. I do not 
know liis Christian name. 

355. What is he P— He is a builder. 

356. Can you remember any others P — No, I do not 
recollect any others. There were a great many. 

357. Are there any manufactories in Walmer ? — No, I 
am not aware of any manufactories. There is a very 
large brewery. Mr. Thompson or Mr. Matthews is the 
brewer. 

358. Besides the brewery, what industries are there F 
— Hiere is nothing there. 

359. Nothing but retail tradesmen P— Retail trades- 
men. There is a little Ashing. They send some flsh to 
London from there, but that is not very much. 

360. To which class do the greatest number of voters 
belong, the tradesmen or the boatmen ? — I should think 
the greater number are the gentry and the middle class. 

361. Middle-class tradesmen ? — Yes, there are a very 
great many gentry. 

362. Are they more than the boatmen ? — I should say 
so ; a great deal. 

363. (Mr. Turner.) Are the gentry resident ?— Yes. 

364. (Mr. HoU.) You acted as agent for Sir Julian 
Goldsmid, at Sandwich, I believe ?— Yes. 

365. Had you anything to do with the election at 
Walmer?— No, nothing; not in the acting part of it. 



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SANPIVIOH ELECTION COMMISSION : 



B.J. 

EmmerBon, 

5 Oct. 1880. 



Mr, Edwards acted at Deal and Walmer, and myself at 
Sandwich. 

366. When were you first appomted Sir Julian (}old- 
smid's agent? — Immediately after I first saw Sir Julian 
Gk>ldsmid. 

367. When was that ? — There was no regular appoint- 
ment, but I became his representative. Perhaps I 
should save your time by stating that at an early period 
Sir Julian Goldsmid wrote to me to ask me whether I 
thought he would be acceptable as a candidate by the 
liberal party. I replied te him at that time that we 
had not heard of Lord Braboume's elevation to the 
Peerage, that notiliing had occurred in the borough ; but 
it was reported so, and that immediately anything did 
occur I would communicate with him. After that we 
were searching for a candidate. I then went to London, 
and called upon Sir Julian Gk>ldsmid, and he returned 
ihat evening from London to DeaL 

368. When was that?— That was on the 4th or 5th of 
May. It was just the week of the election. He came 
down with me on the Monday. The nomination was on 
the Saturday, and the polling took place on the following 
Monday. It was all very quick. Of course Mr. Cromp- 
ton Boberts had been in the field a week before we 
arrived. 

369. Was it on the 5th of May that he came down ? — 
No, it must have been later than the 5th of Mav. It was 
qh a Monday that he came down. It was on the 10th of 
May. I went to London that morning. 

370. He came back with you ? — He came back with me 
in the afternoon, and he b^gan the canvassing on the fol- 
lowing morning. 

371. I presume from his writing to you that you 
occupy a position amongst the Liberal party ?— Yes, I 
am known as the person perhaps who represento the 
Liberal party to a great extent in the borough of Sand- 
wich, 

372. Do you represent them in rejgistration ?— I attend 
to it myself, and my name also is filed at the central 
Liberal Asscxsiation in London, therefore if there are any 
communications I generally receive them. 

373. Kindly give us the whole account. When did 
you first hear from Sir Julian Goldsmid ?— It was a week 
or 10 days before that. 

374. Bo you know how Sir Julian Goldsmid came to 
communicate with you? — I think very likely, I am not 
certain, through Mr. Brassey. We hcfard that Sir Julian 
Goldsmid was one of the selected candidates at the Uni- 
versity. Sir John Lubbock, and others, were also 
selected. We did not communicate witii Sir John 
Lubbock, but we fixed upon Sir Julian Goldnnid, 
simply because we heard that Sir John Lubbock was 
certain to be the selected candidate of the University, 
and we thought it was more certain that he would come 
down. We were anxious to get a candidate. We had 
lost a week or 10 days. 

375. When did you first communicate with him then ? 
— ^Immediately, in reply to his letter. I have not that 
letter here, but I can find it. It was before Lord Bra- 
boume's elevation to the Peerage, and before he came 
down. Sir Julian Gbldsmid had heard of the report 
through the papers, and he immediately wrote to me to 
inquire whether I thought he would be an accepted 
candidate, if he came down, by the Liberal party. Then 
I wrote to him that we had heard nothing whatever of 
the matter, and communicated with those who I thought 
had any interest in it, promising that I would let him 
know again. 

376. I daresay you can find the letter ? — I think I can. 
I will endeavour to find it. 

377. Was there any further correspondence between 
you in writing? — I think I wrote to him once after- 
words, but I am not certain, reminding him that I would 
let him know. 

378. I will ask you to produce the letter from 
Sir Julian Goldsmid, and copies of all letters that you 
wrote to him ? — Yes, I will endeavour to find them. 

379. Were there any negotiations previously to that ? 
—With Sir Julian Goldsmid ? 

380. With other people? — Yes; I will not say 
negotiations, because we had none, but I think 
it was on a Tuesday (I cannot tell you what date 
that was) that I received a letter from Lord 
Braboume, stating that Sir John Adye was desirous of 
getting into Parliament, and at the moment I received 
my letter he was on his way down here, and that I should 
receive a communication from him. I met him at the 
Sandwich Bailway Station, and came down to Deal with 



him, where there were a few friends who had assembled 
— not more than half a dozen — and we then told him 
that Mr. Crompton Boberts had been in the field for some 
time, and that considerable expenses were being incurred. 
He immediately said he was not prepared to spend any 
money upon the election, and that he had been led to 
believe it would be an uncontested one. Under these 
circumstances I at once said, " You had better go back 
'' again," and he returned to London immediately— that 
night. There was no communication with h\rt\ before, 
and there was nothing more th^a I have related to yon 
now which passed at that meeting. 

381. Was any sum mentioned which it would be neoee- 
sary for him to expend? — ^In all probability I might 
have told him that perhaps it woidd be necessary for 
him to be prepared with 2,0002. . or something like that 
I think there was a sum of that Idnd mentioned. 

382. Was it not more than that P— No, I think - not 

383. Was he not told that he should be prepared to 
spend 4,000L ?— No, I do not recollect hearing that 
stated. I did not state that, but he might have been 
told so. 

384. Who were the parties who were assembled to 
meet him P-— There was Mr. Edmund Brown, who is the 
agent for election expenses, and Mr. Edwin Cornwall. 

385. Cannot you recollect any others P — I can give 
them to you by referring or thinking upon them and the 
time, but there were five or six perhaps. 

386. You cannot remember anybody else at the 
present moment? — No, but there were several others. I 
can give them to you. 

387. Perhaps you will kindly let us have them?— I 
will do so. 

388. Was any sum mentioned, or anything said about 
the sum which Mr. Cronipton Boberts was spending ?— 
No ; I was living at Sandwich ; I had no idea. 

389. What was said with regard to Mr. Crompton 
Boberte P — It was only understood Ihat he was spending 
a great deal of money here. It was simply romom; 
NoDody could point out how it was, and if you asked in 
what way you could not ascertain. 

390. Do you remember what was said by these gentle- 
men to Sir John Adye about the exp^diture of Mr. 
Crompton Boberts ? — It was spoken of in a general way 
that great expenses were being incurred, and would have 
to be incurred, and therefore if he was not prepared, it 
would be better for him to retire ; in fact, they could not 
entertain him. 

391. It was no use coming here unless he was willing 
to spend a considerable sum of money ? — Yes. 

392. You say you think 2,000Z. was mentioned?— I 
think he was told 2,0002. 

393. Was it not more than that P — I do not think I 
mentioned more than 2,000Z., and I think I told him that 
he would spend that in canvassing between Sandwich 
and Deal. I found at once he was not prepared to go 
through a contested election, and he at once said, ** Then 
I am not prepared to spend the money." It was an easy 
thing for me when he came to Deal to introduce him, 
and to say, " Sir John Adye is not prepared to contest a 
contested election," and then he wordd have passed from 
DeaL 

394. You think you cannot fight a contested election 
without spending 2,000Z. and upwards P — Yes. 

395. Why is that P— Simply on account of the great 
expenses which are incurred, numy of them of a most 
irregular character, with regard to fiags, booths, and 
every expenditure of that kind, which is a very serious 
matter. 

396. You think you cannot fight an election here with- 
out spending money in that way ?— From what I hear. 
I am not here on the spot. I only hear of it afterwards. 
Sandwich is comparatively a snialler thing as far as 
that goes. 

397. But you think, from what you have heard and 
know, that you cannot fight an election here unless yon 
are prepared to spend a very considerable sum of money 
in flags, public-houses, and canvassers? — Yes, I am 
obliged to state that as my candid opinion. 

398. You cannot fight an election except by employing 
a great number of persons. Then Sir John Adye, as I 
understand you, intimated that he would not contest the 
borough ?— -He said he was not prepared to fight a eon- 
tested election at all, and that he had come down here 
under the impression that the seat would not be 
contested. 

399. Then you communicated with Sir Julian Gold- 
smid P — Then I communicated again -npth'Sir Jidian Gold* 

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Bmid, and he wrote to me to say that he was one of the 
selected candidates for the University, and he could not 
give me a decided answer until the selection there was de- 
cided. Then I went up to him and said, **Imu8thavean 
answer this very day. If you will say * No, you will not 
go down to the borough, * I shall seek a candidiekte. '' 

400. And Sir Julian Goldsmid came back ?— And Sir 
Julian Goldsmid came back. 

401. I suppose you had some conversation with him as 
to ways and means, and what was necessary in order to 
give nim a chance of success ? — Yes, but there was no 
precise amount mentioned. 

402. Tell us what took place between you and him 
with regwrd to that ?— In general words, I told him he 
could not contest the election for less than 3,000Z. 

403. And, I presume, his coming down intimated that 
he was willing to spend that amount ? — No ; he most 
indignantly replied that he could spend no money except 
upon legal expenses and so on ; but, having stated all 
that, he returned, and there was no further conversation. 
He did not assent to expenditure except legal expendi- 
ture ; but, on the contrary, he would not be returned by 
Imbery, or anything of the kind. He afterwards returned 
to Sandwich with me. 

404. Do yon know what amount Sir Julian Goldsmid 
did pay down to either yourself or other agents ?— Yes, 
I blow what I received myself and I have heard of the 
sran which Mr. Edwards received. 

405. I will not ask you what you heard was paid to 
Mr. Edwa«is, but what did y^ou receive yoursdf ? — I 
received 700^. odd ; 760^. I think. I received sums of 
210^, 200^.. and 350^. 

406. Have you the dates on which those payments 
were made V — I have not the dates. I thought you would 
not examine me in detail this afternoon. 

407. With a view of not troubling you a second time 
I thought ^when you oame here in an official capacity 
we would go into the other matters ?— I have not the 
dates when I received the amounts. 

408. Yon say he came down with you on the 10th May P 
-Yes. 

409. When did you receive the first cheque after that ? 
-On the Thursday I received 200^. 

410. On the Thursday after ?— Yes. 

411. That was the 13th ?— Yes. On the following day 
1 had 210^. more. Then Messrs. Lewis and Lewis 
remitted me afterwards, to pay the expenses, 350^. ; that 
IB since the election and since the petition. 

412. Then what you had before the petition was 410^. ; 
200/. on the 13th and 210/. on the 14th. Was that all 
you had before the petition ?-— Yes. 

413. Since the petition what have you received? — I 
received 350/. the other day from l^iessrs. Lewis and 
Lewis. 

414. Had you at the time when Sir Julian Ooldsmid 
came down any organisation in Sandwich on the Liberal 
side ?— I had organised as far as I possibly could, the 
time being veijr limited, by dividing the list of electors 
amongst our friends who would take them. We divided 
them among ourselves to go and canvass. There was 
that organisation and nothing else. 

415. I mean was there any standing organisation at 
that time when Sir Julian Goldsmid came down ? — No, 
none whatever. 

416. No Liberal Association ? — No. 

417. No Liberal Conmiittee ? — No, and wo are not in 
the habit of meeting except at times like this. Always 
on the registration I call a meeting of a few friends who 
take an active part on behalf of the Liberal party ; they 
meet me and we go through the list, and the names of 
people who are not entitled to bo in the list are taken 
out, Excq)t at those periods we have no meeting at 
all, and we have no organisation. 

418. [Mr, Jeune,) You are only speaking of Sandwich? 
— Only of Sandwich. 

419. {Mr. Roll ) Are you speaking of Walmer ? — No. 
^0. Have you had anything to do with any association 

at Wahner ? — No, nor here. I do not belong here. 

421. All your evidence which you are now giving with 
regard to the election is with regard to Sandwich ? — Yes. 

422. You say you had no organisation ; what arrange- 
u^nt did you make ? — I would take a certain number of 
Dames myself. I would take one of the parishes for me 
to call upon tiie voters. 

423. Did you divide Sandwich as a parliamentary 
borou^ into districts ? — It would only be amongst three 
or four individuals — ^nothing more tbftTi that. 



424. Each took a district? — No, it is not a district 
We took the names simply because in going through the 
names I should be more acquainted with one name than 
another, and perhaps one voter lived a few doors from 
my house ; therefore the parties I was acquainted with 
would be put in my list. We should divide the list in 
that way in order that they might be canvassed. 

425. You did not have districts, but you had a list of 
the persons and particular individuals you were best 
acquainted with ? — Yes. 

426. Can you give me the names of persons who each 
took a list ? — Yes ; Mr. Coleman. 

427. I suppose you took one ? — I took one ; Mr. Cole- 
man would take another ; Mr. Woodruff would take one ; 
Mr. Harrison, whose name has been mentioned before, 
would take one — both Harrisons, and Mr. Cottew. I 
think I have mentioned them all now. 

428. There were six different parties, each of whom 
took a list ? — ^Yes ; that was at the period I am speaking 
about, and not as regards Sir Julian Gbldsmid. 

429. Would you six take between you the whole of 
the constituency ?— No, we did not do that. These are 
only parties perhaps that Sir Julian GoldsEoid would not 
have time to call upon and could not see. The con- 
stituency do Uot like to be canvassed by individuals. 
We are all known to each other here, and it has always 
been customary for a candidate to canvass every elector 
himself ; in fact we are frequently told, when we go to 
a man for his vote, ** No, I have not seen Sir Julian. I 
** shall not speak to vou." That has been the mode 
generally adopted in this borough ; but here there was 
only a week; there was no time, and I immediately 
went to work as you may suppose, and said, ** Sir Julian 
** cannot canvass the whole of Sandwich ; we will divide 
" and go and get the votes as well as we can." 

430. The six gentlemen whom you have mentioned 
were what I may caU volunteer canvassers ? — ^Yes. 

431. Had you any paid canvassers ?— I do not know ; 
but there might be one or two. We have never been in 
the habit of doing that at Sandwich— appointing paid 
canvassers. I think Mr. Woodruff did receive something 
for canvassing, but only for the day, I think, he was 
paid, or something of that kind. 

432. What is he ?— He has been mentioned to you. 
He is a tailor by trade in Sandwich, and he was the com- 
mittee clerk, for which he was paid lOZ., which will 
appear on the accounts when you go through them. 

433. It would be more convenient to take that alto- 
gether when we come to the accounts, but he was the 
only person you know of who was paid as a canvasser ? — 
Yes. 

434. I suppose I may take it there was no general 
committee? — No, no committee was appointed at all. 
We used to have a committee, but that we have left off 
for some time. 

435. Had you any canvass books P— Yes, we had can- 
vass books. 

436. Do you know where they are ?— Yes, I can put 
my hand upon them I think— the canvass books which 
denote the promises which we have ascertained. 

437. Had you reports from time to time ?— Simply in 
this way. When Sir Julian Goldsmid came in from a 
canvass of an hour or two, or something of that kind, I 
asked him, ** Where have you been to P " so as to en- 
deavour to keep the best account I could in my own book 
to see how he was proceeding. Hiat was my system. 
Then in the same way we also took down decided pro- 
mises from those who were canvassers for this voluntary 
committee as it were. 

438. In that way I suppose you kept made up from 
your different books or reports a list ?— Yes, it was a very 
difficult thing to do, but we kept the best account we 
could. 

439. You kept the best account you could of the per- 
sons you thought you could rely upon P— Yes. 

440. Were any clerks employed upon the work ? — In 
marking the books, it always depended upon me and the 
conamittee clerk, Mr. Woodruff. We used to keep the 
two books and nobody else. One was a canvassing book, 
which was kept by myself, or what we call a conunittee 
book, and a book was also handed to the candidate. 

441. The candidate had his canvassing book and you 
had your canvassing book in which you marked the 
names of your persons and his too ? — Yes. 

442. How many clerks had you employed as committee 
derksP — Only two. Mr. Woodruff and the assistant 
clerk, I forgot his name. 



ILJ. 

SmmersoH, 

5 Oct. 1880. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION : 



R J. 443. Then these gentlemen wbom yon have mentioned 

Ermnerson, are the only persona I may take it at Sandwich who took 

any particularly active part in the election? — Yes, I 

5 Oct. 18S0. think those are the only ones who took any particularly 

active part. There is Mr. Dorlman, bnt he did not take 

an active part and did not canvass. He simply took an 
active part by calling in at the committee room to enquire 
how we were preceding. He did not take an active part, 
and I think you are desirous of ascertaining those who 
were actively engaged. 

444. Did you employ any messengers P— Yes, there 
were several messengers. 

445. How many ? — I am not prepared to state although 
I have been &\1 through them. I do not know how 
many. 

446. Were there any men or boys employed to carry 
boards ?— No, we did not make use of anything of that 
kind. There was a certain number of messengers and 
a certain number of boys who attended on the day of 
the election. Some of the messengers were eng84a:ed 
during the active part of the election, but there were 
certain messengers employed who were appointed at 
the instance of a voter. A man comes and offers his 
services and he is employed. Our messengers were not 
overdone on this occasion. I think I have nothing to say 
with regard to the messengers. 

447. You think there was not an excessive number ?— 
No, I think not 

448. With regard to the expenditure for messengers 
we will take that when we come to the accounts. May I 
take it from what you say that in your opinion there 
was no excess in the employment of persons in any kind 
at Sandwich on the part of the Liberal party ? — ^No not 
as messengers. 

449. Were there any class of people?— No, not in 
employment, certainly. 

450. There were a considerable number of public- 
houses, were there not?— Yes, there were. 

451. How many ?— Do you wish me to say anything 
with regard to public-houses ? 

452. I should like you to do so ?— With regard to the 
account, which to a great extent I am answerable for to 
Mr. Brown, the election agent, it is a fact he did not 
give any order during the election, or at any time, but 
what expenses were incurred I am responsible to him 
for, and there is one item in particular which refers to 
public-houses. There are two sums of 20Z, which I gave 
to Mr. Coleman ; one 20Z. was given at an early period 
of the election for the expenses of the election, and more 
particularly he was directed to keep down the number of 
public-houses. You canhot prevent the treating ; it is 
an impossibility ; but my direction to him was to every 
morning visit those public- houses, and prevent bills 
being incurred. He will show you by details that he 
followed those instructions, and 20f., 40Z. altogether, 
was also expended, as the account will show you, in 
paying for rosettes and things of that sort. 

453. To pay for rosettes and colours ?— Yes. There 
were some bills incurred for banners and rosettes which 
have not been paid for now. I am only speaking now of 
the actual payments, but inasmuch as there were two 20/. 
(40Z.) which will appear in the expenses which were 
recognised by the agent for election expenses at my 
request, I simply thought it was right to explain to him 
how it was expended. That was in the hands of Mr. 
Oleman. 

454. And that was actually expended you say in 
rosettes ? — No, a portion of it. Some of it was expended 
in keeping down the treating in public-houses and paying 
the morning scores, the morning bills, and the other was, 
as I say, spent upon these receipts, and so on. 

455. Some portion of it was spent in having at different 
public-houses scores run up by persons, by our own 
friends, the evening before, or something of that kind? 
— Of course, there were instructions given not to permit 
treating at public-houses, but, notwithstanding that, it 
was impossible to prevent it, and in order to prevent the 
bills at the termination of the election, I took this 
money to pay them eve^ morning, so that we should 
have no public-house bills ; but after the election we 
had pubUc-house bills delivered to us to the extent of 
89i., which have not been paid. 

456. Can you give me the names of the public-houses 
that he went round to ? — Yes, he has prepared and can 
give you a list, showing the details of his expenditure. 

457. You cannot give it to us, I suppose ? — No, I have 
not it here. 

458. What is Mr. Coleman's Christian name ?— Benja- 
min Longden Coleman. 



459. What is he?— He is a farmer, market gardener 
and so on, and a greengrocer at Sandwich. * 

460. In what street?— In King Street. 

461. Then there were certain public-houses, of vhich 
he will give us the names, where he went to?— In order 
to prevent the veiy thing which occurred afterwards. 

462. He went down with the view of paying whateyer 
was incurred ?— Yes, but, notwithstanding that, we had 
these bills delivered afterwards, amounting to 89i. 
(handing the same to the Commisaimiei's). I have bronght 
those bills. Those bills were not handed in to the 
Judges, because we had not them at the time ; they were 
in the hands of Mr. Lewis. That is a list of the public, 
house bills as they were delivered, but those bills have 
not been paid, none of them whatever. That is the 89L 
Those are for some of our own voters, and no doubt any 
friends of theirs who went into these public-houses in 
the evening to sit down. 

463. These, I understand, have not been paid ?~No 
these have not been paid, but the particulars of the items 
that have been paid at the public-houses Mr. Coleman 
will give you the detail. 

464. Are these the same houses that he went roond 
to when he paid the bills ?— Yes. 

465. Then, Cork's public-house, that is the name of 
the party who keeps it, I suppose ? — Yes. 

466. At these public-houses he went round from day 
to day and made certain payments on account of biUs 
that had been incurred by different voters or their fnends 
for refreshments supplied at these houses ?— Yes. 

467. To what extent do yon know that he expended 
money in that way — paying scores run up by voters at 
these houses ?— I should say between 22L and 23Z. 

468. {Mr. Turner,) That is out of the 40L? — Yes, 
there were 22Z., and the object was to prevent ike bills 
running up. 

469. (Mr. Holl) The balance was spent in rosettes?— 
Yes. 

470. I do not quite follow you ; how would that prevent 
bilk running up ?— K we had not paid the small items, 
and let them go on for 7 or 8 or 10 days, we should have 
had an enormous sum delivered, and we should not be 
able to control it. 

471. But supposing you intimated to each of the 
landlords of these housed that you would not pay any- 
thing?— That might have been done, of course. 

472. (Mr. Turner.) On whose account was it paid?— 
It was paid on Sir Julian's account. 

473. For the election ?— Yes. All these pubhc-houses,^ 
no doubt, had their little coteries during the evening 
previous to the election, and the publicans themselves 
necessarily had very great influence over those that 
frequented the house, and, no doubt, were generally 
appointed canvassers, and have their committee meetings 
at a certain number of these houses which are known to 
be friendly. 

474. You say Coleman was instructed every morning 
to go round and pay these bills? — I gave him those 
instinctions. 

475. It was a direction to pay for refreshments 
supplied by these houses to different voters P— Yes, and 
it was to prevent having bills that would afterwards 
come in. 

476. At the time Mr. Coleman was making these daily 
payments, were the publicans running this other charge 
of 89L P — ^No, I tliink the large items were incurred 
upon the night of the election, that is my own impression. 
Some portion upon the day of the election and the other 
upon me evening of the election. 

477. The direction ^ven to Mr. Coleman to pay these 
scores ofl^ was given with a view of not afterwards having 
bilk delivered? — Yes. The large item were incurred 
during the excitement of the election, and upon the 
evening of the election. We have made no enquiiy 
whether those biUs are proper biUs or not, simply 
because Sir Julian immediately afterwards paid, "You 
" must not pay anything," and I have not had any letter 
from him since. 

478. I need hardly aek you whetiier you are aware 
that paying these scores at these different public-houses 
on accoimt of voters in this way was altogether illegal ? 
— ^I am quite aware of it, and I un very sorry to be 
placed in this position, but I come here to tell you every^ 
thing I know in relation to it, and I can do no more. 

479. I suppose it is the same thing that has been done 
at all previous elections P — Yes, it is. I do not know 
that I have had anything to do with that portion of it 
before, because it does not often fall to the legal adviser 



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to interfere with whai. I call money not in the ezpendi- 
tore. I have had money to pay afterwards, but not 
directly, and there is no donbt upon this occasion I did 
f^Ye this direction to Ck>leman. 

480. {Mr. HoU.) I ought to ask you this question, and 
I am sure you will answer me quite fairly, as you have 
done everything else so far as I can see, was tiiis done 
with a view of preventing the presentation of bills that 
ooold not be properly returned amongst the election 
expenses ?~To a certain extent I think very likely it 
was. 

481. You say the details of what Mr. Coleman paid 
from time to time, he will furnish us with ? — Yes. 

482. Are these the same public-houses that he went 
round to ? — Yes, some of them are. 

483. Most of them are, are they not ?— Yes. 

484. How many public-houses did you engage at 
Sandwich P — Seven, I think, they are also passed in the 
account, and have been paid since the election. 

485. Can you give me the names of those seven houses ; 
first of all was a room taken at each house P— Yes, they 
had4Z. a-pieoe. 

486. What was the arrangement with them ? — Simply 
that they should canvass Qie voters who were in the 
habit of frequenting their houses, and that wo should 
be permitted to meet there in the room as a committee 
room whenever we chose. 

487. You say they were paid U. each P— Yes. 

488. I have only two houses here, the "Bell " Hotel 
md Mrs. Hunter ; can you give me the names of the 
different houses P— You will find them mentioned in the 
voncher handed in by Mr. Coleman. 

489. Yes, it is so : the "Cinque Ports," the "Three 
Colts," the "Salutation," the "George and Dragon," 
the "Bricklayer's Arms," the "Green Posts," and the 
"Foreeter's Arms " P— Yes. 

490. What ifl the name of the landlord of the " Cinque 
Parts " ?— Robert Pierce. 

491. The " Three Colts " P— Edward Henry Cork. 

492. The "jSalutation " P— John Hogben. 

493. The " George and Dragon " ?— John Biirchett 

494. The " Bricklayer's Arms " ?— George Bailey. 

495. The " Green Posts " ?— William Fagg. 

496. The " Forester's Arms " ?— Edmimd Bailey. 

497. I may take it, I suppose, that all of these are 
voters ?— Yes. 

498. And each of those houses has a coterie of voters 
in the habit of frequenting these various houses P — ^Yes. 

499. I suppose they mi^ht or might not be all 
Libemis ?■— Yes, it is impossible to tell. 

500. They would have a coterie of voters, and your 
object was to get as many of the voters who visited these 
houses to vote for the Liberal candidate P — Yes. 

501. Do you know of any other money being spent in 
any way illegally P — ^Yes, I am coming to another sum in 
regard to which I desire to make a statement. I paid to 
Mr. Coleman 50Z. 

502. Apart from the 40/. P— Yes, I gave him 50Z. in 
&e same way for the expenses of the election, I handed 
it to him ux>on the Thursday or Friday. This sum was 
diffienrent, as far as I was concerned, from the sum of 40Z., 
becaose as regards the 40Z. I directed him particularly 
as to its appropriation, but with regard to the 50/. I gave 
Mr. Coleman no dedded instructions of any kind, in fact 
he was to spend it, and apply it in the best way he could 
to seoore tiie vot^ of those parties who had promised 
us. He stated to me that they could have what money 
they liked from the other side, and this money was given 
to him in order to secure those votes. 

503. To prevent their going over ? — Yes. I told him 
that he must account for it, and he is prepared to hand 
in a list of how it was appropriated. I was desirous of 
mentioning that now, because you might say afterwards 
I had not mentioned it. 

504. I quite appreciate it; that was given for the 
purpose of keepinig the voters from straying, as Coleman 
thought they might, though I do not say they might, 
unless they had some payments made to them P — ^Yes. 

5(^. Coleman will give us a list of the moneys paid p — 
Yes. 

506. Ib there any other money you at all know of 
yourself, directly or indirectly, that you know has been 
expended? — No. I have reason to believe that there 
were promises made, but no money given. 

507. By whom were these promises made P — ^By Cole- 
xxum in Uie same way, because when I made up the 



account of the expenses to send to Sir Julian Goldsmid i?. J. 

1 was told that money would be required to a consider- JSmmenon^ 

able amount to pay to certain parties who had given 

their votes to us, but none has been paid, I believe not 5 Oct )880« 
a sixpence of it. 

508. Have you a list of the persons to whom Coleman 
made those promises P — No, 

509. I suppose Coleman will have? — No doubt he 
knows it. 

510. At the time he told you that he would want 
money to pay certain persons he must have had a list of 
them, or known who they were P — No doubt he would 
know, but it was made up very quickly indeed ; Sir 
Julian GK)ldsmid returned to London upon the Wednes- 
day, and upon the Thursday morning, or upon the Friday 
morning, I had a letter from him directing me to send 
all accounts to Messrs. Lewis and Lewis who had full 
power to act for him, and not to pay any money what- 
ever. That was upon the Friday morning, and I inmie- 
diately sent round to make up my accounts, and it was 
simply by calling parties in, Coleman amongst others, 
that I could do it, and I sent up my accoimt that very 
night, which will show you how very rapidly it was got 
together, and upon information not altogether reliable. 

511. You have no hst I understand you to say of those 
persons to whom Coleman promised money P — No. 

512. You do not know who the^ were? — No, but I 
believe ho will be able to show it. I have here Sir 
Julian's letter that he wrote at the time, he went imme- 
diately to Messrs. Lewis and Lewis and instructed them 
about the petition. Here are a few letters (producing 
the, same) that I received, one from Sir Julian Goldsmia 
and the others from Messrs. Lewis and Lewis. 

513. They seem to be letters asking for details of 
certain itoms in the accounts P — Yes, and I furnished 
Messrs. Lewis and Lewis with all such details as they 
required. 

514. Did Sir Julian Goldsmid know anything of these 
payments by Coleman ? — No, not at alL 

515. I think you have told me already with regard to 
canvassers, messengers, clerks, and so forth ; you do not 
think there was any great excess at Sandwich P — No, I 
do not think we employed so many as we have done on 
former occasions ; in fact that has tdways been the great 
outlay in our borough. 

516. Has that been usual in your borough P — Yes. 
I have never known bribery or anything of that kind to 
any extent ; but the great outlay is in messengers, flags, 
and that kind of thing, that has been the great outlay in 
the borough. 

517. You are speaking now of Sandwich P— Yes. 

518. And I gather from what you say, you do consider 
there has been an outlay in canvassers, messengers, and 
so on, more than was necessary for the legitimate pur- 
poses of the election P— Yes, generally, I tMnk so. 

519. I mean the employment of persons in what we 
may call ** colourable employment," that is to say, the 
employment of more than was necessary for the legitimate 
work of the election P — Yes. 

520. How many messengers had you upon this occa- 
sion P— You have, I think, before you a list of the 
messengers which will show exactly. 

521. Do I understand from your experience of pre- 
vious elections, that the voters, or a certain class of 
voters, logk for this kind of employment, that they seek 
for it P — Yes, a certain number seek it no doubt. 

522. And I may take it from what you say, that you 
consider that the way they vote depends, m a great 
measure, whether they get such employment or not ? — 
A messenger simply receives half a guinea for the whole 
election, and a boy is only paid 5*. , so that that could 
not be a very great inducement. The way in which it 
is (lone is this, a man will come and say, ** I intend to 
*• vote, you may put my name down as a messenger, and 
*' my boy will be happy to attend and do whatever you 
" like." 

523. (Mr. Jeune,) Put it as you like, that is a bribe of 
15«. — That is the way it is done; but nothing is paid 
until after the election. 

524. (Mr. Holl) I understand jrou to say, not only at 
this election, but at previous elections, ^ere has been an 

excessive employment of that kind of labour? ^There 

may have been at some of them. 

525. Is not that done with a view of influencing the 
voters P— It must have that effect, it cannot be denied. 

526. Do you say it is not usual to pay the messengers 
until after the election P — That has been our course in 
Sandwich ; we pay nothing imtil after the electkm^ 

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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



B,J, 527. You say yon received before the election two 

• Emmergm. sums, one of 200?., and another of 210^. P— Yea. 

528. There is a letter I see from Messrs. Lewis and 

•5 Oct. 1880. Lewis to yon, in which they say, " Yon have received 

on account 210^. " P— There was a cheque from Sir Julian 

Goldsmid of 210^., but the other I received in money. 

529. You mean the 200^. P— Yes. 

530. Which was paid first P— The 200^. 

531. Did you receive that in gold P— Yes. 

532. Was that from Sir Julian GtoldsmidP— Personally P 

533. Yes?— No, it was not 

534. Prom whom did you receive it P— A gentleman of 
the name of Poord. 

535. Who is hep — ^He brought some money down to 
us, and I had 200^. of it. 

536. What is his Christian name?— I think, Mr. 
Charles Poord. 

537. What is heP— He is a friend of Sir Julian 
Goldsmid, and resides at Bochester. 

538. Do you know how much he brought down 
altogether ? — Yes, he brought down 1,500/. 

539. Do you know whether it was all in gold P— Yes, 
it was all in gold. 

540. Had you ever seen or known Mr. Poord before ? — 
No, never. 

541. Had you any anticipation of receiving the 200/. 
at the time P— I believe he said, when I applied for 
money, *' You will have money brought to you ; money 
** will be sent down, but I do not want to be bothered 
** with it myself." He disliked extremely when he was 
here being asked for cheques on account, and he said, 
'' I shall make some other arrangement, it shall be sent 
to you," and the money came down accordingly. 

542. Had you received any other intimation from Sir 
Julian Goldsmid with regard to this money coming P — 
None whatever. 

543. When did Sir Julian Goldsmid tell you this P— I 
think it must have been on the Wednesday, the very 
day it was coming. 

544. He came down upon the Monday P — ^Yes ; and I 
think it was upon the Tuesday he told us that. 

545. Did he remain here until after the election P-— 
Yes. 

546. Was it the Tuesday or Wednesday that he told 
you this P — I think it must have been the Wednesday ; 
one day must have intervened. 

647. Did you hear anything more of it before it came 
to you p— No, nothing whatever. 

548. Where did Mr. Poord come to you, at Sandwich p 
— Yes, he came to my office. 

549. Tell us what took place between you and him P — 
It was simply this ; he came to my office, and I sent for 
Mr. Edwardis, and he came round, and Mr. Edwards 
had 1,300^. of this money, and I kept 200^. 

550. Did Poord tell you what it was for P — No, not at 
all ; he simply said it was for the purposes of the elec- 
tion. It was imderstood when we received it ourselves 
that we had it for the election, and he gave it to us as 
such, and nothing more. 

551. Nothing was said as to how it was to be 
expended P— No, not at all. 

552. Nothing more than that a sum of 200/. was handed 
to you, and 1,300/. to Mr. Edwards by Mr. Poord P— No. 

653. There were no instructions as to how it was to 
be dealt with P— No, none whatever. 

554. The next day was it that you received a cheque 
for 210/. from Sir Julian Goldsmid P— Yes, the next day 
I received a cheque for 210/. 

555. Was that from Sir Julian Goldsmid p— Yes. 

556. Did he make any allusion to the 200/. you had 
already received from Poord ? — No, none whatever. I 
wrote him a note for a cheque of 210/., and I think it 
was sent to me, but I did not see him at the time, and 
he had no opportunity of asking me about it. 

557. When was the cheque given to you P — Upon the 
Priday morning, I think. 

558. That was the Priday after the Monday he came 
down P— Yes, I think so. 

559. What did you ask him for a cheque for P — On 
account of the expenses of the election. 

560. That was after you had received the 200/. P— Yes, 
I think it must have been. 

561. Did you in that note say anything about receiving 
the 200/. from Poord P — No, not a word. 



562. Was it not rather singular that in writing to him, 
asking for a cheque for 210/. for the expenses of the 
election, that you should make no allusion to h\rr\ of 
receiving the 200/. from Mr. Poord P — ^I cannot explain 
how it was. 

568. Have you any copy of your noteP — I am not 
certain of that. 

564. Win you look and see P— Yes, I will, certainly. I 
was under the impression that J had the cheque from 
Sir Julian Goldsmid to reimburse myself thalOO/. whkh 
I had paid to the returning officer, and the 200/. must) 
have come afterwards, li there is any miafa^lrA it must 
be in my saying that I had the 200Zw first. I wrote to 
&a Julian Goldooiid for a cheque to reimburse myself 
what I had paid to the returning officer. 

565. I suppose you will have some entry or memo- 
randum as to when you received the 210/. ? — Yes, I did 
not make use of it I know at once — it remained in mj 
drawer for some days. 

566. You would have some memorandum or entiy 
showing when you received the 210/. P — ^Yea, in all 
probability. 

567. Will you be so good as to refer and see the exact 
date when you received the 210/. P — Yes. 

568. And perhaps you will be good enough to ascertain 
when it was that DvL:. Edwards came and received the 
1,300/. and you received the 200/. ?— Yes, I will fumirii 
you with those dates. 

569. When did you pay the returning officer the 1001 ? 
— I think it was upon the morning of the nomination. I 
recollect writing a cheque then. 

570. WhatdatewouldthatbeP— Saturday the 15th. 

571. I thought you said you got this cheque from 
Sir Julian Goldsmid, and 200/. from Mr. Poord, upon tiie 
Wednesday or the Thursday P — I must have had it hrter 
than that. I was under the impression that the cheque 
for 200/. was to reimburse me the 100/. I had paid to the 
returning officer. 

572. (Mr, Jmme,) You see it could not have been so if 
you got it upon Wednesday or Thursday P — No, I will 
refer to the dates and no doubt I shall be able to dear it 
up. 

573. (Mr, Holl) There are two accounts before me, 
and one is the account of claims in respect of Sir Julian 
Goldsmid's election at Sandwich, and my attention is 
called to this ; how was it that when. Messrs. Lewifi 
& Lewis wrote to you stating that you had received 210/. 
on account, and say that the balance was 383/., that you 
did not write back and say that you had received 2002, 
more P — I cannot explain it. I thought they knew it. 

574. They say in their letter specifically tiiat you have 
received 210/. on account, leaving a balance of so and 
so P — Yes, it is so. 

575. The account of claims handed in at the time of 
the election petition was 593/. 17^. Sd. — they had got 
that before them, because they write and say that you 
have received 210/. on accoxmt, leaving a balauce of 383/. 
Deducting the 210/. from the 593/. 178. 8d it leaves that 
exact amount, so that would draw your attention to Ihe 
fact that they supposed that out of this 593/. 17«. 8<L 
you had only received the 210/. P — I had given no 
account whatever to Messrs. Lewis & Lewis in regard to 
the receipt of money. 

676. Then they go on to say, *' We regret to say that 
'* we cannot pass tiie account in its entirety, but beg to 
'* enclose a cheque for 350/. on account, receipt of which 
* * be good enough to acknowledge. " So you see aU they 
knew of any claim was for 593/. 17s, Sd, ; how was it you 
did not allude to the fact of your having received this 
200Z. from Mr. Poord ? — I cannot explain it I am sure. 

577. Was it because Poord's 200/. you knew had been 
spent for illegitimate and improper purposes p — No, I do 
not thiuk that was it 

578. I do not see any account of the 40/. and 50/. that 
^ou gave to Coleman in this statement of clums ?— No, 
it is in that which was handed in to the judges. 

579. Therefore that 90/. would be, in pcwnt of fact, 
money that does not appear here P — Precisely so. There 
is another account that has been furnished since which 
has been handed in to the agent for election expenses. 

580. I want to see why it was you did not make any 
mention of this 200/.; was it not because it hadheen 
spent in a manner which you knew was iUegitimate ? — 
I think veiy probably that may have actuated me, 
Messrs. Lewis & Lewis' letter did not call for a reply, and 
I might have been so engaged that I did not reply to it 

581. 90/. of this 200/. apparentiy you gave to Coleman, 
what became of the 110/. P — ^It ha&knot been spent oat 

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the moneys I reoeiyed. 
balance. 



I have now got a oonsideiable 



582. Do you mean out of the 200Z. apart from what is 
claimed here is in hand unexpended P — Yes, that money 
was intended to be expended in the payment of the 
89L 128. 6d. That 350Z. which was sent by Messrs. 
Lewis & Lewis was to go in payment of expenses, but 
when the account was made up to lay before the election 
agent he objected to these public-houses, and that money 
remains in my hands. 

583. Supposing the whole amount of 593Z. 17a. Sd. had 
been allowed, the 560/. which Messrs. Lewis k Lewis sent 
to you would only leave a balance of 337. 17«. Sd, ; you 
had 200/. fromFoord, of which 90L you gave to Coleman, 
leaving llOZ. in your hands so that you would have after 
receiving the cheques from Messrs. Lewis & Lewis, 1102. 
out of which to pay the 33Z. 17«. Sd. supposing every- 
thing in the claims account was paid P — ^Yes. 

684 Do I understand you to say that no part of that 
llOL was expended at ^ in any improper manner be- 
yond that which you have told us ? — If o. 

585. With regard to this first claim of 892. 12«. 6d, 
that has not been paid P — No, and the particulars of that 
you have in the account that has been handed in to day. 

586. It is all for refreshments P — Yes. 

587. None for the hire of rooms P — No. 

588. Were those refreshments supplied so far as yon 
know upon the election day P — I think they must liave 
been the evening before the election and upon the elec- 
tion day to the best of my belief. 

589. Do I understand you to say that you were un- 
aware of those bOIs being incurred until they were sent 
in?— Yes. 

590. By whose authority were those refreshments sup- 
pHed — Coleman's p — ^Yes, although he does not admit he 
gave any specific directions for them — he will tell you 
he did not ; but, however, if any one gave directions it 
must have been Coleman. 

59L Then the next item is '< Bell " hotel, Mrs. Hunter, 
fflxl other houses ; that has been paid P — ^Yes. 

592. That consists of the 28Z. for the seven houses, 
and 172. for the " BeU " hotel ?— Yes. 

593. Was the "BeU" hotel the central committee 
room ?-— Yes, that was at the " Bell " hoteL 

594. How long was that occupied? — 17 days. I went 
to ^le hotel and took the house for the election, telling 
the landlord we should have a room there at the rate of 
li per day, which would secure the house. 

595. And you did not use the committee room ? — ^Yes, 
but not 90 much as Mrs. Hunter's. 

596. How often was the * * Bell " hotel committee room 
used ?— It may have been used half a dozen times ; it 
was a room that we could have at any time, and run in 
and out of at any time. 

597. You engaged the room for the election at IZ. a 
day ? — ^Yes, and, in fact, the understanding was that he 
should not take the other party into his house — ^that we 
should hire the house. 

59a What is the rateable value of the " Bell " hotel P— 
I believe he pays 402. a year ; it is the best hotel in the 
place. 

599. There is the " Fleur-de-Lys "P— It is abetter hotel 
than the " Fleur-de-Lys." 

600. You spoke of two committee clerks, were they at 
Mrs. Hmiter*s, or the '* Bell "P— It would be according to 
where we met ; one or two evenings we met at the " Bell '* 
hotel, and, of course, Mr. Woodruff was always there, 
and we ^qo kept some one at the committee room at 
Mrs. Hunter's. 

601. Bid any one sit permanently at the ** Bell " com- 
mittee room, or did they only go there occasionally P — 
There was a daily messenger always left there, but I do 
not think we had our meetings there, in fact, I am sure 
we did not, we met at the other committee rooms 
generally. 

602. Did you go to the ** Bell " hotel more than two or 
thiee times ? — I should think we did more than that. 

603. I see the rateable value of the *' Bell " is 252., and 
17Z. that was paid is more than half a year's rateable 
value ?— We md not consider it overpaying, considering 
▼e were to have the house devoted to our services when- 
ever we liked to go in, and that it was not to be used by 
the other party. 

604. The next item is seven houses at 42. a piece, and 
Mrs. Hunter ; what house is that ?— Mrs. Hunter is a 
"Widow and a draper, and has a very nice room opposite 
the Guidhflll, and we generally have it as a committee 



room, in order that we may meet there instead of the 
hotel, where, of course, we should be asked for refresh- 
ments ; it is to prevent that. 

605. Is it a large room P— Yes, a very nice room. 

606. To what extent did you occupy that room P — If 
we met at the " Bell," we always met every day at Mrs. 
Hunter's ; there was someone always running out and 
in. 

607. Was it there the committee derk was P— Yes, he 
was generally there. 

608. How many days do you say it was used, and how 
long each day P — It was used all day ; there was always 
someone there running in and out. 

609. How many days did you take it before Sir Julian 
Goldsmid came down? — A few days before he came 
down. The fact is, that immediately Lord Braboume 
was elevated to the peerage, we began to make arrange- 
ments for conducting the election, and we went to the 
** Bell " hotel to secure the house, and we also told "Mxa, 
Hunter that we should want a committee room at her 
house. 

610. You told her you should want it, but when did 
Tou first use it P — It was an arrangement that she should 
nave 102. for her room. The object was to prevent 
meeting at the '* Bell " hotel ; that induced us to have her 
room. 

611. The next item is poles and banners, 262. Be. 6d. P 
— I cannot give any information as to the parties who 
gave orders for those items. They came to me after- 
wards without any knowledge of them whatever. They 
were ordered by someone, no doubt, but who I cannot 
say. 

612. You do not know at all P— No. 

613. By whom is the claim made P — It is made by a 
Mr. Bose principally, I think. 

614. Where of, is it Mr. Hose of Sandwich ?— Yes, 
222. 11«. 9d. for Mr. Rose, 19^. Mr. Guest, 12. 15«. Hunter, 
and Grey 12. ; you have all the bills, I believe. 

615. You do not know who ordered them at all P— No. 

616. Do you know that they were supplied P— I think 
they were supplied. 

617. Is T. Rose a voter ?— Yes, he is a voter. 

618. Is Hunter a voter P— That is Mrs. Hunter again, 
the lady to whom the committee room belongs. 

619. Is her husband alive P — No, she is a widow. 

620. Is Guest a voter P— Yes. 

621. And is Grey a voter P— Yes. 

622. You know nothing about it, beyond the claim 
being sent in P — No. 

623. Then fly hire and conveyance, 102. 18«. P— Yes, 
the other 52. in the first account was for simdry fiys, 
which I had paid, but it has since been taJcen off. 

624. Then four carriages upon the day of the election, 
12. 6*. each P— That is the whole day, and tie others 
were flys at various times, I suppose. That is a widow 
woman, so that there could be no object in giving money 
there. There was a small bill to Wingham of 15«., 
which has not been paid, which was to convey a freeman 
from Preston to Sandwich. That is included in the 52., 
that I just now said has been taken out. 

625. There is no detail of the 52. P—No, not at all, it 
has been left out altogether ; it was put down as some- 
thing to indemnify against the sundry flys. 

626. No account of from whom they were had, or any- 
thing about them P— No, it came out of my pocket, 
whatever it was. 

627. Did you pay anyone that 52. P— Yes, I believe I 
did ; if I was in Deal and missed the train, I had a fly. 

628. (Mr. Tit/mer.) Did you pay anybody the 52. P—I 
paid it in small sums. The 52. was put down to in- 
demnify the sundry flys. 

629. (Mr. HoU.) A fly taken for yourself, for instance ? 
— ^Yes, it was a sum put in to indemnify and to re- 
imburse me. 

630. Then posting, 42. ; that has been paid. Was that 
for posting bills at Sandwich ?— Yes. 

631. That is paid to Gray ; is that the same Gray we 
had just now P — No, quite a different man, a bill poster. 

632. Is he a voter?— Yes. 

633. He seems to have been paid Be. a day ; surely he 
would not go posting fresh bills every <iay? — ^Yes, I 
think very iStely. 

634. May 124, 13th, 14th, and 15th, 5^. each day, and 
so it goes on from the 12th to the 20th ? — No doubt he 
can account for every occasion where he went with bills. 
There was a great deal of bill posting. 



R.J. 

Emmerson. 

5 Oct. 1880. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION! 



R.J. 

Emmersan. 

5 Oct 1880. 



635. I should have thought you would have had your 
bills posted one day, and done with it ? — ^No, they were 
constantly coming out. 

636. Where there are a great many, of course I can 
understand it, but where you have such a small quantity 
as 5s. a day, I do not see why it could not be done all at 
one time ?— There was a good deal. 

637. Then 261. for out-voters, what is that ? — It was 
an estimate that was put down for freemen who were 
residing in various parts of England, some residing in 
London. Two of those were paid, and the others have 
not been paid ; but in making out the account in the 
first instance, we estimated what would be a reasonable 
charge to reimburse the men the railway expenses, 
because we could not get the railway passes. There was 
a man of the name of Nash, a freeman, who lived at 
Middlesboro', I had no communication with him before 
the election, but after the poll he came to me and said 
he wished to return home, and would I give him his 
expenses. Of course I was aware that he ought to have 
had a railway pass, and said at once it was irregular, but 
I asked >>in^ what his expenses came to, and he said 57., 
and I paid him 61. I paid Nash and Smith, but all the 
others have not been paid. Smith came from Essex. 
Nash is a highly respectable upholsterer living at Mid- 
dlesboro*, and beyond any tampering. His father was 
living at Sandwich. He always has voted in the Liberal 
interest and came up and gave his vote. 

638. Was there any promise to pay his expenses pre- 
viously ? — No, I had no communication of any kind with 
him at all. 

639. And it was paid after the election was over ? — 
Yes, the very same day. 

640. There was no previous bargain ? — No, none what- 
ever. 

641. With regard to Smith ? — He was the same. For- 
merly he was a shipwright in Sandwich, and came up 
and presented himself at the election, and after he had 
voted he had 3Z. for his expenses. 

642. Was there any communication with him pre- 
viously? — I think he was asked to come and vote, but I 
do not think there was any promise with regard to his 
expenses, or anything of the kind. Those are the only 
two who have been paid. 

643. 3Z. would be a great deal more than his fare 
from Essex ? — Yes ; I suppose it would not be more 
than2L 

644. A first-class return ticket would not be more than 
25s. ? — Upon the moment you have no time to look at 
the actual fare. 

645. Was there any promise made to him as to what 
he should have ?— No, none whatever. 

646. You are sure of that?— Yes, I can speak posi- 
tively that there was no stipulation made with either of 
those men. 

647. Not even that their expenses should be paid ? — 
No. 

648. With regard to the other men, you say they 
never have been paid ? — No, they have never been paid. 



649. 

voted. 

650. 

651 



Did they come to vote? — ^Yes, they came and 



And none of them have been paid ?— No. 
Was anything promised to either of them? — 
No, there have been no promises made to them at alL 

652. There are three Devisons who get 6^, and they 
come from Kamsgate ; why was 6Z. put down if no 
promise was made? Are you sure tiiiat nothing had 
been said to them ? — I can explain why the 6L was put 
down. 

653. It would not come to more than 5«. each to come 
from Kamsgate ? — ^I think the men had flies and brought 
their families with them, wishing to give them a little 
treat. It was an estimate, and not intended to be paid 
exactly, and it has not been paid. 

654. Do you say that no promise had been made to 
them ?— No. 

655. Then there is an item of 51 ? — ^That applies to a 
number of voters from Kamsgate. 

656. Was any promise made to them ? — ^No, I think 
not. 

657. You did not know who they were ? — I knew them, 
but I had not seen them myself. 

658. Why did you put down 5Z. If they had got a fly 
over here and back it would not come to more than IZ. ? 

There may have been 7 or 8 of them, or 10. I cannot 

say how many tiiere were, bat they have not been paid. 



and there was no promise made to them that I am 
aware of. 

659. Are you quite sure that no promise was held out 
to them that they should have these sums of 5/., 61., and 
so on ? — ^Yes. 

660. Then we have Denne, bill poster, 2Z., where did 
he come from ? — He is at Kamsgate, and when we had 
any bills they were sent over to Denne with infltructioiiB 
to post them, and to wait upon each freeman and leave a 
copy. 

661. That is not his travelling expenses to come over 
and vote ? — No, he is a kind of agent, and it is payment 
for his services. 

662. Then watchmen 16Z. ?— That is a sum which 
Mr. Coleman had for paying 16 men, for watching the 
night before the election, I think it was, which was con- 
sidered necessary at the time. Some of them are voters 
and some not. 

663. How many of them were voters ? — I am not pie- 
pared to state that, but Mr. Coleman can tell yotu 

664. Did Coleman pay them ? — Yes, he had the money 
from me, and it has gone into the agent for election 
expenses. 

665. What were they employed to watch ? I do not 
quite understand it ? — We will say that a certain ntunber 
of poor voters had promised to vote for us, and the 
other party were endeavouring to get them from us, and 
these men were appointed to watch certain houses and 
to take care that they were not extracted from us doling 
the night. Some of these watchers were voters and the 
others were not, and they each had 11, 

666. Most of them were voters I suppose ?— No donbt 
the majority of them were voters, but I think they were 
employed without reference to that at all ; they were 
selected as the best and most appropriate men for tbe 
purpose. 

667. Do you mean that they watched all night ?— Yes, 
all night. 

668. Has Coleman got their names ? — ^Yes ; I think you 
have a list of them in his voucher. 

669. Then printing, 15^. : register of electors, com- 
mittee clerk, and assistant, 10^. and 52. Who is the 
committee clerk ?— Mr. Woodruffl 

670. He could not have been engaged more than five 
or six days. Sir Julian Coldsmid does not come down 
till the 10th and the election is upon the 18th, and tiiere 
is Sunday to come out ? — The whole week before that 
he was engaged running about, and even if he had only 
been engaged three or four days he would have had his 
101. He has always had his 101. whether he has been 
engaged three or four days, or tluree weeks. 

671. Is he a voter?— Yes. 

672. Who is the assistant ? — A young man living with 
Mr. Woolnough. 

673. Is he a voter?— No. 

674. Is Woolnough a voter?— Yes. 

675. Who got the 51., Mr. Woolnough ? — No, the 
assistant clerk. 

676. What was he doing? — He was assisting in 
directing circulars, 

677. Now, in your judgment, did you really require 
two clerks ? — ^Yes, I think so. 

678. Then messengers, personation clerks, and so on, 
35^. ? — You have a list of that I think ; that was handed 
in to the agent for election expenses. There was a pe^ 
sonation clerk to each booth. 

p79. There were two booths ? — Yes. 

680. And therefore that would be two clerks?— Tes. 

681. {Mr. Turner.) That was upon the polling day?— 
Yes. 

682. (Mr. Holl) How much did they get?— U U 
each. You will find it all set out what each of them 
had. They were to get the names of the voters when 
they came away from polling and to communicate it to 
the committee room. 

683. Then Walter Simmonds, 2 guineas; James 
Gray, 6^. ; Nazer, U. Who was Nazer ?— Nazer was an 
attendant upon the committee room during the whole of 
the election, and I think he also delivered biUs. Qisj 
was an attendant messenger also. 

684. Nazer and Gray are both voters? — Yes, both 
voters. 

685. Then we have Walter Simmonds and W. 0. 
Simmonds; one gets one guinea and the other two 
guineas ; what were they ? — They were doing work in 
tiiie committee room at the time of the election. 



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686. As mefl86nger8?~Yes, and writers too, I think. 

687. What day would these people be employed as 
messengers? There are 27 of them I see ?— The greater 
portion of them no donbt were only employed npon the 
day of the election, bnt the others were in constant 
attendanoe. 

688-9. Why shonld you want 20 messengers at 10«. 6d. 
each on the ciay of the election ? — They were being sent 
in yarious directions. I cannot say that they were all 
required, and we could haye done with a less number 
no doubt 

690. Are these all voters ? — ^No, very few of them. 

691. I should like you to tick on the list making up 
the 852., with a cross, those who are voters ?— I will do 
so ; I can get a list of them from Woodruff, the com- 
mittee Qler£ 

692. Then Goleman, 402. expenses ; is that the 40Z. you 
mentioned to us? — ^Yes, and for which you have his 
receipt 

693. That is the 40/. which was partly expended in 
piqring the accounts at the public-houses and partly in 
rosettes ?— Tes. 

694. Now with regard to the item of 48L 17«. Si., 
personal expenses at me " Bell" hotel ; of what does that 
consist?— It consists of three bills, I think ; nearly the 
whole of that was incurred upon the day of the election ; 
one Irill you will find was supplying refreshments to the 
committee room belonging to Mrs. Hunter daring the 
day of ilie election ; it was necessary to supply the staff 
wim some refreshments. 

6^. But still 50Z. is a large sum ?— There are three 
bills you will find. One bill is for the entertainment 
which Sir Julian Goldsmid had upon the day of the 
election, and another bill was for a dinner we had — a 
number of us belonging to the staff in the adjoining 
io(Hn. It is not correct to put it, perhaps, as personal 
expenses, because iliey were not, perhaps, all personal 
expenses. 

696. I will ask you at the same time to tick the 
vstdMsrs who are voters. You said, I believe, that they 
were nearly all voters ?— No, they were not all voters. 

697. One biU is IIL 6«. 4tZ. ; as far as you know, was 
any of that refreshment supplied to voters P — No, not in 
the way of treating, or anytning of that sort. You will 
find the largest bill is a bill for a dinner that we had. 

698. Befreshment to staff and messengers from the 7th 
to the 18th, 32L 12«. 5rf. Is that for refreshments sup- 
idied to the committee room ? — ^Yes. 

699. Bid they begin to have refreshments supplied 
b^ore Sir Julian Ck>ldsmid came down P— I think very 
likely we did. 

700. How many were there having refreshments P — 
There might be seven or eight sometimes. 

701. It is at the rate of three guineas a day every day 
from ihe Ith to the 18th ; do you think anybody went to 
have refreshments except the staff P — No doubt the bills 
should be subject to taxation, but they are not — ^they are 
made out, said we pay theuL 

702. Were all these refreshments consumed by the 
staff?— Yes. 

703. No refreshments given to the voters?— No, 
nothing in the way of treating voters whatever. 

104. {Mr. Twmer,) Is Filmer a voter P— Yes. 

705. {Mr. HoU.) How was it that this room at the 
"Bell" was charged for 17 days? — From the time I 
went to liim te hire the house till after the election on 
the foUowing Saturday ; I suppose it was 17 days, and 
be charged 12. a day. 

706. It could not be 17 days from the time Sir Julian 
Goldunid came, and surely you would not take the 
honse 10 days before he came P — I might a week before ; 
immediately I saw that something was likely to arise, I 
went to the '' Bell " hotel and took the house. I will 
not say it was ten days before Sir Julian Gk>ldsmid came, 
because it might not be so long as that, but it was a 
week before. 

707. This is a charge for ten days before Sir Julian 



Goldsmid ever came down. Have these accounte which 
are certified in the return of Section expenses been paid 
by you P— Yes. 

708. And this 44dZ. bs. lid, I may take it, has come 
out of moneys that have passed through your hands P^— 
Yes, they have been paid oy me. 

709. Altogether you say you have received 760Z, P— 
Yes, that is right 

710. That leaves a difference Of 316L P— You have to 
add 502. which was paid to Coleman. 

711. That would leave in point of fact in your hands, 
deducting what was paid in the election returns, and the 
502. paid to Coleman, 2662. lis. Id. P— Yes. 

712. Do I understand that no part of the mone^ that 
you received, except what you paid, and which is 
vouched in the election returns, and 502. you paid to 
Coleman, has been spent by you during the election P — 
No. 

713. Nor by anybody on your behalf? — No, I am not 
aware of it ; and it has all been left in my hands. 

714. You have not paid any money yourself directly 
or through anyone else ? — No, I have stated eveiything 
that passed through me. 

715. I understand you to say that you spent nothing 
beyond the 4432. 52. lid., and the 502. you handed to 
Coleman ? — No. 

716. That is all that passed through your hands 
directly or indirectly ? — Yes. 

717. Have you got any memorandum, or diary, or cash 
book in whicn you have entered the different amounte 
you have paid? — ^No, none whatever. 

718. (Mrr Jeune.) I suppose you cashed Sir Julian 
Qoldsnud^s cheque for 2102. through the bank?— Yes, 
ike London and Counlrp^ Bank ; it did not go into my 
account because I took the money for it, and there would 
be nothing in my book to show it at all. 

719. You simply went into the Bank and cashed the 
cheque ? — Yes, and got the money for it 

720. You did not cash it, I believe, for a day or two 
after you received it ? — No, I am sure I kept it for a day 
or two. 

721. You will produce the correspondence between 
you and Sir Julian Gk>ldsnud and his agente ? — Yes, I 
will produce any letters that I have. 

722. You have copies, I suppose, of letters that you 
wrote to Messrs. Lewis and Lewis ?— Yes, I think I have 
copies of those letters. 

723. Sir Julian Goldsmid, I suppose, wrote a letter 
when he sent yon the cheque? — I think the cheque was 
handed to me by Mr. Mercer. I have no letter, I think. 

724. There are some letters of yours to Messrs. Lewis 
and Lewis ? — Yes, I think I can und some of those. 

725. There are the two canvass books that you are to 
produce ? — ^Yes, I will produce them. 

726. Are those claims that have been handed in all 
that have been made by you in connexion with the 
election ? — Yes, there are none others. I have handed in 
all the claims. I said to the judges that we did not 
admit the accounte, but these are all the claims de- 
livered in. 

727. These are all the claims that ever have been made 
npon you?— Yes, we have had no other claims. 

728. Not viva voce either? — No, I am not aware of 
any. 

729. Has anybody since the election come to you and 
claimed money, or steted that anything had been 
promised to them, which they had not had? — No, I have 
had no application made to me whatever. 

730. {Mr. HoU.) Except what you have mentioned as 
regards Coleman ? — Yes. 

131. I think he told you there were persons who 
claimed to be paid certain sums ?— Yes, but those parties 
themselves have not come to anyone to make a claim. 

732. That 'only came to you through Coleman ? — Yes. 

733. And that Coleman will give us the details of ? — 
Yes. 



B.J. 
Emmerson. 

5 Oct 1880. 



Adjourned to to-morrow at ten o'clock. 



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SANDWICH ELIiCTION C01IMIS6I0N ; 



SECOND DAY. 



S, Spofforth. 
6 Oct. 1680. 



Wednesday, 6th October 1880. 



Samuel Spopfobth re-called, and further examined. 



784. {Mr. Jmne,) Mr. Crompton Roberts thought, did 
he not, of standing at ^e general election ? — Yes. 

735. You went down to ascertain what his chance 
would be if he stood again ?— I sent my derk Simmons 
down. 

736. And you came to the conclusion that Sir Julian 
Gk)Idsmid and Mr. Brassey were too firmly established 
in the seats to be sh^ien ?— Having regard to the late- 
ness of the sending down. 

737. Mr. Crompton Roberts was given to understand, 
then, I *i>^iT^Tr^ that if there should be a vacancy by 
Mr. Knatchbidl Hugessen being made a peer, he should 
hear of it, and that he should have a chance of standing ? 
—Yes. 

738. Upon the 27th March you received a letter, I 
think, from Mr. Usher upon the subject? — Yes. 

739. Have you got the letter ?— I should say I have 
got it, it may be amongst my general letters. 

740. It was received upon the 27th March, upon the 
next day you went down with Mr. Roberts to Deal ? — 
My clerk Simmons did. 

741. And there they met Dr. Hulke, Mr. Usher, 
Mr. Spiers, Dr. Mason, Mr. Chandler, Mr. Hill, and 
Mr. Edward Cloke? — I believe so from my clerk's 
statement. 

742. At that time you tmderstood that it was not 
settled finally that Mr. Crompton Roberts was to stand ? 
— ^It was not. 

743. But upon the 4th May he received a telegram 
asking him to go down to Deal as a candidate, and he 
went down that day and issued his address ? — ^Yes. 

744. That was how his candidature came about? — 
Yes, I am not sure whether he went down upon the 4th 
or 5th, but it was on a Tuesday I know. I am pretty 
certain he went down upon the 4th. 

745. I will now pass on to the time of the petition, 
can you tell me when you were first — I will not say 
retained, — ^butwhen you first began to be engaged in 
connexion with the petition, was it directly after the 
petition was presented ? — Yes, immediately. 

746. Did you go down yourself to look into the case 
personally ?— Yes. 

747. Directly ?— No, not directly, within a week. I 
stated in my evidence, yesterday, I think, that I was 
down three or four times, but I really believe it was 
only twice. 

748. Was Mr. Simmons down here with you ? — No. 

749. I do not know whether you are able to give me 
what day these particulars were delivered by Messrs. 
Lewis and Lewis? — I cannot remember, and I doubt 
whetiier there is any record. 

750. The judges' order would show, of course, when 
they ought to have been delivered. I should rather like 
to get at the day when the particulars were given to you 
— ^perhaps this will fix it ** The Petitioners are at present 
" unable to give any further names," and so on, and 
then it is dated 23rd July 1880?— It might have been 
that day or the day after. 

751. It would be about that time ?— We obtained 10 
days further time I think, so when they were originally 
delivered I do not know. 

752. Sunmionses were taken out for further time, but 
I UikQ it the date 23rd July 1880 does show about the 
date when the particulars came into your hands ? — ^Yes. 

753. After that you were down here looking into tiie 
matter, and to the truth of these charges ? — Yes. 

754. Who was helping you at the time, was Mr. Sim- 
monds down here with you ? — ^No. 

755. You were down here by yourself ? — ^Yee, entirely 
by myself. 

756. Therefore it was you who verified and looked into 
the particulars, and proceeded to test them, and to see 
how far the charges were likely to be made out ? — Yes. 



757. This brief, I suppose, was drawn by you ?-.Yefi. 

758. I see this, " There can be no doubt that bribeiy 
" did extensively prevail, but the respondent deniw 
" that it was with his haowledge and consent," the 
conclusion you came to upon your investigation \ras, I 
suppose, that bribery did extensively prevail ?— les, I 
was under that impression. 

759. These particulars were gone through by yoa and 
these marks in red ink are your marks, I suppose?— 
Yes. 

760. They are the same marks that are referred to in 
the brief?— Yes. 

761. I see this sentence occurs, "The particulats to 
" accompany this brief have a red tick opposite the 
" register number which indicates that money is believed 
" to have been paid to the voter named. ''^ Arethooe 
('oointhig) the red ticks to which you refer?— Yes, from 
that point downwards, I t.hinlr . 

762. Then I find this sentence, "It must be admitted 
" that certain men, against whose names red maite 
" appear in the particmars were paid sums of money by 
" John James Ralph, number 221 in the particulare in 
" the presence of Elliott." I do not quite know which 
red marks those would be ?— I do not think I can give 
the special names unless the names are given in the 
brief. 

763. I want to know what red marks those are. Ifind 
this, "It must be admitted that certain men ag^nst 
" whose names red marks appear in the particulars were 
" paid sums of money by John James Ralph in the 
" presence of Elliot, " what red marks are those. I have 
called your attention to ticks, but what red marks are 
those ?— I have no doubt the red marks mean the ticks. 

764. Wafl it your impression that all the personB 
whose names were ticked were paid by John James 
Ralph?— No, only certain persons whose names I have 
there in the brief. I do not see anything in the brief 
which enables me to earmark the particular persons who 
received money from Ralph, nor have I any recollection 
to enable me to earmark them in any way, it is a general 



765. It certainly would appear from that sentence as 
if there were some red marks in some particulars which 
specially indicated the men that Ralph had bribed?— 
No. 

766. Then there is this sentence, "Where no money 
" was paid the word 'No' is written." Those are, I 
suppose, these "Noes" that I find here time after time? 
— Yes. 

767. Then, a little later in the partioolais, besides the 
word " No " other words are written, for instance there 
is "No" then the word "Liberal," what does that 
mean ?— I suppose that it means that he was a LibeiaL 

768. "No" means that he was not bribed, and 
" Liberal " means that he was a Liberal and not likely 
to be bribed?— Yes. 

769. Then I find " No, had money for canvassing," 
that means, I suppose, tha| he was not bribed, but that 
he had money for canvassing P — ^Yes. 

770. Then a little later on I find " No, colourable," 
what does that mean? — ^It means that he had otiier 
employment 

771. That he had employment which in your opinion 
was colourable employment ? — Yes. 

772. Then later on there is the word "No, com- 
mittee," what does that mean P — Perhaps he was on the 
committee. I think that was the reason of it. 

773. Then I find this sentence, ''All the persons 
" charged as bribers it is believed were entinsted with 
money, but only in three cases " (I will not mention the 
names but the names are given) "are the names of the 
" bribers and bribees coupled in the particulars. " I do 
not quite understand that sentence, does not it mean this, 
that only in those three cases are the paztioalais cooect 



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ia changing the light bribee and the right briber P^No, 
it does not, I am certain of thai 

774. (Mr, Bolt) It cannot mean that there are only 
three cases where the names are conpled at aU, because 
there are many cases where they are coupled P — ^It does 
not mesm correctly coupled I am certain. 

775. (Mr. Jewne.) Then I see it goes on " These three 
*• men are considered by the Conservatives to be very 
** doubtful, and may poesibljr have split" I suppose, 
therefore, what was passing m your mind at the time 
was that those three persons had in fact bribed some- 
body or another ? — Yes. 

776. Or rather I should have said been bribed, because 
th^ three persons named are put down in the particu- 

. hxR as having received bribes ? — ^Tes, that is so. 

777. Then comes this " All the men alleged to have 
" given bribee are staunch, and all their men are the 
" same," tiiat means, I presume, all the men whom they 
had in fact bribed P— Yes. 

778. Then there is this, " Ralph says that one or two 
" of his men are rather afraid of Elliot's turning up, 
** because it was understood he was gone to America." 
Elliot has in fact gone to America has he not P — I do not 
know. 

779. At the time you wrote that, was it your belief 
upon tiie subject ?— Yes. 

780. Then you say, "All the men alleged to have 
« given bribes are staunch, and all their men are the 
" same " ; I suppose you had ascertained at that time 
upon your inquiries, tlmt there was ground for supposing 
that those men had given bribee P — ^Yes. 

781. Are these red marks in the particulars the result 
of your personal inquiries upon the spot ? — The obser- 
vations in the margin in contra-distinction to the red 
marks, are Uie result of my personal observationa 

782. The red observations in the margin are your 
observations and the result of your personal inquiiies, 
hat the red ticks are the result of whose observations P — 
They are £rom information I received. 

783. Now I come to those notes in the margin with 
regard to the particulars of bribery, and I see opposite 
one man here is put ** Never did anything," that means, 
I suppose, that you ascertained upon inquiry that in 
point of fact he had not bribed P — Yes, certainly. 

784. Then I see opposite another name "Never 
bdbed " ? — ^Yes, I give the same answer. 

785. Then in another case I see put down "At sea," 
^mt means that he could not bribe and had not bribed 
in fact because he was at sea. Then with regard to 
another I see put "Dead," then another "Liberal," and 
another " Dead some months before the election." All 
these things were things that you ascertained yourself 
upon your inquiries down here, and inserted as the 
i^nlt of those inquiries p — Yes, just so. 

786 In the same way those notes that I read, such as 
"No," "Liberal," and other things of that kind, are 
matterB that you had ascertained upon your inquiries 
down here ? — Not down here. 

787. For instance a man is charged with having been 
bribed, and you have written opposite his name "No," 
how did you ascertain as a fact that the man had not been 
bribed?— I was told by a third party that he had not 
been. 

788. 1 suppose with regard to the note "No, had 
" money for canvassing," "No, colourable employ- 
ment," I may take it that the third party told you m 
each case that it was a mistake to suppose that the person 
had been so employed, in other words, from the infor- 
mation of tiie third party you made the notes in red iik 
'^inch appear upon the particulars P — Yes. 

789. I suppose it was from the information of that 
same third party that you made the ticks which also 
appear in the particulars P — ^Yes, 

790. Who was the third party P — I would rather not 
give his name. 

, 791. I am afraid we must have his name P — WUl you 
allow me to write it down P 

792. Yes, certainly. (The witness writes the name upon 
o, piece of paper which is handed to the CoTmnis^^ioner.) 
You went through, with this third person, these par- 
iiciilars, and he gave you the information which prac- 
tically we find upon these particulars ? — Yes. 

793. He told you opposite to whose naijies to put ticks, 
and he told you opposite to whose names to write, 
•* No," " Dead," and " Liberal," and aU the rest of it ? 
—Tee, quite so. 



794. Did you yourself verify any of that information, S. Spofforih. 
did you see any of these people ? — No, I did not. ' 

795. In no case did you see any of the alleged bribers, ^ ^ct- 18®^*- 

or alleged bribees personally, and find out whether the 

story was (rue? — I think I saw some of the alleged 

bribers, but I cannot say which. 

796. Could you by looking at the particulars tell me ? 
I do not think I comd with the exception of Balph. 

797. You saw Balph personally ? — Yes. 

798. Balph told you what sum of money he had had P 
— ^No, he did not tell me what sum of money he had had, 
and I never asked. 

799. Of course he told you he had had money ? — He 
did not tell me in words, but he did inferentially. I 
never aid^ed him. 

800. Did he tell you what persons he had given money 
to ? — ^No, he did not. 

801. He is charged with having bribed certain persons 
here, I supposed you asked him whether in fact it was 
true, and whether a case could be made out in regsird. to 
ihose persons?— I cannot say that I adted V^iTn in 
reference to any particular names, but names were given 
in my presence, which led me to suppose tiiat the charge 
might be sustained, 

802. I suppose Ihose names, or some of them, at any 
rate, were tiie names of persons charged in these 
particulars P — Yes, some of them. 

803. Did Balph tell you in detaU which of the charges 
could be proved, and which of the charge could not P — 
No, I think not I may say he did not. 

804. Did he tell you that any of the charges could not 
be proved P — ^I do not remember that he did. 

805. He knew, of course, what persons he was accused 
of having bribed ? — He did, you may assume. 

806. And he did not teU you that in any of those cases 
the charge was a groundless one, and could be dis- 
proved P — I could not remember that he did. 

807. With regard to the public-houses that appear in 
the particulars as having been engaged, I see you have 
a note opposite them tihat Mr. Olds engaged all the 
houses, and you state the way in which he did so. I 
suppose you had communication with Mr. Olds upon 
the subject, and he gave you the information himself P— ; 
No, the communication was from the same source. 

808. Yon mean the third person that you have men- 
tioned P — Yes. 

809. He told you what Mr. Olds had in fact done, and 
you wrote it down here P — Yes. 

810. Was Balph the only person charged with having 
bribed who you saw personally P-— Yes, so far as I 
remember. 

811. Perhaps if you take the particulars you can 
think of some more {handing the particulars to the 
witness) P — Yes, I had interviews witii Mr. Spears. 

812. (Mr, Roll. ) Is that William Frost Spears P— Yes. 
I forget whether I saw William Spears. I saw John 
Lemon Adams, and Valentine Myhill. I also saw 
George Phillpot, Balph, Elliott, John Lemon Adams, 
and Jack Adams. I am not quite sure of Jack Adams, 
but as there is a memorandum opposite his name I may 
have seen him, but I do not call him to mind. Then 
with regard to Thomas Phillips there is a memorandum 
opposite the name, but I do not remember him. I saw 
George Hooper, and William Lock. Then there is 
Betts ; I do not remember liim^ and I think the in- 
formation was given to me. I do not think I saw hint 

813. (Mr. Jeune,) I have the original particulars here, 
and I cannot from them make out the meaning of the 
sentence I read to you just now, to this effeict, "All 
" the persons charged as bribers it is believed were 
** entrusted with money, but only in three cases are the 
" names of the bribers and bribees coupled in the 
** particulars '?— I cannot give any further answer. I 
do not know. 

814. It follows firom that that all the bribers were 
entrusted [with money, but only in three cases are the 
names of the bribers and the bribees coupled. One would 
understand from it that all had money, but only in three 
cases were the bribers and bribees rightiy charged P — 
No doubt that is the fair inference, but I cannot call to 
mind whether or not that was the meaning of it. 

815. I was asking you about the persons bribed that 
you saw. Of course you saw them to ascertain whether 
or no the charges in the particulars were likely to be 
made out; that was your object in seeing them, of 
course P — Yes. 

816. May I take it that all they gave you to under- 

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SANDWICH ELECTION COMlftSSION : 



5* Spofforii. stand was that what was shown by the red marks in the 

, particulars was substantiallj true ; that is to say, where 

6 Oct. 1880* there was a tick there had been an act of bribery P — No, 

, not so far as that ; I only learned from them that money 

had been entrusted to them. 

817. They gave you in every case to understand that 
they had had money entrusted to them P — I think I may 
say almost in every case where the opposite does not 
appear in the note. 

818. I presume where you thought you had gone far 
enough, and they told you they had had money entrusted 
to them, you understood perfectly that the money had 
been spent in an illegitimate way P— That was the natural 
understanding. 

819. Did they tell you who had entrusted them with 
that money P — No. 

820. Did you ask them P — ^No, I did not ask them. 

821. We have dealt with the persons bribing, now we 
will take the persons bribed, did you see any of them P 
— No. 

822. Not a single one P— Not in any individual instance, 
and I never asked to see them. 

828. You never personally saw them P — No, I never 
personally saw them, nor inquired of them. 

824. And you did not send any one to enquire of 
them P— No. 

825. You did not get any information from them, 
directly or indirectly P—No, I did not 

826. I see you say, " Balph says that one or two of 
** his men are rather afraid of Elliott turning up." 
That is what he told you, I suppose P— Yes. 

827. Did he tell you which men were afraid of 
Elliott turning up P — No. 

828. That meant, I suppose, that Elliott had been 
concemed in payments made to these men^ and they 
were afraid of his turning up and splitting P — Yes, 
exactly. 

829. You never saw Elliott P— Yes, I took a long 
proof down from him. 

8d0. You understood from Elliott that he had been 
engaged in bribing certain persons P — I understood it 
from him, but I did not ask nim the question, because 
I was upon another matter with another object, and then 
he disappeared. 

831. When Balph told you that some of his men were 
afraid cd Elliott turning up, what he meant to convey 
was that they were afnad Elliott would turn up, and 
would give some information or another which would 
compromise them P — ^Yes, that he would split. 

832. You told me yesterday that you found that 
Elliott had been up to London, and was supposed to have 
given information to Mi, George Lewis P~-I understood 
it from himself. 

833. It was through Elliott, as jon understand it, 
that Mr. George Lewis and the petitioner got on the 
trade of the bribery, and obtained their first informa- 
tion P — That was only a matter of supposition. I have 
no means of forming any opinion upon it beyond mere 
rumour. 

834. It was merely from what you were told, and the 
other evidence which you obtained P— Yes. 

836. I see opposite one name here. No. 122, John 
Chapman Grant, there is written, '* If at all by a man 
« named License, not charged as a briber. " From whom 
did you obtain that information P— I cannot say. 

836. Was it from the third person you have named P 
—No. 

837. Did you see Mr. John Chapman Grant ?— No. 

838. Can you tell me where you found out that, if at 
all, he had been bribed by a man named Lysons? 
—No. 

839. Do you know who License was? — ^No. 

840. You did not see License himself ?— No. 

841 And you cannot tell me from what information 
you wrote that ? — No, it was from inf ormatioA obtained 
down here. 

842. Then, opposite the name of Thomas Cribben, 
junior, boatman, there is written, "Beceived 32. to vote 
** for Sir Julian. It was put into his wife's lap, and she 
•* gave it to him, and she can prove it." Did you see 
her?— No. 

843. Can you tell me from where you obtained that 
information ? — No, I cannot ; I do not remember seeing 
Cribben. 

844. Have you any memorandum of seeing Cribben? 
<^No. I may have seen himi but I do not remember it, 



because I saw a good many people mostly charged at 
bribers, and a very few, if any, charged as bribees. 

845. You must have received this information from 
some one, because it is very specific, " Eeceived 31. to 
" vote for Sir Julian. It was put into his wife's kp 
** and she gave it to him, and she can prove it" T& 
must have been given to you by somebody?— I uoi^ 
have put it down, because it is in red ink, but from 
whom I received the information I cannot say. 

846. Then I see opposite to one name here, " Dead 
** some months before the election, 26th September 
* * 1879. Certificate produced and proved by Mr. Olda." 
That is opposite the name of Henry Nicholas, boatman, 
and it suggests to me to ask you this, did you a^ 
Mr. Olds as to the truth of these cha]^g;es ?--]l)o vqu 
mean as regards that particular person ? 

847. Yes? — Mr. Olds brought me the certificate of 
death or produced it. 

848. Did he give you any other information with 
regard to any other of these persons besides prodndng 
the certificate ?— I do not remember that he did. I was 
often in communication with him, and I saw him aerenl 
times during the visits I paid here before titie hearing of 
the petition. 

849. We have him giving you information as regaids 
one person out of a very large list, did he not give jon 
any information with regard to any other persons nho 
were alleged to have been bribed ?— No. 

850. He must have gone through this list, and picked 
out this one whose death he could prove, did yon not 
ask him about any other cases of bribery?—! did not 
particularly ask him, but I am bound to say I fonned an 
mipression from what passed as to tiie Ibruth of the 
charges in regard to a considerable portion of them. I 
cannot go further than that ; but so far I must go. 

851. Then I see opposite the name of Yalentine 
Myhill this written, •* He never touched one of these 
'' men given below.'* I suppose that was informatkm 
which you derived from Yalentine Myhill himself?— 
Yes. 

852. It means that he never bribed, I suppose?— 
Yes. 

853. Did he tell you who he had given monejto? 
— ^No, 

854. You understood he had given monev to other 
people, though not to the men mentioned below?— Yes, 
mferentially. 

855. Then against Walter Dixon Bushell there is 
written, ** No, it was William, cf Belmont Place." That 
means to say that it was William Bushell, of Behnont, 
who had bribed these persons, and not Walter Dixon 
Bushell ? — ^Yes, that is the inference. 

856. Can you say where you derived that information? 
— No, I cannot 

857. Did you see William Bushell ? — ^I have no re- 
membrance of it. 

858. Do you know where you got that informatioQ 
from?— No. 

859. Was it from the third person you meniioned? 
—No. 

860. It must have been from some one who knew a 
good deal about it, because the note is in effect, ''It was 
" not that Bushell, the real Bushell was William 
" Bushell, of Belmont Place"?— I do not remember 
seeing BusheU. 

861. From whom do you think you got the informa- 
tion that it was not Walter Dixon Bushell who had been 
distributing money but William Bushell ? — ^I cannot say ; 
I do not think it was the third person. 

862. Who could it have been if it was not the person 
himself, and was not the third person. Was it fdx. Olds, 
do you think P — I do not remember that it was Mr. Olds, 
it might have been. 

863. Cannot vou recollect who it was pointed out to 
you that error tnat they had made a mistake in charging 
the wrong Bushell ; that although a Bushell ought to 
have been charged, it was the wrong one they had got 
hold of ? — ^No, I cannot remember. 

864. How did yon make it up. Of course all this was 
written down at once. I want to know from what notes 
or memoranda did you make it out. Did you take down 
notes or memorandia vrhen you saw these various per- 
sons ? — I made no notes ; I went through the particulars 
generally. 

865. I mean, in these particulars we find in red ink 
the results of a good deal of inquiry and a good deal of 
information. Did you carry all that inquiry and infor- 



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mation in jonr head, or did yon make notes when ^on 
flawthevarions peraons, and then compile the red ink 
observations from the notes ? — No, the partionlars were 
gone through. 

866. Gone through with these various persons?— No, 
with the third person. 

867. Then that looks to me as if it was that person 
you got it from ?— I cannot say, it may have been, I do 
not remember. 

868. Do you remember whether you wrote these red 
notes and made the ticks at once ; that is to say, when 
you went through them with that person, did you write 
them down then and there, or did you afterwards com- 
pOe the red observations and the red ticks from other 
souroeB ?— I ticked it in the particulars. 

869. You went through with him, and ticked it then 
and there ?— Yes. 

870. And did you make most of those notes when you 
were going through it with him ? — Not the margmal 
notes, but I may have written some of the notes not 
purely marginal. 

871. You mean by the marginal notes those on the 
left hand side and the other ones opposite the names ?— 
Yes. 

872. And most of those notes, written not marginal 
notes but opposite the names, were written, were 3iey, 
wlwn you were going through the particulars with this 
third person ?— Yes, I think so. 

873. Is it not most probable that it was from informa- 
tion from that third person that you wrote down these 
notes opposite which there was the person whose name 
ought to have been inserted. Does not that strike you 
as most probable ?— From my answer it does. 

874. Prom your recollection do not you think it was 
tiiat person who gave you that information ; who else 
eonld have given it you ? — I cannot say who else could 
have given it me. 

875. I see here the words "Clear of all this list;" 
what does that mean ; opposite a good many names here 
there is written the words— ** Clear of this list"?— It 
meaoty so far as I recollect, that parties who were 
eharged here as bribers had not bribed any one of the 
persons whom they were charged with bribing. The 
tist referred to those numbers which go from 192 to 220. 
I hare a remembrance of that 

876. They had not got the right bribers put against 
the light people ? — Yes ; that is the meaning of it. 

8T7. I see all these names are afterwards ticked, so 
thai it meant they had been bribed, but they had not 
been bribed by the persons whose names are put down 
as the bribers ; that would be it P— I do not say they had 
been bribed, but ihej voted for the respondent, and 
probably had been bribed. I did not ask the question, 
had they been bribed. 

878. Now opposite the name Joseph Henry Bedsull, I 
see written the words '* Never did anything." Was 
Joe^h Henry Redsull, a man you saw yourself ?— I 
asaume, from my having made a memorandum opposite 
hhn, he v^as. 

879. You saw him and he denied it ? — ^I do not remem- 
ber h^m ; but I assume that as I made a memorandum 
opposite his name I did see him. I wish the Commis- 
noners to understand this, because I forget some things, 
particularly in witnesses ; they were only in with 
me two or three minutes. I asked them a question and 
they retired, so that I do not remember them indi- 
vidually ; they are not impressed upon my memory by 
name. 

880. That is very natural ; we cannot expect you to 
remember every single thing everybody told you, that 
would be absurd ? — Or even the men themselves. 

881. Of course not. There is a man here, Mr. John 
Ijemon Adams, and opposite to that I see you have 
written, '* He himself took money from the Blues ;" and 
opposite Jack Adams, the next name, I see the words 
'* the same," with this addition on the other side, " Will 
*' give their names if desired." You saw them, I sup- 
pose ?— I think I remember the former Adams, but I do 
not remember the other one. 

882. But from the fact of the note being there you 
rather come to the conclusion that you did see them F — 
Yes. 

883. And if you saw them, I presiime they gave you 
that information?— Certainly. 

884. Now opposite this name, for example, William 
D. Lane, I see the word **Elliot"P— That means I think 
lie is one of the men whom "Elliot " dealt with. 

885. And I see you put it in your brief to show how 



recklessly the case is got up. There are two men charged 
with bribery. No. 221, John Lemon Adams and Jack 
Adwns, father and son, they will both swear that neither 
of ttiem were ever paid a penny to vote, and they can both 
fnrtoer swear, if required, that they received money to vote 
for the petitioner, and will give the name of the person 
who paid them?— Well, I really did not remember that. 

886. But that was probably the result, as far as you 
can recollect, of your mterviews with these two persons ? 
—Undoubtedly, as I stated before. 

887. Now, here is a charge with regard to William 
Bwn^ell Mackie, he is put down as having bribed George 
Williams, with a payment of SI, part payment of 61 for 
his vote. I see opposite that is the word "Mackie" 
TOtten, what does that mean P— That I cannot explain. 
Mackie is the man charged, do you see. 

888. Does that mean that Mackie had in fact bribed 
him ?— I am not prepared to say that, 

889. Now take another one where the name is different • 
tiiere is Tliomas James Usher, who is charged with 
havmg bribed Stephen Huxstep, and opposite to that 
IS written the word ** Wray ;" what does that mean ?— I 
cannot say. I do not remember. 

890. Does it mean it was at Wray's house, or that 
Wray was the person who had really bribed him ?— Wray 
IS the man charged with bribery, I suppose, but I reallv 
cannot say. "^ 

891. There is no Wray on the register that I can find; 
it IS spelt W-r-a-y, and I cannot find any Wray on the 
register. Do you know who Wray was ?— I do not. 

892. Now take the next one. Wise ; in the same way, 
opposite Thomas James Usher, there is the word * *Wise ;" 
it is put opposite ** These men work for the corporation, 
" Mr. Usher being the borough surveyor ; they have 
*• charged him, he denies the charge most positively •" 
do not those words mean that, though Usher had not 
given the money to those persons, Wray and Wise had ? 
—I do not remember that it does mean that It is a 
reasonable inference, I admit. 

893. Beading that sentence in the same way as the 
other words, is it not the case that those words are put 
in as a correction to show what the real fact about the 
particular charge was. Is not that so ; that is a reason- 
able inference to draw from those words, is it notp— I 
admit it is. 

894. I see in these particulars there are some charges 
made of this description ; for instance, " Giving an order 

* for a number of fireworks, in value about 40i., which 
•• order was to induce them to vote for the respondent ;" 
that is one of the charges made, and the person said to 
have been bribed is Charles William Frost, and the per- 
son bribing is Hughes, and against that you have written, 
** Nethersole gave this order; they were never used or 
•* paid for." Was that information derived from 
Mr. Nethersole P— I will not say I derived it from 
Mr. Nethersole, but I derived it probably from some 
other person who informed me of it 

895. With regard to the next one, I see Edwin Hughes 
is said to have given an order for goods to Mr. Samuel 
Loyns, and below that is written, **, Order given by 
" Marley, to whom Usher gave cheque for 39Z. 14b, 2d." 
Who is Mariey ?— I forgot who Marley is, unless he is a 
tradesman here. 

896-7. You see what it is, " Order given by Marley to 
" whom Usher gave cheque for 39Z. 14«. 2d. " Do you 
recollect who gave you that information P— Most proba. 
bly Usher. I wiU not swear, but most probably it was 
Usher. I was in constant communication with tfsher on 
this matter. 

898. I daresay Mr. Usher can tell us about that 
Then there is lOL for the Wesleyan Chapel, which I '^ 
think does not matter. Then there is this — Edwin 
Hughes is charged with ha^dng given a large order, 
about 500Z. for flags, bunting &c. to William Pittock. 
Opposite that I see is written, *' Hughes gave this order. " 
Then further is written " Bosettes and calico and ribbons 

" from Usher, 39Z. 10«. ed. never entered in his book." 
Do you remember what that means ?— I think the infor- 
mation from which I made that entry is 

899. From Usher probably P— From Usher probably. 

900. In the same way I see there is another entry, 
"Usher gave cheque for colours and calico for flags) 
** 13L 178. 9d." 1 suppose that probably would be in- 
formation derived from Usher P— Yes. 

901. In the same way with regard to this one " Usher 
" gave this order for flags and colours together, 
" 6Z. 158. ; flags 51. 16«., and rosettes IV* That again 
would be information from, Usher I suppose P — Very 
probably. 



*S. Spcfforth. 
6 Oct 1880. 



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SANDWICH BLEGTION ^1£MISSI0N: 



S, Spefforth^ 
6 Oct. 1880. 



902. Then I see there is a ohai^e made against Edmn 
Hughes, William Frost Spears and George Edward 
Porter, of having given colourable employment to 
Thomas Baker in putting up poles. Opposite that you 
have written "Spears, W. F., gave this,. and had the 
*• money from Hughes." I presume you mean it was 
Spears who gave that order, and that he received the 
money to pay for it from Hughes ? — ^Yes, 

903. That I suppose was information you obtained P — 
Yes, I think from Spears. 

904. I see you have here *' W. F. Spears paid for all," 
that is with reference to the poles. I suppose W. F. 
Spears told you he had paid for all those F — I think so. 

905. 'V^th regard to the charge made of taking the 
pier there is this, ** Hughes says he paid 15Z. for the pier 
'* for the sake of popularity, and chaiged it as personal 
** expenses." That I suppose was information which 
Mr. Hughes gave yon ?— He did. 

906. Then "Wise." There is a person called James 
Wise, ia there not P — ^Yes. 

907. And he is a voter, I see, residing at Victoria Villa, 
Deal. You saw James Wise, did you not P — I saw him 
with Elliott 

908. Is it possible he may have given you the infor- 
mation which led you to put down the word ** Wise " in 
that place I called your attention to just now P — Possibly, 
but I think not. I do not think from what I remember 
of my interview with Wise that I did put that down from 
that — ^in fact, I am sure I did not. 

909. Is there a draft proof of Dr. Hulke's among these 
papers P-rl don't remember a draft proof. I think there 
IS some evidence given by him in the bHef. 

910 There is a regular drawn proof in the brief P — ^If I 
remember rightly, I think it was sent up to London. 
There it is {showing thsjBanie to the Commtssioiieri). 

911. What paper is that (handing a paper to ihe wit- 
ness). Is that in your handwriting P — Yes. 

912. That looks to me like a rough draft of the various 
persons, or some of them, charged with bribery or being 
bribed, and notes of yours opposite their names. Is that 

BoP— Itis. 

913. I see it begins, •* lost of all^^ bribees," is the 
worc^ I tiiink P— " Bribers," I think. 

914. I think it must be " bribees," for I observe the 
third is ** he never had a penny " P— You can check that 
by reference to the particulars. 

915. That is true. "He never had a penny "must 
mean " He never had a penny to distribute " P — ^Yes. 

916. Now let us work it out. I see here "Spenoe's 
men are all straight ;" and then follow three names. 
Does that mean tha4i those three names were the 
names of that person's men p — It is " Smith, L. Warden, 
" Kent" I know there is an hotel* here called the 
"Lord Warden." I do not know whether the man's 
name is Smith. 

917. What does that mean — "says his men are all 
" straight. Smith, L. Warden, Kent." Does that mean 
that Smith, and somebody connected with the "Lord 
" Warden " and Kent were his men P — ^I cannot say. 

918. It looks like it, does it not P — I cannot say really. 
I cannot remember what it means. 

919. Does it mean that these were the persons whom 
this individual employed to distribute money p — ^lean- 
not answer that question. ^ 

920. " Says his men are all straight," what does that 
signify now to your mind P — It meant this, I suppose, 
t£kt I had asked him if he had done anything, and he 
might have said he had; and I should say, "Have 
" you any fear of what you have done," and he might 
have said, "No." 

921. Do you think it meant they were the men he em*- 
ployed to distribute the money, or the men he had given 
the money toP — Probably the men he had given the 
money to. 

922. It;is "Smith, L. Warden, Kent," and then it 
goes on, ' ' not one of his bribees charged " P — ^That means, 
I suppose, that no person whom he had bribed had been 
charged. That is me meaning of it, I have no doubt I 
have no hesitation in saying that That must have been 
my impression at the time I wrote it down. 

223, I think that must be so P — I think soothe other 
I cannot explain. 

224. Then I see there is " W. B. MacMe," and opposite 
his name is written " see below," and then there is " all 
" in the Downs " in inverted commas. What does tibat 
mean P — ^He was at sea. 



925. At sea, [and wished to [remain there P— I do not 
know— possibly. 

926. I think my conjecture is not far wrong P — ^Well, 
they are very fond of tiie sea here,|a8 of flags, imd as, the . 
town derk of Sandwich told you yesterday, they cannot 
marry or be buried without a flag. 

927. I think you are right I see just below, opposite 
the name of this person, * * Not served, now in the Downs ; 
" wife to write^ and tell him to stay away " ? — I do not 
remember makm^ that note. As it is in my handwriting, 
I have no doubt it was the fact at the time. 

928. I may take it, of course, that you had reason to 
suppose that W. £. Mackie's evidence, if given, would 
not be favourable to your side P — Certainly. 

929. Then what is that opposite Thomas Phillips' 
name "the wrong"— what P—Eeally I cannot read it 
myself. 

930. I think most probaby it is "the wrong BushfiU"? 
Yes, it is. 

931. That must be a r^erenoe to what we have after- 
wards in the particulars that it is a different Boshell P — 
Yes, that may be so. 

932. That of course is the same thing I was ref enang 
to just now. Then I see a littie later, ' ' George Hooper, 
Sandwich, this mim is safe ; " and opposite " Willittn 
Lock," opposite which name are those words written ?— 
I really cannot say. It seems to me to be opposite 
William Lock. I have no recollection of Lock. 

933. It looks from that as if you had seen him your- 
self P — ^Not necessarily. 

934. I think it only fair to say that that note, " This 
man is safe," must really mean that no charge can be 
made against him, for in your other note I seeyou say, 
" He had nothing to do with the election." Therefore 
it does not mean that he could be relied upon not to tell, 
but that he had nothing to do with the election. At any 
rate that is what was in your mind at the time P — Yea, 
no doubt 

935. That is all I need ask you about that paper. 
Now, among the papers there is that {handing same to 
{he witness), I shall be glad if you will tell me what 
that paper is P — I believe it is an account rendered by 
the housekeeper to Mr. Grompton Roberts of tbie 
expenditure. 

936. An account rendered by his housekeeper to Ht. 
Grompton Roberts P— Yes. 

937. You see it begins with the date of the 4th of 
May; that was the very day he came downP — Yes. 
I have no doubt it is an account rendered by his house- 
keeper to him of his expenditure. 

938. It can hardly be that, I think. Such a thing, for 
example, as " Velocipede club " would hardly be paid by 
his housekeeper. In whose handwriting is it, do you 
think P— I think it is Mrs. Steadman's Imndwriting, the 
housekeeper. 

939. There are some things here which might per- 
fectly well have been paid by the housekeeper : " Coach- 
man going to Deal, keep of six horses, stand for three 
carriages." Those are expenses that appear to be 
incurred here that might be paid for in that way. You 
think this is Mrs. Steadman's handwriting, do you ? — 
I think so. I cannot make out how it came into my 
possession. 

940. This is rather an extraordinary thing to find in 
Mrs. Steadman's handwriting: "Mr. C. R, 5^.; Mr. 
C. R, 20^." Then there are some other figures and 
60^., and then carried out at 104Z. Now, can yon give 
any explanation of that P— I know Mrs. Steadman is a 
person in a highly responsible position, that she does 
the housekeeping, and that Mr. Grompton Boberts 
trusts her with le^e sums of money, and to save him- 
self the trouble of having to draw a cheque on his 
bankers he would go to Mrs. Steadman and say, "Give 
me50i." I know that 

941. That may be it P — ^I have no hesitation in saying 
that that is Mrs. Steadman's account, and I cannot teO 
how I got it. 

942. Then this entry seems to show that Mrs. Stead- 
man gave Mr. Grompton Boberts 104Z., because there is 
"Mr. G. B., 5^., Mr. G. B., 20^.," and 9^., 101, mdeOL 
carried out at 104^. ; it would come to that P — I never 
looked at the items. 

943. What conveys itself to your mind is that Mrs. 
Steadman gave those sums to Mr. Grompton Boberts P— 
That he, coming down here, had plenty to do ; for, as he 
told me, when he came back from Desd, his hand and 
wrist were so swollen he was obliged to bathe it with 
water for a fortnight, and he had so much to do, what 



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with interriewing Totors and shaking handa with them, 
their relatives and thdr children, that he was only too 
glad to adopt this oonrse. This is only assumption, mind ; 
^m I say assnmptiQn, it is on a good basis. I believe 
he would be only too glad to put into Mrs. Steadmim's 
hands the complete management and control of the 
hoose, of course including horses and carriages, and so 
oo, azid no doubt iJiat accounts for these sums of money. 
There is no difikmlty, if your honours wish it, in getting 
Mrs. Steadman here. Mrs. Steadman is in Belgrave 
Square now. If there is any difficulty about it, no 
doubt she could come down if you summon her, and 
give any explanation necessary. 

944. It is a considerable sum, 514^. in a week P— Well, 
I daresay it would be that. 

945. It is 514:1, in these particular items. The whole 
paper goes to a considerably larger sum even than that ? 
—Will you sJlow me to see the other items ? 

946. Certainly. — (After looking at the jyaper.) I have 
DO doubt it is Mrs. Steadman's account. 

947. 180^. of it is money that seems to have been paid 
in carfi to Mr. Orompton Roberts himself ? — Probably, 
That is the only explanation I can give of it. 

948. There are a certain number of payments too of 
tins nature, ''Qave money to poor man,'^ 5^., 28, 6cf., 
aod BO on. Do you know whether Mrs. Steadman had 
authority to give money down here to poor men ? — I do 
not Uke of course to bind Mrs. Steadman. Of course 
I cannot give evidence for her ; but I know this, that 
Mrs. Steadman is in such a position in my client's 
household that anytibing ^e did would be authorised 
by ^^iTn. 

949. There is another handwriting here. Can you 
tell me whose handwriting that is ; " Cash 800^. , fetched 
by Mr. Simmonds " P — That is Mr. Crompton Robert's 
handwriting. 

950. Then there is 150^ here, (pointing in the account) 
Is that Mr. Chrompton Robert's handwriting P — No, that 
is not Mr. Crompton Robert's handwriting. 

951. The pencQ is not P — No. I think the pencfl is 
ihe same as the oliier ; indeed, I have no doubt it is. 
That is Mr. Crompton Robert's handwriting, and so is 
that (poinHng). 

952. Then there is a little later, ** C. R. paid 'Black 
Horse Hotel,' " four or five times, and ** Cheque given 



by Mr. O. R." Do youknow in whose handwriting that 
is P — I do not know ; I should think the same as thai 

963. Do you know whether Mr. Crompton Roberts 
had any drawing account down here. I have looked at 
his pass-book in order to see whether these were cheques 
given by Mr. Crompton Roberts, and to see whether any 
cheque in his pass-book corresponded to these, and I 
cannot find any for these specific sumsP — Testerday, 
when I was asked whether Mr. Crompton Roberts had 
an account here, I misunderstood the question. I said 
I had no knowledge that he had, except what I heard in 
evidence on the tnal of the petition. I made a mistake 
between Mr. Cromptcm Roberts and Mr. Hughes. I 
remember Mr. Hughes had an account at Hie bsmk here, 
but not Mr. Crompton Roberts. You understand the 
distinction I draw P 

954. Perfectiy. Would Mr. Crompton Robert's 
cheques be honoured on that account--do you know 
as a fact whether that was so P — I should think not. 

955. If cheques were given by Mr. Crompton Roberts, 
those cheques ought, somewhere or other, to be found 
in the pass-book. For instance, I see there is one to 
Simmonds, your clerk, 72Z. 3«. 6d. ?— A cheque from 
Mr. Crompton Roberts ? 

956. Yes? — I know Simmons came up to receive 
800L, for, as 1 told you yesterday, I gave Mr. Crompton 
Roberts my clerk's services as a sort of secretary here, 
and he acted quite irrespective of me. I explained that 
yesterday. 

957. Yes, quite so ? — I know he did come up to get a 
cheque cashed for Mr. Crompton Roberts, and that no 
doubt was the 300Z. he refers to there as having beta 
fetched by Simmonds. Mr. Crompton Roberts' writing 
appears in that, saying it was fetdied by Sinmionds. 

958. Where did Simmons fetch it from? — From 
London. 1 suppose the London Joint Stock Bank. 
He banks at the London Joint Stock Bank, and has no 
other bankers. I know that. 

959. There is a cheque for 300Z. on May 10th, possibly 
that is the 300/.?— No doubt he wanted money for 
current expenses, and he sent up and got the cheque 
cashed. 

960. There is no other Mr. Simmons except your 
Mr. Simmons connected with the election? — I tnink 
not, but I do not know. There is a Mr. Simmons men- 
tioned in the particulars. 



S. Spofforth. 
6 Oct. 1880. 



961. (Mr. HalL) We have a few more questions to ask 
you ?— You asked me yesterday to produce the first letter 
I received from Sir Julian doldsmid. I will hand in 
that letter, and also the reply which I made to that com- 
munication (handing in the 8ame to the Gomimssioners). 

962. Have you any further correspondence? — I re- 
eeived a second letter from Sir Julian Goldsmid which 
was on the occasion when Sir John Adye came down 
here. I telegraphed to him then that Sir John Adye 
was on his way. He then wrote me tins letter by that 
night's post (handing the same to the Commissioners), 

963. Was there any further correspondence? — No, 
none whatever. I also hand in two letters, or rather 
oopiea of two letters, which I wrote to Lewis and Lewis 
in reply to the letters I handed in yesterday (handing 
same to the Commissioners), 

964 Now with regard to the seven houses which were 
engaged at 4L each. Did you engage them ? — Yes, they 
were engaged by Mr. Coleman with my knowledge. 

966. With your knowledge and by your direction ? — 
Yes, he told me the circumstances, and I said they must 
be engaged. 

966. 1 see that in this letter, in which you acknowledge 
tfie receipt of Lewis and liswis' cheque for 350Z. on 
account of expenses, ^ou say nothing about the 200 
sovereigns you had received ? — No, I do not. 

967. How was it that in writing to them, acknowledging 
the receipt of that cheque, you said nothing about the 
leodpt of that money P — He did not refer to it, and I did 
not answer it 

968. Having received 450Z.,. the amount that you sent 
in amounted only to 593L, when he forwarded you a 
cheque for 350Z. ? — There were other claims which I 
mentioned to you yesterday which were claims alleged 
to be due, and sums that had been promised, amounting 
to something like 200Z. or 2001, We had received no 
account whatever. It was supposed they were sums that 
were promised to voters to keep them. 

969.* How do yon know it was 200Z. or SOOl, P— Simply 



BiOHABD JoYNS Ehmebsok re-callcd, and further examined. 

because Mr. Coleman told me so. In fact I did the best 
I could, and got the amount of it the] best way I could, 



E,J. 

Emmerson, 



simply vivd voce. 

970. Did he say the persons to whom they were pro- 
mised ? — He did not. I presume some were expectations 
and some actual promises. 

971. Did he give you a list of those persons P — No, 
but he will give you the list. He says he can furnish a 
list of those. 

972. I understand you to say the reason that you 
mentioned nothing about this 200L in gold was because 
of the 601, you had paid to Coleman to distribute among 
different voters to secure their votes, and that there were 
other sums he told you he had promised to other parties 
but not paid ? — Yes ; that was reidly the case. 

973. I see here you say, ** The particulars of the * Bell 
" Hotel' accounts, 4SL lis, 3d, were sent in upon the 
*^ 4th of June. They were called personal expenses to 
" prevent their passing through the agent for election 
** expenses." They are called in the return ** personal 
" expenses?" — Yes, they are called personal expenses. 

974. When you say they were called personal expenses 
to prevent th^ passing through the agent for election 
expenses, you knew that those expenses were what I 
may call illegitimate — ^illegal expenses? — I don't con- 
sider them illegitimate; they were not really illegi- 
timate. 

975. Why should you call them personal expenses, to 
prevent their passing through the agent for election 
expenses P^I simply wished to make the aocoimt as 
simple as possible. 

976. That is not the reason you gave. You say, "I 
'' called them personal expenses to prevent their passing 
" through the agent for election expenses. " Why should 
you wish to prevent their passing through him if they 
were legitimate? — Well, they were rather large cer- 
tainly. 

977. Was not the real fact that you knew that these 
were not legitimate expenses, and that iheretoj^ they 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION 



H,J. were expenses whioh it would be da2)|^eroTis to pass 

EmmersoH, through the election agent's hands? — I cannot admit 

that, for I do not think they were illegitimate at alL 

6 Oct. 1 880. There was a great deal of expense incurred for the stafi*, 
- and so on. 

978. How can you explain the fact that you say you 
called them personal expenses to prevent their passing 
through the agent for election expenses? Why should 
yoU do that if they were legitimate expenses? — Well, I 
furnished him with the account. I wanted to show 
exactly what they were. 

979. I am not saying what you furnished to Messrs. 
Lewis and Lewis, but why should you call them personal 
expenses to prevent their going through the agent for 
election expenses? I see you go on to say, "The 
** greater part was incurred on the day of the election ? 
— The largest part of this was for a dmner we had after 
the election, in fact, to the staff itself. No portion of 
these expenses were for meat and drink given to voters 
for the purpose of corrupting and influencing their votes. 
It was, in fact, expense incurred by the staff engaged 
that day, and friends of Sir Julian coming in from a 
distance, and so on, who went in and had refreshments. 

980. Now with regard to the claims that have been 
made upon you, have we before us every claim that has 
been made upon you ? — Yes. 

981. In writing P— Yes. 

982. Are there any other claims whatever that have 
been made upon ^ou, other than those vou mentioned 
whioh CJoleman will give us the details of P — ^No, I men- 
tioned them all yesterday to you. 

933. Are you aware of anv other corrupt practices or 
illegal payments whatsoever beyond those which you have 
told us? — ^No, I am not aware of any. I don't recollect 
any. 

984. I am excepting, of course, those you told us. The 
50L you say you gave to Coleman to pay away to different 
voters, and the sums you intended to pay to Ck)leman in 
respect of the promises he had made to otiher persons ?~ 
Certainly. 

985. Beyond that, you are not aware of any other 
corrupt practices or illegal expenses ? — No. 

986. Now there was a list of watchers which you were 
going to hand in to us ? — A list of watchers is con- 
tained in the vouchers of the account handed in, and has 
been published ; but yesterday you wished me to analyse 
them, to ascertain how many of those were voters and 
how many non-voters. You will &id that informa- 
tion at the bottom {handing in a paper to the Comm/iS" 
sioners), 

987. I see there were 12 voters and 4 non-voters P— 
Yes. 

988. I think they were paid a pound a-piece ? — Yes. 

989. That was for watching on the night before the 
election P — ^Yes. 

990. In what sort of position are these 12 who are 
voters; what class of men are they; Ford, Qnested, 
Grey, Gambrill, Easter, Revel, Stokes, Spicer, Cook, 
Bailey, White, and Bootii ? — ^Ford is a bricklayer. 

991. Are they all of them labourers ? — They are all 
householders, I believe ; I think so. 

992. Yes, householders, but are they men of what I 
may call the labouring class andartizans? — ^Yes; they 
are in tolerable positions. 

993. Who were the persons they were set to watch p 
— They were our own friends ; parties who had promused 
their votes to us, and we were afraid they would be 
approached and tampered with, and we wished to protect 
them. 

994. What is the good of having a man outside another 
man's house watching all night P They would not be 
likely to go in the middle of the night? — ^Yes, they 
would; they were wandering about all night, and, of 
course, it was a man in a humble position in life who 
was likely, perhaps, to have a call in the middle of the 
night, or late at night, simply to get him away from his 
house, or, in fact, to tamper with him and bribe hirfi, 

995. Who were the 16 persons who were to be watched P 
— ^I cannot give you their names. 

996. It was 16 persons who were to be watched, I 
suppose P — Sixteen watchers, one or two men together. 
They were walking about the town; not each man to 
have a separate dufy, but they were together, one or two 
in one s&eet, and some in another, and so on. They 
were to protect our own voters from being approached. 

997. What luse could two or three men be walking up 
and down this or that street all night P — ^A very great 



deal It would deter men from calling upon our votew 
for the purpose of tampering with them, and getting our 
men over to their side. 

998. They could not prevent anybody from calling if 
they chose?— They could not prevent it, but they would 
not do it when they saw that they were watched. It was 
to have a deterrent effect 

999. Has this been a usual thing in Sandwich ; have 
you known it before P — ^I have known it, and even known 
ourselves, the gentlemen of the committee, to go out 
and watch a {Articular street to take care and watdi 
that the houses of some of the voters were not appioached 
during the night. It has been a common tldng, but not 
to this extent. I never recollect having 16 watdien 
before, but it was considered necessary on this occasion, 
I think it is a common thing. 

1000. You gave the men a pound a-piece P— Yes ; they 
were parties we knew to be firm friends, those 16 men 
whose names are mentioned there. 

1001. Did you select those 16 men? — No, I had 
nothing to do with that. 

1002. Who did select them p— They were selected by 
the committee, I think. Mr. Coleman was there at the 
time, and their names were given into me aftenrards and 
adopted. They were men who had promised their Totes, 
and could be thoroughly depended upon, who were 
selected for a certain duty, and that was for the protec- 
tion of our friends. 

1008. And for the receipt of one pound each P— They 
had one pound each. 

1004. {Mr, Jeune,) Did you hear that any attempt had 
been made by the other siae to get at anv of your voteiB f 
— It was said so. I was told so. I snow nothing d 
these things. Beally, my services were devoted more 
especially to the committee room, and so on. If any- 
thmg was brought to me afterwards, of course I heazd 
it, and so on. 

1005. Did you hear of any specific instance in which 
any attempt was made by anybody on the other side to 
get at any of your voters P— Yes, I think it must hare 
been mentionea in the committee room. I am not in a 
position, as I tell you, to mention names or anytibing of 
that kind. It was simply a general statement 

1006. You cannot give us any names P — ^I comiot give 
you any names. 

1007. (Mr, HolL) You cannot give the name of any 
person intended to be watched P— No, possibly Mr. Cole- 
man can do eo. 

1008. Or any person who gave you any information aa 
to that being necessary ? — That was admitted generally; 
when we met in committee, and so on, it was then agreed. 
I should think there were six or more there when it was 
resolved that these watchers should be appointed simply 
to take care and protect our own voters. There was no 
secrecy about it. 

1009. You cannot give the name of any person from 
whom you received any information which led you to 
think it necessary P— It was stated in the committee room, 
but I cannot recollect by whom. I cannot recollect the 
name at aU. 

1010. You cannot name any person p — No, 

1011. Have you the list showing who, among the 
canvassers, were voters or non-voters p — ^It was ahst of 
the messengers. There were 26 messengers. 

1012. {Mr, Turner,) At Sandwich P— Yes. 

1013. {Mr, Boll.) You are not speaking of the boys? 
— No, those are not boys. Of the 26 messengers, you 
desired to know how many were voters, and how many 
were not. There were nine voters and 17 non- voters. 
That list is a copy of the one you have {handing the same 
to the Conmmsioners), 

1014. I see this does not include the clerks ?— No. 

1015. They were voters ?— They were voters. 

1016. There were about six or eight clerks and pereona- 
tion agents who were voters ?— I think there were. 

1017. In addition to these messengers p — Yes. 

1018. Were any instructions given at the time the 
watchers were appointed, as to appointing voters or non* 
voters P — No, not at alL 

1019. Did you leave that entirely to Coleman?— It 
appears to have been more a matter of accident than 
anything how many there were of one or the other. 

1020. You left that entirely to Coleman's direction P— 
Yes, entirely. He was to select those whom he was sure 
were most fit and proper. 

1021. Among those 26 messengers nine are voters; 

are the others sons or relatives of voters ? Yes, in aQ 

probability, or connexions in some way. 



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1022. All of them ?— Yes, all of them, I ahonld say. 

1023. It strikes me, and I will get yon to explain it to 
me, that Sandwich is a small pkce, eomparatiyely, to 
require as many as 26 messengers? — ^There is always 
something oonstantiy coming up. 

1024. YouhaveSOO voters altogether?— Yes. 

1025. And 26 messengers. In round numbers, it is a 
messenger to eveiy 19 or 20 voters. What do those 
people do ? — Sometimes a messenger was sent to Bams- 
gate, sometimes to DeaL and sometimes to other places. 
There was always sometning everv morning, communica- 
tions between the parties, and there was always some- 
thing to be done with the messengers. 

1026. These appear to have been all, with one or two 
exceptions, on the same day ? — I don't know that they 
were the same day. 

1027. For one day they appear to have had IO9. 6(1? 
— ^Thev might have been there any previous day ; I am 
not able to say. At all events, the messengers appointed 
at the election had lOa. 6d, ; that is all they got 

1028. Some had one or two guineas apiece. I suppose 
they were employed for more days? — Yes, I suppose 
they were in a different position altogether from the 
o^ers. I do not think it was an unusual number on 
this occasion. 

1029. What class of men were these messengers? — 
Will you mention a name ? 

1030. (Mr. Turner,) Speaking generally ?— All highly 
respectable ; tradesmen some. 

1031. Of what rank in life ? — Some were small trades- 
men. 

1032. {Mr, HolL) Small tradesmen and artisans, or the 
relatives of persons of that class ?~ Yes. I have the two 
canvass books here. You were speaking yesterday about 
the organization, and so on. I told you then we kept 
two bM>ks, one for the candidate and the other for the 
committee. Those are the books we used on this occa- 
sion (kcLnding the same to ihe Commissioners), There is 
nothmg in them. 

1033. Which is the candidate's book and which b 
yours ^ — ^I think the large one was used very mudi by 
Sir Julian Qoldsmid, and afterwards it came into our 
hands, and we used it in the committee. I don't think 
it was left to him at all — at least, not alone. 

1034. Where there are some marks against them in the 
tat column, what does that mean? — Those were for 
Sir Julian Qoldsmid. 

1065. And those in the second ?— For Mr. Grompton 
BobertB. 

1036. And those in the third? — ^There are no marks 
against those ; if there are, I don't know what they are. 

1037. There is a mark in the third column there 
{poirUing) ? — ^That must be some mistake. 

1038. {Mr Jeime.) With regard to these persons whom 
jcm employed, was it ever suggested t* them that thev 
ooght not to vote ? — No, it was not on this occasion. It 
has been customary in former elections to have an under- 
standing between ei^er party to pair off so many instead 
of voting — ihat those who are employed and cannot vote 
under the provisions of the Act of Parliament should not 
do so, but that l^ey should pair off with parties on the 
opposite side who were in a similar position. On this 
oocaaion the point was never suggested, and it does not 
appear to have occurred to any of us that we were in- 
fringing the provisions of any Act of Parliament in 
Toting. I do not recollect any conversation or aUusion 
io it at all, but I believe it was done and not thought of. 
We generally find that it operates about the same on 
either side ; there is a certain number, and if you pair 
them ofE^ it is a tolerably equal thing, and that is the 
best thing to do always, and what we have generally done 
on former occasions. On this occasion it was not done. 

1039. There are one or two things I am not quite 
satisfied about yet — that is, with regard to this money 
you received, but which you never mentioned to Mr. 
Xiewis. I think it is a matter you ought to explain, and 
give us certainly all the information you can about it. 
XCfa received 200 sovereigns ?— Yes. 

1040. Of those 200 sovereigns, you gave 50 to Mr. 
Coleman?— Yes. 

1041. And those 50 you knew, of course, he was going 
io employ for purposes not legitimate ? — I did. 

1042. Now those 200 sovereigns you never mentioned 
to Mr. Qeorge Lewis, though the occasion did occur on 
which perhaps it would have beeii desirable you should 
do so?— Yes. 

1043. Now that leaves ia one's mind a very strong 
Q3334 



impression that the other 150 sovereigns were to be 
employed in the same way as the 50 tiiat you gave to 
Mr. Goleman, now, was not that so ? — ^I think it was. 

1044. When you jfot the 200 sovereigns in that way, 
did it not strike you it was the intention that that money 
should be employed in the way in which it was eventually 
employed ? — ^Yes ; there was nothing said at the time. 

1045. Of course not, but was not that what you under- 
stood? — I did not understand anything; conversation 
was avoided. You must draw that inference which the 
circumstances will give you. 

1046. What is your idea, I suppose you have no 
doubt at all that there was at least 150L required to pay 
the things which Ooleman promised should be paid ?— I 
have not 

1047. Of course, I wish you really, in your own 
interest, to answer the questions. Having said nothing 
about the 200 sovereigns, persons might be inclined to 
draw the inference, I don*t, that you kept the 1502. for 
yourself. I am sure you did not ? — No. 

1048. That being so, clearly you must have intended 
to apply it to some purpose or another. It was, of 
course, the case, was it not, that it was intended to apply 
it to the things which Colinan promised should be paid ? 
— ^It was. At that time I did not know what they would 
be. 

1049. There is one question I should like you to 
answer from your experience. What do you think is the 
effect of the ballot? Do you think it has tended to 
diminish corruption in a place like this ? — ^I think not ; I 
think on tiie contrary. 

1050. You think it tends to increase it ? — ^I think so. 

1051. I do not know whether you have thought over 
the subject at all, or whether it has struck you during 
the last election, in which way secresy of voting tends to 
increase expense ? — Simply that we knew before exactly 
whether a voter did carry out his promise and intention 
or not, but now we do not, and th^^ore &e voters, some 
of them, receive from both parties. There is no doubt 
about that, but I do not think that that goes on to a 
great extent I will not impute that to the constituency 
here. I do not think it goes on to a very great extent 
here, but it gives the opportunity of doing so ; and there- 
fore, I think, the ballot is bad. From my own ex- 
perience, I much prefer the other mode of voting. 

1052. Did it not strike you that, not knowing how a 
voter was going to vote, it became necessary, if I may so 
express it, to expend more money broadcast so as to in- 
fluence as large a number as possible. Is that what 
occurred to your mind at the last election ? — No, I don't 
exactly know that it did. 

1053. So far as you know from your experience of 
Sandwich, the ballot has not had the effect of checking 
corruption ? — ^I think not I don't consider that we have 
been very corrupt at Sandwich — not on f^e whole. 
Years ago it was customary, before the Reform Bill, that 
every freeman when he went to the booth should receive 
a pound. That was the old system, and to a certain 
extent, of course, that has never been eradicated from 
their minds. Elections have become so pure now. I 
don't mean to say that it operates at present, but that 
was the old system. There used to be a dinner, which 
was given by the member after the result had been 
announced, and you either had your dinner or you 
had your pound, if you chose to demand it, in the liall, 
when you went to tender your vote. That was the old 
system. 

1054. {Mr, Turner,) The whole class of voters, not 
only freemen? — There were none but freemen at that 
time. There was only one class and they were freemen. 
Then came the Beform Bill and introduced the house- 
holder — the lOL qualification. 

1055. (Mr. HolL) Do you think that the freemen 
expect that now ? — No, \ do not know that they do, but 
there are some of them still extant Here is a very 
curious old document (handing same), if you like to 
look at it ; it is the poll whicn was taken in the year 
1800 ; it is quite a curiosity. 

1056. (Mr. Jewne. ) You have mentioned pure elections. 
Was 1874 a pure election as far as you know ?— Yes, the 
general election. 

1057. You took part in that, did you not? — Yes, 
I did. 

1058. (Mr. HolL) Were the expenses of that election 
great ? — No, the expenses have been filed. 

1059. We have not had them at present, but we are 
to have them from Mr. Surrasre. Were the expenses at 
Sandwich as large as at Deal, do you think? — ^Yes, I 
should think so, quite. 



JR. J. 
Smmersen. 

eOet 1880* 



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SAND)¥IOH ELBOTION COMMISSION: 



B, L, CMemmu 
6 Oct. 1880. 



BsKJAMcr LoNGDBN OoLBMAN BWQm and oxaiBmed* 



1060. (Mr. Twner.) What are you ?— A farmer. 

1061. At Sandwich ?— Yes. 

1062. Besides being a farmer, you are in the habit of 
taking great interest in politics at Sandwich ? — 1 have on 
this occasion. 

1068. You were very soon in communication with 
Mr. Emmerson about managing the election in May 
1880 ? — Quite so. 

1064. We have heard from him that you had a sum 
of 40L handed to you to engage public-houses ?— Quite 
right. 

1065. Is that true ?— Yes. 

1066. Just tell us how you applied that 40Z. ?— I can 
give you a list. 

1067. A list of the houses ?— Yes Qvandiiig same), 

1068. I believe there were seven houses which you 
engaged at U. apiece, were there not ?— Yes, that is the 
40L you asked me about 

1069. The seven houses are not here. Just tell us 
how you applied the 40^. which Mr. Enmierson paid to 
you?— I paid it on account. There was a running 
account there for refreshments that the voters had, and 
I paid on account for what was had at those houses. 

1070. Refreshments furnished to voters ? — Yes. 

1071. Before the election ?— Yes. 

1072. How often did you make those payments ? — Two 
or three are coupled together in one of those items it 
may be, but most of them are in one sum. 

1073. Part of this 20?., Mr. Emmerson has told us, 
you applied in payment of rosettes P — Part of the 401, — 
Yes. 

1074. Was it 20L ?— In rosettes — No ; a smaller sum 
tiian that. I cannot recollect. 

1075. I see here one sum for rosettes 3L 5s ; Guest, 
ditto, IZ. 19fi. ; Baker, ditto, 10s. ; Rose, ditto, 19». 6^. ; 
Ditto, 11. Ss. 6d ; are those all the rosettes ?— That is 
all I paid for. 

1076. That is all you pMd for rosettes ?— All I had 
anything to do with. 

1077. Where did you get those rosettes from— from 
the people mentioned here ? — From the people mentioned 
here. 

1078. Are they voters ? — ^Notall. 

1079. How many of them?— If you wiU mention the 
names I will tell you. 

1080. Is Waller a voter P— I believe noi I think he 
has a house hired by a leather-cutter, his employer ; he 
is simply a shopman. I am not positive as to that. 

1081. Is Guest a voter P— Yes. 

1082. Is Baker a voter ? — She is a single lady. 

1083. Is T. E. Rose a voter?— Yes. 

1084. Now besides this 401, you had a sum of 50Z. 
from Mr. Emmerson ? — Quite right. 

1085. How did you expend that? — In securing the 
electors on the day of election. 

1086. " Securing the electors " is a general expression. 
What do you mean by that? — I applied it to those who 
would not vote unless they had something immediately 
before and after voting. 

1087. Some money ?— Yes. 

1088. Have you a list of those electors P— Yes {handing 
same). 

1089. Thomas Port, 41. ; that is out of the 601. P— 
That is out of the 50^. 

1090. Where does he live? — Somewhere near here; 
Monegham, I believe. He was a householder at Sand- 
wich and he is still on the list ; he was a non-resident 
here ; he was away at the time. 

1091. R. H. Bright, 4Z?— He lives at Sandwich. 

1092. Thomas Wanstall, 51, P— The same. 

1093. Sandwich P— Yes. 

1094. John Castle, 41 P— The same. 

1095. We should like to know the streets if you can 
tell us. Where does Bright live ?— Fisher Street. 

1096. Wanstall?— The same. 

1097. Castle ?— Vicarage Lane. 

1098. Robert Ferrier, 11. ?— St. Peter Street. 

1099. J. A. Spicer, 21. ?— Church Street, St. Mary. 

1100. Then there is a sum of 141, , which appears to 
have been distributed between William Pidduck, Robert 
BaQy, Zaohariah Burton, J. Drayson, and R. Smith ?— 



1101. And there is a note you have put to it, " Journey 
" to island to fetch Baily, canvassing, and polling 2L 
" under." Just explain that? — Mr. Pidduck; you see 
his name coupled with those — employed or had employed 
all those men. Baily had left him, and had a sitrwtion 
somewhere in the island. I could not get his addpeas 
and I employed Pidduck to fetch him. He put his horse 
in the van and went to fetch him early in the morning 
with the other names to vote. I employed Pidduck. 

1102. And Pidduck employed these four men P— .Those 
men had been or were in Pidduck's employ. Bajly ^ras 
not then in Pidduck's employ, but he knew his aadresB 
and he went to fetch the men. 

1103. What became of Burton, Drayson, and Smith? 
— They were in the town somewhere. 

1104. You gave them the 14Z. ?— I gave Pidduck the 141. 

1105. To distribute amongst them P — Yes. 

1106. When this 4L and these difierent sums y^stQ 
paid to these men, what was said to them about their 
vote ? — Some of them came to me and said they would 
vote provided I would give them that amount. 

1107. Vote for Sir Julian Goldsmid ?— Yes, provided 
I gave them that amount. 

1108. And you gave it to them ? — I gave it to them. 

1109. As to the addresses of Pidduck, Baily, Burton, 
Drayson, and Smith, are they all Sandwich men?— 
Baily is not a Sandwich rna.r\ , 

1110. Where is he ? — I cannot say, but I could 
find out. 

1111. Is Pidduck a Sandwich man P — ^Yes. 

1112. Where does he live?— Cattle Market on the 
register ; you will find him at Moat Sole now. 

1113. Burton, where does he live ? — ^Milwall Place ; 
that would find him. I think he has moved from tii&re, 

1114 Drayson P^Moat Sole again. 

1115. Smith?— King Street. 

1116. Then we come to Chaney Harrison, 11, ?— He is 
employed in a brewery at Sandwich. 

1117. Where does he live ?— I think. Church Street, 
St. Mary, but I am not positive as to that. 

1118. Then J. Easter, 11, ?— I do not know him, but 
I expect he lives at St. Peter Street, 

1119. Then we come to William Deverson, 4L?— 
Eastry, near Sandwich. 

1120. Why did you make such a diflterence in the 
amount you gave to these men ? — Simply the value they 
put on the vote. One man put it at 1^. and others at 
4/., and some maybe part payment; they may expect 
something. I cannot say as to that, that is what I gaye 
them. 

1121. Because they asked it ?— Yes. 

1122. Thomas Mannings, IL 10«. Where does he 
live ; — Millwall Place. 

1123. Edward Smithers, IZ. P— Church Street, Si 
Clements. 

1124. Daniel Port, 15^. P— High Street. 

1125. What is he P — He is a farm labourer. 

1126. The first Port is 41 ?— He is a son of the 
other one. 

1127. Who is Daniel Port P— Daniel is the father. 

1128. The son got 4L, and the father 155. P— Yes. 

1129. Harry Walker, 11, ; where does he live?— 
Fisher Street 

1130. William Burton, II, P— New Street. 

1131. Richard Gambrill, 2L P— Paradise Lane. 
1182. And W. G. Deverson, 21. P— I think he lived 

with his parents. 

1133. The whole is 51L 5«., and I understood you to 
say that every one of these men demanded these Boaaos 
before they would vote for Sir Julian P — Quite sa 

1134. Besides these two sums of 401. and 501,, what 
else had you to do with the election? — Nothing. I 
canvassed for Sir Julian with him. 

1135. How many canvassers did you employ?— I 
really cannot say. The landlords of the public-houses 
were to exert themselves in canvassing the customers. 

1136. We have seven public-houses at 4L a pieoa 
Besides that did you employ any canvajseers P — No. 

1137. What other moneys did you receive besides the 
40?. and 50Z. P— Nothing. 

1138. You employed no canvassers besides the aerea 
publichooBeo p— That is alL 



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27 



1139. And 7€a expected ihat the landlords were to 
oanTBSS their customers P — Unless any one entered, such 
88 Piddnck, or any one like that ; of ooorse they were 
asked to do the same, but we had no canyassers. 

1140. The understanding was that the landlords of 
&e publio-honses were to oanvass the costomers on 
behalf of Sir Julian ?— Yes. 

1141. And th^ were to receive 42. a piece P — ^Yes^ and 
lor tiie use of the committee room. 

1142. '^ Committee room " is a nominal term, I 
suppose P — ^Yes. 

1143L Yon say you employed these canvassers ; what 
else did vou do on the dection P — ^I do not know that I 
did anything. 

1144. I want to know, because you know better than 
I do P--^I canvassed for Sir Julian. I think that is aU. 

1145. Had you anything to do with flags or rosettes P 
^No, nothing ; only what is mentioned in that list. 

1146. What were the prices here for the rosettes ?— 
I think they vary. 

1147. They vary?— Yes. You will see the prices 
down. I thmk, perhaps, I can show you the vOacmers. 

1148. Were the prices usual, ,or were they raised very 
much for the occasion P — Oh no ; 6^. 6cZ. a dozen is about 
the average for them. 

1149. You do not know whether that is the average 
price? — No, I do not. I had never much to do with 
them. 

1150. That was the election price P — ^Tes, that was the 
election price, Qs. 6d, I think in some cases they were 
5^; a dozen. 

1151. (Mr, Holly Who first spoke to you about acting 
in the election ; who did you first have anv conversation 
lidtii about your taking any active part in the elation ? — 
I really cannot say. I think I made encpiiries of 
Mr. Emmerson as to what was gc»ng to be done. We 
had no committee. That is how it commenced. 

1152. What did he tell you ; did he say what you 
were to do? — ^Not exactlv. I fell in with Sir Julian at 
the station. .1 think tibat was the starting of it. I 
received him as one of the leading Liberals ; one thing 
grew into another, and that is how it went on. I really 
cannot give you a better explanation. 

1153. Just give us the substance of your first con- 
versation with Mr. Emmerson. You must have made 
some arrangement that you should act for the party P 
— ^I cannot say; the time was short, and I lent my 
services. 

1154. What were you doing at the time of the elec- 
tion P— Employed on my business. 

1155. You lent your services P — I lent my services to 
the Liberals. 

1156. What arrangement was made between you and 
Mr. Ihnmerson about your acting ; you must have come 
to some arrangement between yourselves as to what 
yoa were to do P — I entered as canvasser. I suppose I 
knew the inhabitants of Sandwich about as w^ as any 
one, and that is how I fell into the affidrs. I really 
cannot say that there was any proper arrangement 
made. 

1157. You began it by canvassing P — ^Yes, for Sir 
Julian. 

1158. You went roxmd with himP — I went round with 
him every time. 

1159. Had you anything to do with any previous 
election P— Very little. I cannot say that I did not have 
anything to do, but I had very httle to do with other 
elections. 

1160. Did you appear at all upon the 1874 election P 
—I do not remember that I did except just amongst our 
own men. I just canvassed tiiem, that is idL 

1161. From whom did you firbt receive any money ? — 
Mr. Emmerson. 

1162. When was that ?— A day or two previous to the 
polling, I believe. 

1163. Previously to that you must have had some con- 
versation with Mr. Emmerson which led to his giving 
you money ; just tell us the whole of what took place 
between yourselves ; what was the origin of your mter- 
fering and taking an active part in this election ?— I saw 
tJiat tiie Conservatives were very busy, and I thought 

i* woidd be necessary to have money to meet tiie case. ' 

1164 Tell us the conversation you had with Mr. Em- 
^tterson when it was first arranged between you and him 
"^iat yon should act in any way in this election ? — I 
cannot remember. 



1165. (Mr. Turner.) Did you go to him, orheocMue B.L.CcUman. 
to you ?— I went to hini, 

1166. (Mr. HoU.) Tell us what took phioe as near as • ^^ 1®®^^ 
you can remember, the substance of it?— I do not — — — 
remember, only he asked me if I would canvass as 

time was short, and he did not know who to get, and 
I said, "Yes, I will go with pleasure." 

1167. At that time was any money civen vou ?— No 
not until I applied for it. J iS ^ jouf no, 

1168. Was anything said at that time about pavinir 
anybody?— Nothing. ^ ^ ^ 

1169. At that time you say no money had passed ? 

Nothing. 

1170. Was any instruction given to you by Mr. Em- 
merson beyond the fact of directing you to canvass? 

I had no instructions. 

1171. Were there any other instructions whatever ?— 
I do not remembr any. 

1172. Li the first instance you received no instructions 
but that you were to canvass ? — That is all. 

1173. How long was that before the time you appHed 

to him for money. How long were you canvassing ? 

Not very long. It only lasted a few days. 

1174. Tell us, as near as you can, what date did you 
first see Mr. Emmerson, and it was arranged with him 
that vou should canvass ?— I first saw Mr. Emmerson, I 
should think, when we heard that Sir Julian Goldsmid 
was coming down. I called and ascertained that he 
would come down. That was the first of it. 

1175. Can you tell us what day of the week that was ? 
— I cannot remember. 

1176. Was that on Monday the 10th?— I cannot 
remember at all. 

1177. Was that before Sir Julian Goldsmid came 
down ?— I saw Mr. Emmerson in the morning or after- 
noon, or it might be the day before he came down. 

1178. Then you say he asked you to canvass ?— Yes. 
I met Mr. Emm erson, I believe, on the platform! 
There was nothing much done before then. He simply 
left me to canvass with Sir Julian, and I met him by 
appointment every time he came to Sandwich after- 
wards ; nothing more than that. 

1179. Youcanvassed with him?— Yes. 

1180. When did you first apply to Mr. Emmerson for 
any money ?— I should think two or three days, it might 
have been Thursday, previous to the polling day. 

1181. How many days was that after you first met 
Mr. Enmierson ? — Only a day or two. 

1182. You applied to him for money ?— Yes. I told 
him it was necessary that we should have money. 

1183. Tell us what you said to him?— I said, "They 
" are veiy busy in Sandwich, the electors seem very 
" dissatisfied as there is money flying about and they 
** can have what they want, and if we do not mind what 
" we are about we shall lose our position. To secure 
" friends something must be done." 

1184. When you say *« something must be done," what 
do you mean by that, that money must be spent P— 
Yes. 

1185. That money must be paid to the voters?— Yes. 
It was a case of refreshments only at that time. 

1186. At first, you say, it was only refreshments ? 

Yes. 

1187. Was that when he gave you the 40Z. ?— Yes. 

1188. How did he give it to you, in gold?— Yes, I 
think it was in gold, two 20L 

1189. You engaged the seven public-houses did yon 
not P— Yes. 

1190. At 4Z. a-piece ?— Yes. 

1191. Had you done tl;iat before you applied to him 
for money?— I had done it in tins way, they were 
Liberals, they stated to me that thev were tormented by 
the Conservatives to give them their support, and I 
asked them to wait as we might have a candidate' and we 
would see what could be done with them. That was the 
ground I went upon. 

1192. Had you arranged with them before you applied 
to Mr. Emmerson for money?—! had made no arrange 
ments, simply wait and we will see what can be done. 

1193. When did you arrange with them what took 
place between you. You say they told you that they 
were pestered by the Conservatives to give them their 
support P — ^Yes. 

1194. What did they say to you?— There was no 
arrangement made. I simply told them they were to 
allow a little refreshment and I would pay for it ^ 

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B. L.Coleman, 
6 Oct 1880. 



1195. Yon say you asked them to wait, wait for what ? 
— ^That was a day or two before we knew Sir Jnlian 
Goldsmid was oominff down, the Conservatives were 
taking all the public-honses. I asked them to wait a 
day or two simply to know my position. 

1196. To wait for what?— Not to go over to the CJon- 
servatiyes. I told them we might do something for 
them. 

1197. Ton asked them not to go oyer to the Conser- 
vatives for a day or two? — ^Yes. 

1198. Because yon thought what?— Because I thonght 
we might have a candidate, and as soon as I found we 
had got one I told them to go on, and I applied for that 
money to pay the expenses. 

1199. I am speaking now about the seven public- 
houses that you engaged. Are you speaking about 
them P— Yes. 

1200. When you found that you had got a candidate 
did you go to them again ?— ^Yes, directly. 

1201. What did you say to them?— I told them that 
they could allow a httle refreshment to friends, and that 
they would be paid for it. 

1202. What arrangement did you make about taking 
the houses at 4Z. a-piece. What was said about that? — 
Simply this, they said thev could have that amount 
from the Conservatives, and so that they should not be 
the losers by ^being with us, that amount was to pay 
them. 

1203. They said they coidd have that amount from the 
Conservatives, and you agreed, in order to keep them on 

Sour side, to give them 4tL a-piece for a room in the 
ouse? — Yes. 

1204. What were they to do for that ?— To use their 
influence. 

1205. They were to use their influence with the persons 
who frequented the house ? — Yes. 

1206. Did they agree to do that?— They did. 

1207. And afterwards you paid them the 4Z. a house? 
— ^Yes, afterwards. 

1208. You say, on this occasion, when you applied to 
Mr. Emmerson you got 40L from him? — ^Yes. 

1209. That was to pay partly for the refreshments 
whidi you told these people they might supply to your 
friends ?--Just so. 

1210. It was given to you for that purpose ? — Yes. 
121L Was anything said about whether the whole of 

it was to be devoted to that purpose, or was it left to 
your discretion ? — It was left to my discretion. There 
was nothing more said. 

1212. NothiDg more was said at that time except that 
you were to keep the expenses down ? — No. 

1213. To keep the public-house bills down for supply- 
ing refreshments to your friends. Did you go round to 
these public-houses each day and pay the accounts ? — ^I 
might not have gone each day, I went several times. 

1214. I see the ** King's Arms " is 6L ?— Yes. 

1215. Had you any account from them? — They gave 
me a receipt. 

1216. Had you any account from them of what had 
been supplied ?— No particulars. 

1217. You paid the 5Z. upon their telling you that 
they had supplied that amount ? — Yes, upon tiieir faith. 

1218. Did you pay that sum all at one time ? — ^AU at 
one time. 

1219. You did not go round from day to day then ? — 
Some houses I did. 

1220. You had no vouchers from them ?— I believe I 
have. 

1221. You have a receipt I know, but no bill with 
particulars P — No. 

1222. You took their statement that they had supplied 
5Z. worth ?— They produced their slate in some instances, 
reckoned it up at so much, and I gave them the money. 

1223. You had no bill from the " King's Arms " ?— 
No. 

1224. The next is the ** Green Posts," lOZ. Had you 
any particulars of that ? — ^None. 

1225. Was that paid in one sum or several ? — I ]paid 
it twice. I asked him for a receipt for the 102. I beheve 
I paid him twice. 

1226. Are you sure, was it not one sum ? — lOL in one 
sum. I paid him twice. He gave me a receipt for 102. 
Up to that date that is what I paid him. 

1227. Are you sure it was one sum. You would not 
pay the first 5L without taking a receipt ?— It was half a 
Boveroign or something like that 



1228* Half a sovereign the first time, and 92. lOt. the 
second ? — ^Yes. 

1229. Without any particulars ? — He simply piodnoed 
his book, his slate, with a few names. 

1230. You say first a book, th^i a slate. Did he pro- 
duce a slate or a book, or did he produce nothing, jfmt 
think, was anvthing produced to you at all?— I remem- 
ber at the " IBricklayer's Arms " he had a slaAe. 

1231. The ''Green Poets"?— A book he took fmm 
his drawer. 

1282. Are you sure of that ?— Yes. 

1233. Was that amount exactly 102. ?— I cannot aay. 
I asked him for a receipt for 102. 

1234. The first is the '* King's Arms" which is exacay 
52., and the next is the '' Green Posts," 102. Do yon 
mean that there were entries of goods supplied to difierent 
persons to the exact amount of 102. ? — ^It might nob haye 
been the exact amount. He gave me a receipt for 102., 
and the other account would run. I paid no odd money 
at the " King's Arms." I paid 52., but to the best of my 
recollection were was lis, 6(i due at the time. 

1235. Was there more due at the '' Green Posts" than 
at the ** King's Arms " ? — There might have b«Bn some 
odd shillings due at the time, being lar^ sums, If they 
were small ones I cleared them up. Being large amonntB 
I paid the pounds and left the odd shillings. That is 
the system. 

1236. Were they to go on supplying then?/— Yea 

1237. They were ?— I endeavoured to check it as mndi 
as I could. 

1238. Did you endeavour to check it by paying?— 
Yes. 

1239. Did you check it ?— I told them not to make it 
too heavy. 

1240. And that is all you did?— Yes. 

1241. Then there is the ''George and Dragcm,''the 
"Mermaid," the "Three Colts," the "Forrester's 
Arms," the " Bricklayer's Arms," the " Cinque Porte," 
and the "Salutation," to each of which you went and 
paid the bills ?— Yes. 

1242. You authorised refreshments to be supplied at 
other public-houses besides those which you engaged? 
— ^All the houses which I paid money to are in that 
list. 

1243. {Mr. Turner.) Does that include the seven?— 
Yes. 

1244. {Mr. HoU.) There are nine houses which yon 
paid for refreshments? — ^Yes. 

1245. So that you paid for refreshments to other 
houses besides the seven which you engaged at 42. each? 
—Yes. 

1246. Have you had from these public-houses any 
further claims ? — Yea 

1247. Where are they, do you know ? — I have not got 
them now. I had bills. They gave them to me. 

1248. What have you done with them?— I belie?e 
Mr. Emmerson has them. 

(To Mr. Emmeram) Are they the 89L ? 
{Mr. Efivmerson.) Those are the 892., the partkmlais 
of whidi I handed in yesterday. 

1249. {Mr. HoU.) {To Hie Witne$8.) All the fnrflier 
claims you handed over to Mr. Emmerson ? — Yes. 

1250. Here is an item of 32. for railway and other 
expenses to Mr. Feare, what was that for? — He lived 
beyond Sevenoaks. I have not his address with me. 
It was simply to satisfy him for his expenses. 

1251. He lived beyond Sevenoaks ? — He was a mason, 
and it was for loss of time. 

1262. You gave him 32. P— Yes. 

1253. When was it arranged that you would give fayn 
32. if he came to vote P — ^I made no arrangement nntU 
I met him on the polling day, or the day bef ora 

1254. Had you not communicated with him before ?— 
Yes, through his wife. His wife wrote to him. 

1255. What did you tell her?— I told her that his 
expenses would be paid providing he came. 

1256. What else ? — Nothing more passed between hia 
wife and myself. 

1257. You told her that his expenses would be paid 
if he came P — Yes. 

1258. And afterwards you met him there and agreed 
to give him ZL ? — ^He dauned 32. I was obliged to give 
it to him. 

1259. It is a good deal more than his expenses, is it 
not. . His fare were and back would not be more thaa 
5i. P— He was a masony and there was loos of time. 



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MINUTB8 OF EVIDBNOlb 



29 



1260. You paid him the rest for loBS of time ?—- Yes. 

1261. For coming over to vote P— Yes. 

1262. Had you told his wife you would do that?— 
No, I said nothing about that. 

126a You told her you would paj his expensea. Did 
Toa sav you would pay him his expenses, and for his 
loas of time?— No, that I would pay his expenses, 
simply those words. 

1264. You paid him the ZL before he voted?— No, 
not until after he had been. 

1265. I thought you told us you met him at the 
polling booth P— No, I said I met him after that day, 
after I met him he claimed his 3Z. 

1266. On the day before when you met him, did you 
not tell him what you would give him. He asked what 
he was to have then surely P — He might have done, but 
I really cannot remember now. 

1267. Did you tell him what you would give him ? — 
If he had asked me I should have done. I cannot say 
whether I remember. 

1268. You cannot say whether you remember pro- 
mising that you would give him 3Z. or not ?-— No. 

1269. You did not pay him untQ after he voted?— -I 
did not pay him until after he voted. 

1270. Then there is H. ClarkP— I paid him after he 
voted. 

1271. When did you arrange with him that you would 
pay him his expenses ? Where did he come ^m ? — He 
came from Sevenoaks. 

1272. How did you communicate with him? — ^I think 
one of the committee wrote to him. He came and found 
me after he had polled. I did not see Clark until he 
came to me after he polled. 

1273. You say one of the committee wrote to him to 
come ? — ^Yes. I did not write. 

1274. Did you communicate with him at all, directly 
or indirectly ? — No. 

1275. After he came to you, having polled, you gave 
him ZL ?— Yes. 

1276. Did he say that he had been promised 32. if he 
came over to vote ? — No. 

1277. Did he ask you for the 31 ?— He asked me. He 
said he supposed it was worth SL (they were his words 
to the best of my recollection), and I gave it to him. 

1278. Who did the rosettes go to, I see altogether 
there are between 8L and 9L for rosettes? — Where were 
they sent to ? 

1279. Yes, what was done with them ?— -Distributed 
amongst the electors at a committee room. 

1280. Coleman and Harris watching, IL 10«. Is that 
yourself? — No. 

1281. When did you make this list out ?— That is a 
copy of a list I made out when the accounts were made 
up. 

1282. Did you keep any memorandum of the money 
that you paid at different places ? — Simply on a few slips 
ol paper I might have had with me. 

1283. You say this is a copy of what ? — That is a copy 
of a list I made up at the time the expenses were aaked 
for. 

1284. When was that?— I cannot say now. I met 
Mr. Emmerson, and he told me he wanted the accounts 
in that same afternoon. I run it through then, and that 
is a copy of it. 

1285. Was that after the petition? — I cannot say 
whether it was before or after, now, about that time. 

1286. Are the claims for 89Z. odd for the same public- 
houses that are mentioned in this list ? — The same. 

1287. That is the balanoe that you left for things 
which were supplied after you paid those sums ? — Yes. 

1288. Were the bills for this 892. sent in to you?— I 
collected them. 

1289. At the time they were collected did you in any 
way check the particulars ? — No, but I was surprised to 
thmk that they came to so much. 

1290. Did you in any way check or see any particulars 
of what had been supplied, or were they lump sums ? — 
Some stated that they simply took stock before and after 
the election, others produced a slate and showed the 
amounts, and some simply stated a lump sum. 

1291. (Mr, Tv/mer.) Then when you made your pay- 
ments by instalments you left a large balance generally ? 
— Kot then. I left the odd money then. 

1292. (Mr. HolL) That is how you disposed of this 
402. Is that the sum which you received from Mr. £m- 
mezBon on the first occasion ?— Yes* 



any more money B.L.Cokmuk^ 



it was the day 



1293. Did you afterwards receive 
from him ?— Yes. 

1294. How much ?—50L 

1295. When was that?— I believe 
previous to the election. 

1296. Have you received any more money from hirn ? 
— None at all. 

1297. Of that you are certain ?— Yes, I will swear 
that 

1298. Directly or indirectly P— None whatever. 
4299. Have you received any more money besides that 

from any one ? — ^I have received no more money from 
any one. 

1300. Was that 612. in sovereigns ?— Yes. 

1301. And you distributed it as mentioned in this list? 
—Yes. 

1302. Now, Thomas Port, what is he P— A farm laboiprer, 
or something like that. He is employed on a farm. 

1303. At the time that you gave him this 4Z., what 
arrangement did you make with him P — He came in after 
he had polled, and I could not get rid of him without I 
gave it to him. 

1304. You did not pay him this after he polled ; just 
think ?— Yes, I did, immediately after. 

1305. But what arrangement had you made before ? — 
I made no arrangement with him, with the exception 
that I saw his father, and asked him to go and get him, 
and said that I would satisfy him, or make it right with 
him, or something to that effect 

1306. You got his father to go and get him to vote, 
and you told his father you would make it right with 
him ?— Yes. 

1307. Had you seen Port at all yourself before he 
voted ? — I do not think so. 

1338. Then after he had voted you gave him this 4L ? 
— ^Yes, he came and found me, told me he had voted for 
us, and claimed 42. He said the others were getting it, 
and he meant having it 

1309. When he said the others were getting it, do you 
know who he alluded to ? — The other side ; the Conser- 
vatives. 

1310. You gave him 4Z ?— Yes, I gave 4L 

1311. Can you tell us where he lived ?— I believe he 
worked on a farm at Monegham at the time. He was a 
householder in Deal, until he left to go to Monegham. 

1312. Is he a freeman of Deal ?— No. 

1313. What is he?— He was a householder. He is one 
of the out voters. 

(Adjourned for a short time,) 

1314. Now, with regard to R. H. Bright— what is he ? 
— ^I think he works along the river ; a jobbing man ; 
does anything. 

1315. He is a jobbing man, who works along the river ? 
—Yes. 

1316. Where does he live?— Usher Street 

1317. Sandwich?— Sandwich. 

1318. What arrangement did you make with him ?— I 
met him on the polling day. 

1319. Tell us shortly what took place between you ? — 
He said he would vote for the Liberals, but he must have 
4Z. ; he would vote for the Liberals if I gave hiTY^ some- 
thing. He came to me after the voti^, and I gave 
him 42. 

1320. He said he would vote for the Liberals if you 
gave him U. ? — I do not know that the sum was stated ; 
but he said, *' If vou do something for me, I will go and 
" vote for the Liberals." 

1321. And you told him you would?— I told him I 
%ould. 

1322. And for the vote you gave him 4L ?— Yes. He 
said the others had it, and he meant having it 

1323. You told me just now that Port told you the 
other side were getting paid ? — Yes. 

1324. Do you know anybody who was distributing 
money on the other side ?— No ; only rumour. 

1325. Who did you hear was distributing it ?— It might 
have been Lock or Hughes. Hughes, I think, was one 
of the nrmes. I am not positive as to that. I did not 
ask him the name. 

1326. Did you hear of anybody who was distributing 
money on the other side ? — Only that there was money 
being distributed. No one came to me and said, '* Some- 
*' body has promised me so much." 

1327. Did you hear who it was being done byP— No. 



6 Oct 1880. 



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SANDWDOfi BXJ9CTI0N OO0IMI6SION : 



6 Oct. 1880. 



1328. Ton said Lock or HnglieB P— I heard those two 
names mentioned. 

1329. As distributing money P— Yes; but it was only 
rnmotir. 

1330. What Lock was that ?— He is a retired gentle- 
man, I believe ; he has retired from bnsiness. 

1^1. Do yon know his Christian name? — I do not 
know his Ohnstian name. 

1332. Did yon hear of any persons on the other side 
who had received money ?— No, only hearsay. 

1333. Did yon hear the names of any one?— No, 
nothing podtiye ; nothing definite. 

1834. Who were yon told had received money on the 
other side P — Only mose who voted that way, I suppose. 

1335. Did you have any specific names mentioned to 
you ; any particular names P — No ; I do not remember 
any. 

1336. Thomas Wanstall; what is heP— A steamboat 
msm ; I think he is employed on board. 

1337. Has he a house at Sandwich?— Yes, in Fisher 
Street, I think. 

1338. Is he a freeman or a householder ? — A house- 
holder. 

1339. What arrangement did you make with him P— I 
saw his wife, he was not at home ; she communicated 
with liim somehow; he was at Salt- Pans, where the 
steamboats generally lay. 

1340. What arrangement did you make with his wife P 
— None ; only she sent for him, and he came to see me, 
but I forget whether it was before or after the poUing. 

1341. What arrangement did you make with her ?— 
There was nothing said, only, " If you want him he is 
" down there, and he will come if you send for him.*' 
He made the arrangement. 

1342. With you P— Yes. 

1343. What was the arrangement P — He said he must 
have 5?. 

1344. He said he must have 6^. if he voted for you P— 
Yes. 

1345. Was that before he voted P— I cnnnot be certain 
about that ; it was eitiier just before or after ; it was on 
the day. 

1346. Onthedayof the polling?— Yes. 

1347. Do you remember whether you made any 
arrangement with him or his wife, that you would give 
him something if he came before he polled ? — Not with 
his wife, and I did not see him ; I could not find him, 
and I had not seen him before. 

1348. Was the arrangement made before or after the 
polling ; you do not know ? — ^I will not be certain as to 
that. ' 

1349. Now, John Castle; what is he P— I think a 
pilot. 

1350. When did you arrange with him P — The 
morning. 

1451. The morning of the polling day ;— Yes. 

1352. Tell us what took place ?— He told me if I gave 
him 4Z. he would vote our way. 

1353. When did you pay him?— The next day, I 

1354. After he voted?— Yes. 

1355. Robert Ferrier, what is he ?— A farm labourer. 

1356. When did you arrange with him ? — The morning. 

1327. What did you tell him?— He asked me what I 
woxdd give him. I gave him a sovereign ; nothing more 
than that. 

1328. (Mr. Turner.) That was before he voted?— 
I think it was, because I gave him instructions how to 
vote. f 

1359. (Mr, Eoll) You told him you would give him a 
sovereign if he voted for you ? — ^Yes. 

1360. You gave him instructions how to vote, and you 
gave him a sovereign? — He had promised; he came 
and wanted something before he went, and I gave it io 
him. 

1361. What did he say ?— I do not know. He might 
have said, " What are you going to give me ?*' I really 
cannot remember now. 

1362. John Young, what is he?— He is a farm 
labourer. 

1363. Where does he live?— St. Peter Street. 

1364. When did you arrange with him ?— I made no 
arrangement. He is always our way, and I psdd him 
next day I believe. It was not on that day. 

1865. You saw him before the polling day?— Yes. 



136^. What arrangemmit did you make with him then T 
None then, only that he would do as he did before come 
our way. * 

1367. Did you tell him you would give him anythinff » 
—Not then. ^^ 

1368. Did he ask for anything?— No. 

1369. He said he would do as he did before?-^ 
He would come our way ; he always voted our to 
before. 

1370. You gave him a sovereign ? — Yes. 

1371. But that was afterwards ?— Afterwards. 

1372. George Sacree, what is he?— He is a fam 
labourer ; a market gardening labourer. 

1373. Where does he live ?— Friars, Sandwich, 

1374. When did you arrange with him?— It mi^ 
have have been the day before, or that day, I camiot 
remember. 

1375. You agreed to give him 11. if he voted for ^ 
Liberals ? — Yes. 

1376. That was on the day of the election, or the day 
before?— Yes. 

1377. When did you pay him ?— A day or two after- 
wards ; about the next day, I expect. It might have 
been that day. I really cannot reooUect. 

1378. J. Spicer, what is he ? — A sailor. 

1379. Where does he live ?— Church Street, St. Mary, 
I believe. 

1380. Sandwich?— Yes. 

1381. I see you gave him 2L When did you anaoge 
with him ? — ^I think that was the morning. 

1382. The morning of the polling day ? — Yes. 

1383. What arrangement did you make ? — ^None. The 
same as others. He said he must have somethiiig as 
the others were all getting something on the other 
side. 

1384. What did you say?— I told him I would see 
what I could do. I think I gave him the money the next 
day. 

1385. He voted, and you paid him the next day?— I 
suppose so. 

1386. Why did you give him 2Z. ? — You gave Ferrier 
and Young and Sacree 11. each, why did you give him 
21. ? Had not he arranged that you should give him 22. ? 
— No. Some place more value upon their votes than 
others. It is really a thing I cannot possibly explain. 

1387. Had not you made some promise as to the 
amount you would give him ?— To Spicer ? 

1388. Yes ? — I do not recollect any. He has generally 
been our way, and he expects something. 

1389. (Mr. Turner.) But you give some men in the 
same position as he IZ., and you give him 21 ?— They 
asked for it, and I gave it to them to satisfy them. 

1390. [Mr. Boll) William Pidduck, 14Z. Who did 
you pay the 14?. to ?— To William Pidduck. 

1391. What arrangement did you make with him? 
When did you arrange with him? — On the polling 
day. 

1392. The morning of the polling day? — ^Yes. 

1393. What arrangement did you make with him?— I 
must have arranged before that, because he drove over 
very early in the morning. He fetched Baily. I did 
not know where Baily was. 

1394. Did you arrange what you would give him ?— 
No, he statea the sum on the polling day. I had 
arranged with him to fetch Baily, and as many others aa 
he could, the day before. 

1395. Did you tell him you would pay bim for doing 
it?— I did. 

1396. But you did not tell him how much ?— No. 

1397. You are sure of that ? — Quite sure. 

1398. Nothing was said about the amount ? — No ; he 
named the amount on the polling day. 

1399. Then on the polling day you say, early in the 
morning he drove over. When dia you first see him?— 
The day before. 

1400. I mean on the polling day ? — I saw In'm go oflf 
in his van that morning early. I did not speak to him. 
I was seeing about my own men, and saw him go 
away. 

1401. When did you arrange to give bim the 14i ?— 
When he asked me for it. 

1402. When was that?— The polling day. 

1403. When he brought Baily over ?— Then he said, 
" Here are so many men who will go our way, and tiiey 
** want so much.*' 



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1404. That was before they polled?— Before they 
polled. 

1405. He told you they wanted bo much ?— Yes. 

1406. How much did he say?— I think it was 31 a 
man, and 2L for himself for expenses. 

1407. They wanted 3Z. a man, and he wanted 21. for 
himself for expenses ?— Yes. He is a voter. 

1408. You gave him the 14L ?— I did, 

1409. To give to them a portion of it, and to keep the 
test himself ?— Yes. 

1410. Did you speak to either of the others, Baily, 
Burton, Drayson, or Smith ?— I might have canvassed 
them, but I had no particular promise from any of 
them. 

1411. Where were they brought over from?— There 
was only one brought. 

1412. BaOy was brought, and the other three men 
Hved in Sandwich ? — Yes. 

1413. Pidduck brought them up to poll ?— Yes. 

1414. Had you promised either of those four any- 
tiung ?— No. 

1415. I mean did all that occur take place between 
you and Pidduck ? — Yes. 

1416. There is Chaney Harrison IL, what is he?— He 
works in the brewery. 

1417. When did you arrange with him ? — I think it 
was after I paid him that. Mter the election, I think, 
I paid him that 11. 

1418. Wheu did you first speak to him about coming 
to vote ?— I do not think I made any arrangement with 
hinL I only canvassed him. He came and said he 
wanted something, and I paid him the next day 11. 

1419. You got this 60Z. the day before the polling day? 
—Yes, 

1420. Did not you arrange with him that you would 
give >iVTn something if he would come and vote for you ? 
—I do not remember making any arrangement with 
him. 

1421. What had you said to him about it?— -He may 
have asked me, the same as a good many more did, to do 
the best I ooxdd for him. 

1422. Did he say, ** Will jrou give me something?" — 
I do not remember seeing him particularly until after he 
polled. I must have seen him, because I canvassed him, 
but I do not remember seeing him until after he had 
polled, when I gave him something. 

1423. Then J. Easter ; what is he ?— The same as him ; 
he told me he meant voting our side. 

1424. But what is he?— A bricklayer. 

1425. Where does he live ?— I think St. Peter Sreet. 

1426. What arrangement did you make with him ? — 
No more arrangement than that 1 gave him a sovereign. 

1427. Had not you promised him anything, or had 
you not spoken to him oefore the polling day? — No, I 
canvassed him. 

1428. When you canvassed him, what did you say 
about giving him anything if he came up to vote ?— I 
cannot remember each individual case ; he, no doubt, 
asked me to do something for him. 

1429. Did you tell him that you would do something 
for him if he came and voted for your candidate ? — No 
doubt about it. 

1430. Is that the same with all of them ?— Yes. 

1431. Then William Deverson, 4Z. ; what is he?— A 
painter. 

1432. Where does he live? — At Eastry, near Sand- 
wich. 

1433. When did you arrange with him? — ^The day 
previous, I think. 

1434. What arrangement did you make? — That I would 
£pve him that amount. 

1435. That you would give him 4Z. if he would come 
fiuid Tote for you ? — He would not come without, he said 
^e could not walk in, and he should have that. 

1436. And you agreed to give him that? — Yes. 

1437. How far is where he lives from Sandwich? — 
-^bout three miles or thereabouts. 

1438. You agreed to give him U. if he would come in 
^ftzid vote ?— Yes. 

1439. You paid him ? — I paid him. 

1440. Thomas Mannings ; what is he ?— I suppose you 
oaUhim a carnage painter or builder, or wheelwright, or 

>»mfithing of thai sort. 

2UL Wheze does he live -—MiUwall Place. 



1442. When did you arrange with him?— I think l^JB.L.Colemtm. 
made no arrangement with him ; he came and asked me ' 

for a sovereign, and I gave it to him. . « Oct. 1880. 

1443. (Mr. Turner. ) After he voted ?— No. ' ^ •• - 

1444. Before he voted? — Before he voted, and he had 
half a sovereign afterwards. I paid him twice the 
money. 

1445. {Mr HoU.) When did you pay him the first, 
before he voted? — ^Yes. 

1446. How much was that ?— I cannot recollect now ; 
it might have been a sovereign. 

1447. You gave him one sovereign and a half sovereign, 
but whether you paid him a sovereign or half a sovereign 
before he voted you do not know ?— No. 

1448. The balance you paid him afterwards ?— Yes ; 
there was no bargain with him, he asked me for that 
amount, and I gave it to bim on each occasion. 

1449. You paid him one sovereign or half a sovereign 
before he voted ?— Yes, one or the other, I do not know 
which. 

1450. In order to get his vote ?— He came to me and 
said, " I am going your way, I am going to have a drop, 
" and I want half a sovereign or a sovereign," as the 
case might have been, and I gave it to him, and on the 
polling day he had the remainder. 

1451. Daniel Port 15«. ; he is the father of ihe other 
Port?— Yes. 

1452. When did you agree to give him 15«. ? — I made 
no agreement with him ; I gave him 5«. to go over and 
see his son ; he bothered me, and I gave bim b^l f a 
sovereign afterwards. 

1453. You gave him 15«. to go over and see his son to 
get his son to vote ? — Yes. 

1464. Did you say you would give bim anything if he 
agreed to vote for you ?— Port ? 

1455. I mean Daniel Port, the father?— Yes. 

1456. You made no distinct promise, but you told biTyi 
you would give him something ?— Yes. 

1457. And you gave him half a sovereign afterwards P 
—Yes. 

1458. Harry Walker ; when did you arrange with 
him ? — I gave him that after the election. 

1459. Did you arrange anything before hand ; when 
you canvassed him, what did you say?^There was 
nothing said then ; he came afterwards and said he must 
go the other way if we did not do something for bin). 

1460. He could not go the other way after he had 
voted ?— I canvassed him, and he came before polling 
and said that we must do something for binf^^ and I said 
I would. On that occasion I gave him nothing, but 
afterwards I gave him a sovereign. 

1461. He said he must go the other way unless you 
paid him something, and you said you would P — Yes. 

1462. Afterwards you paid bim a sovereign P — Yes. 

1463. William Burton; what is hep — A jobbing 
gardener. 

1464. When did you arrange with him ?— Before the , 
election some time. 

1465. Did you agree to give him IL if he wotdd vote 
for you ?— I made no promise of any particular sum. I 
said I would give him something if he would leave it 
tome. 

1466. You said you would give him a sovereign if he 
voted for your side P— Yes. 

1467. And after the election you gave him a sovereign ? 
—Yes. 

1468. Richard Gambrill ; what is he ? — A farm 
labourer. 

1469. When did you arrange with him ?— About the 
same time. 

1470. Before the following day ?— Yes. 

1471. What did you tell him ?— The same thing. I 
told him just the same. 

1472. If he would vote for you, you would give him 
something ? — Yes. 

1473. You gave him 2L, I see?— Yes. He was ill 
immediately afterwards, and he asked me if I could do 
something for him, and I gave him the 2Z. It was after 
the election I gave bim that. 

1474. You promised to give him something before?— 
I promised to do something for him, but nothing par- 
ticular. 

1475. Then William J. Deverson, what is he?— A 
carpenter. 

1476. Where does he live?— At Sandwich; he waa 
working this way at that time, . 



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B. X. CotmHom. 1477. When did you arrange mth him ?— The day of 

-^ the deotion. 

* Q ^^ 1880 », i47g^ What did you say to him ; that you would give 
""^■■"^ him IL if he voted for you ? — ^He said that would satisfy 
him ; he named the sum, and I gave it to him. 

1479. That was before he voted ? — No, afterwards. 

1480. What did you say to him before he voted ? — He 
asked me to do something for him, and I said I would. 

1481. Then after the election you gave him 21 ? — Yes. 

1482. I think you told me you received no other money 
besides that 402. and 502. ?— That is all the money I 
received. 

1483. To what other persons, besides those that you 
have mentioned in this list, did you agree to give any 
money? — There are numbers of them. 

1484. Have you got a list of them? — No. 

1485. I will trouble you to give me the names of each 
of them. How much did yon promise to give altogether 
in that way beyond those two sums which you paid to 
the public-houses, and the 512. you paid to these people 
you have mentioned to me ; beyond those sums, to what 
amount did you make promises? — I cannot tell you 
exactly just now. 

1486. As near as you can tell ?— A considerable sum, 
but I cannot tell you exactly. 

1487. You cannot tell me to what extent you made 
promises about?— I cannot tell you. 

1488. 150L or 2002. ?— Quite 1502. ; more than that I 

should ^^iTilr , 

1489. That was for promises that you made to other 
people to vote for you ? — ^Yes. 

1490. I suppose you stopped paying because you had 
not got any more cash ? — Yes. 

1491. (Hve me, as near as you can remembei^ the 
names and addresses of the different people to whom you 
made Ihose promises ? — If I had the list, I could pick 
them out. 

1492. {Mr. Twmer.) The list of what, the voters?— 
The register. 

1493. {Mr, HoU.) Take the register (handing eame)^ 
first go through the freemen, then go through the house- 
holders, teU us the names and addresses of all the people 
to whom you promised money for their votes, and how 
much you promised, as far as you can remember? — 
Bichara Ck>mey ; I made him no promise, but he expects 
something. 

1494. What is his address ?— Bowling Street, Sand- 
wich. 

1495. You made l^iwi no distinct promise, but you told 
him that you would give him sometning ? — ^I imagine he 
expects something, from knowing the man. 

1496. (Mr. Twmer.) But did you agree to give him 
anything? — I do not remember making any agreement 
with him. He was one I intended to have something. 

1497. (Mr. HoU.) Apart from any agreement, I do not 
mean an agreement to pay a specific sum of 12. or 22., 

, did you intunate to him that you woidd give him some- 
thing ? ^I do not remember canvassing him, but he was 

along with a lot more who voted our way, and they 
naturally suppose that they will not be forgotten. 

1498. Why should they naturally suppose that?— 
Simply because it was a thing they all did just at that 
time — all that class, or nearly all. 

1499. What class is he? — He is a labourer in a 
foundry. 

1500. And they all expected to be paid ?— Yes. 

1501. Tell us the next ?— There is another Deverson 
in the Chain. 

1502. What is his name ? — ^I do not know. There are 
so many William Johns and John Williams that I cannot 
tell the one from the other. 

1503. There is another Deverson living in the Ohain, 
the father of the other one ? — The father of both. 

1504. The father of both who are mentioned in this 
list?— Yes. 

1505. Did you promise to give him anything ?— No, I 
told his son that I would thiiuk of him. 

1506. Did you see him yourself ? — I do not think I 
saw the father. I tried to see hini, but I remember I 
could not find l^'m. I did not see him. 

1507. Who is the next ?—WilliamOato Kelly. 

1508. {Mr. Twmer.) Is he a freeman ?— Yes, he is a 
neeman. 

1509. (Mr. HoU.) He is a tanner?— Yes. 

1510. What did you promise him ? — ^I did not name 
any sum. I promised him I would not forget him« 



1511. You told him you would do something for bim 
if he voted for you ? — Yes. 

1512. Did he say he would vote for you on that 
promise ? — Yes, he did. 

1513. He accepted the offer?— There was no offer. 

1514. He accepted your suggestion, that you 'wonld 
do something for liim, and he said, ** Very Well, I wiD 
"vote for you"?— Yes. The next is James Fredeiid[ 
Stokes. 

1515. Where does he live ? — I believe Bamsgate now 
or somewhere near. He is a butcher, at Sandmch, in 
the register here. 

1516. What arrangement did you make with him?<-. 
82. I think, to the best of my recollection. 

1517. You promised to give him 32. ? — Yes. 

1518. Did he then agree to vote for you? — ^Yes. 

1519. Do you know whether he did vote ?— He polled. 
I come to the St Clement's Parish now. 

1520. You are now come to the householders ?— lee. 
Thomas Bailey, Sandown Boad. 

1521. What did you give him ?— 2/. 

1522. Did he say he woxdd agree to vote for your fdde ? 
— ^Yes ; he would have voted without. He said he wu 
disappointed upon the former election, that he had come 
from a distance, and made a long tale of it, so we patched 
matters up in that way. 

1523. Who is the next P— William Burton ; he expects 
another sovereign. George Dennard, Fisher Street. 

1524. What did you promise him ? — 12. 

1525. Did he agree to vote for you P— Yes. William 
Lawrence, Fisher Street. 

1526. What did you give him ? — There was nothing 
named ; I said we would do something for him. 

1527. Upon your telling him that you would do some- 
thing for him, did he agree to vote for the Liberals?— 
Yes. Abraham Mancer. 

1528. What did you agree to give him P— 12. 

1529. Did he say he would vote for you P — Yes. 
1580. Was that after you had promised him the 

sovereign? — ^Yes. William Overy, Sandown Boad; I 
gave the same promise to him ; nothing definite ; hnt 1 
promised I would do something for him afterwards. 

1531. Did he agree to vote for your pide ?— Yes, far 
our side. William Small, Fisher Sti-eet. 

1532. What did you agree to give him ? — 12. 

1533. Did he, upon that promise, agree to vote for 
you P — Yes. Edward Smithers, Church Street. 

1534. How much did you agree to give him ?— 22. 

1535. And did he agree to vote for youP—Yes. 
CJharles Turner, Church Street. 

1536. What did you agree to give him ?— 3^. 

1537. Did he agree to vote for you if you gave him 
that sum P— Yes. Now we come to St. Mary's ParisL 
John Ansell, Delf Street 

1538. How much did you agree to give him p— There 
was no sum fixed. 

1539. Did you tell him you would do something tot 
him P— Yes. 

1540. And then did he agree to vote for you P—Yes, 
he did. Daniel Birch. 

1541. What did you agree to give him P — There wm 
no sum fixed. 

1542. Did you promise to do something for him ?» 
Yes. 

1548. And he agreed to vote P— Yes. George Burlqrf 
Paradise Lane. 

1544. How much was he to have P — The same terms ; 
nothing was mentioned about the price. 

1545. You promised to do something for hini the same 
as the others P — ^Yes. Daniel Bushell, Bowling Street. 

1546. Was he to have any specific amount P — 1^ 

1547. Did he agree to vote upon your side upon yonr 
promising thatp — ^Yee. Grove Pnce Cock, Church 
Street. 

1548. What was the arrangement with him P— No 
arrangement above promising that something should be 
done. Thomas Hurst, Paradise Lane. 

1549. What arrangement was made with him?— 
Nothing beyond promising that something should be 
done. William Kemp, Butehery. 

1550. What arrangement was made with him P— No 
arrangement beyond promising that something should 
be done. William Lawrence, Butoheig^. 

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33 



1551. Was the same arrangement made with him ? — 
Yes, only a promise. Thomas Lawrence, Moat Sole, the 
nune with him. John Ledner, Choroh Street, the same 
arrangement with him, no snm was named. Henry 
Bevel, Strand Street, no arrangement, only a promise 
that something should be done. There is another Revel, 
I think John, Strand Street I met him at the Foundrv, 
but made no arrangement beyond that something should 
be done. William Bogers, Moat Sole; there are two 
Bogers at Moat Sole. 

1552. Give me the Christian name of each of them P— 
l^ey are both William Bogers ; nothing was stated with 
either of them beyond that they should have something 
afterwards. 

1553. The same arrangement was made with both P — 
Yes. One is siuoe dead. 

1554. Who is the next ?— -William Spain, Butts ; 
Thomas Tilman, Church Street ; George Town, Church 
Street ; and there is another Town, I think Jolm Town, 
Church Street also ; no sum was named, onlv a promise. 
Then we come to St Peter's Parish, Sandwich ; Bobert 
Box, Cattle Market, only a promise ; Thomas Booth, 
Butchery. 

1555. Was the same arrangement made with him P— > 
Yes. James Bragg, King Street 

1556. Was there the same arrangement with him P — 
Yes. Henry Chapman, Junior, Delf Street 

1557. The same arrangement with him p — Yes. 

1558. Were none of these specific arrangements P — 
None. Alfred East, 3 King's Yard and Short Street, 
ihe same arrangement, only a promise ; James Gisby, 
St Peter's Street, and £dward Gibbens, I missed him, 
St. Peter's Street ; and there was the same arrangement 
with him ; Henry Harris, Moat Sole, the same arrange- 
ment; Philip Holden, Moat Sole; William Holliday, 
New Street 

1559. Was the same arrangement made with them P-— 
Yes, the same arrangement Henry Hurst, Junior, 
Cattle Market 

1560. (Mr. Turner.) We have had him before I think P 
—No ; I think it was Hurst of Paradise Lane I gave you 
before; and I have missed Henry Hurst, the father. 
Moat Sole. Heniy John Kingsf ord. Moat Sole ; James 
Langtree, Cattle Market ; Frederick Lee and Joseph 
Lee, Strand Street and Delf Street; Edward Olliver, 
Friars ; James Shelvery, Cattle Market 

1561. Was the same arrangement made with each of 
these?— Yes. 

1562. K there be any specific arrangement vou wiU 
mention itP — Yes, I will do so. Henry Wells, New 
Street and Castle Street That is aU. 

1563. Are those all the persons that you can remember 
now P— Yes, those are all I can remember ; I may have 
missed one or two. 

1564. Are those the parties you alluded to, to whom 
you made promises amounting to 150^. P — Yes ; there 
may be more. 

1565. You have mentioned 49, besides those that you 
actually paid ? — There must be more than that I think 
I have missed some ; y6u cannot fix upon every person, 
ronning through like this. 

1566. These are all you can remember ? — Yes. 

1567. Did you pay, or promise to pay, any other 
person than those ^ou have mentioned, unless it be 
some few you have missed in going through the register ? 
— No, none. 

1568. Were there any other payments at fdl that you 
made, excepting those mentioned in these two lists ? — 
No other payments. There may be a Rhilling or two 
that escaped my notice. 

1569. Nothing that you can remember ? — ^No. 

1570. There were no othe^ promises to any persons 
or classes of persons, other than those mentioned, unless 
you have accidentally missed a few in going through the 
list?-No. 

1571. And no other moneys came into your hands, 
except what you have mentioned? — No, none whatever. 



« Oct 1S80. 



1572. Do you know of any other corrupt or improper B.L. Colemtm 
promise or promises beyond what you have told us of? 
— No, 

1573. Nonewhatever?— No, none whatever. 

1574. We have heard of 16 watchers ; were they 
nommated or chosen by you?— Yes, I think thev 
were. •^ 

1575. We understand that those persons were paid 11 
arpiece to watch some of the voters the night before the 
election ; who were the persons that they were to watch 
over ?--Our list being made up upon the supposition that 
they were safe, I thought we ought to keep our own 
ground, and to prevent the other side tampering with our 
men^ and, providing anyone was tampered with, I wished 
to know who it was ; I wished to know if any of them 
were visited during the night by any of the other aide. 

1576. Had ydu any specific reason for supposing that 
any of your men would be visited by the other mde in 
the night ?— Only that I know it is a thing that is done 
at times. 

1577. It would not be much more easy to visit them in 
the mght than in the day ?— The night before an election 
IS very valuable at times. 

1578. You do not know of any q)ecifio persons that 
you put these- people to watch over ; it was a general 
watching?— Yes, simply to protect our own. 

1579. Was it your suggestion, or whose suggestion 
was it?--I think it was mooted amongst us, and I 
adopted it I thought it necessary. 

1580. Of the 16 people appointed watchers, what 
class of people were they ; it seems a good deal to pay, 
and just look at the list and tell me generally what class 
of persons they are ?— Abraham Foord is a bricklayer, 
William Quested is a postman, Bowes Grey a baker's 
assistant, Kichard Gambrill a bricklayer, John Easter 
bricklayer, Henry Eevel farm-labourer, John Stokes 
baker's journeyman, William Spicer brewer's foreman, 
G. Cook is a tanner, George Bailey a publican, Charles 
White assistant grocer, and Thomas Booth jobbing 
gardener, Solomon Wood a farm-labourer, Henry Mantle 
my foreman, Allen, I do not know what he is, but about 
the same position as the others, a labourer of some 
description, aud Benjamin Pidduck jobbing gardener. 

1581. One cannot help seeing that 1^, to each of these 
men for watching that night is pretty nearly as much 
as most of them would get in a week?— They found 
no fault with the money. 

1582. It is a good deal more than they would usually 
gain in a day ?— Yea 

1583. And as much as they would earn in a week ?— 
Some of them would earn 30«. ; it would be robbing 
them of their night's rest 

1584. (Mr. Jeune.) 12 out of the 16 were voters? 

Yes. 

1585. (MrHoll.) You appointed them ?— Yes. 

1586. Did the fact of their being voters at all enter 
into your estimate of their value?— I think they had 
already promised in the canvass book. 

1587. Perhaps you thought it as well to watch over 
them ; was not that so ? — No, they were all safe men 
or I would not have trusted them witii the job. ' 

1588. Do you know anythiifg about corrupt practices 
or illegal acts upon the other side that you can tell us 
of ?--No, only what was patent to every one, the public- 
houses afiair. 

1589. They had a great many public-houses ?— Yes. 

1590. More than usual a good deal?— Yes, all thay 
could secure. ^^ 

1591. How many had they ?— i8, I think, but I will 
not be certain to one, but I am sure that is within one 
house. 

1592. (Mr. Turner.) That is for Sandwich ?— Yes. 

1593. (Mr Holl.) Was there anything else you heard 
of ?— Only that a voter came and said they gave money 
upon the other side, but they were very careful and 
would have no names mentioned. 

1594. Neither the names of those from whom the 
money came, or those that received it ?— No. 



Samubii Olds sworn and examined. 



1595. (Mr. Holl. ) I think you are a carriage and cab 
proprietor at Deal ?— Yes. 

1596. And you took an active part in the election, I 
thmk, m May last ?— I did. 

1597. Upon the Conservative sideP«-~On behalf of 
Sir. Boberts. 

Q3d34. 



1698. Who did you first see in connection with 
Mr. Roberts P—Mr. Roberts came down himself. 

1599. You were one of those who were present at the 

meeting when he came down upon the 4th of May ? I 

was not present at the meeting; I saw Tiim but I did 
not wait to attend the meeting. 



S. Olds. 



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SANDWICH BLBOWOH COMMISSION: 



8. 0U$. 1600, Prior to his coming down had yon taken any 

steps at all in connection wim the approaching election ? 

6 Oot 1880^ — As soon as I knew he was coming I went and engaged 
* ■ several pnbHc-honses for onr committee rooma 

1601. Was that before he came down? — The same 
night as he came down. 

1602. What time did he arrive here P—By the 6 o'clock 
train. 

1603. Had yon engaged any honses before he came, 
or did yon commence to do it immediately after his 
arrival ? — I commenced immediately he arrived. 

1604. Did yon have any commnnication with him in 
respect of it before yon did it P — I did it entirely npon 
my own acconnt. 

1605. Did yon arrive at the conclusion that it wonld 
be desirable to do it solely yourself or in concert with 
any other persons ; of course I do not mean ll^. Roberts. 
Did yon talk it over with any other leading Conservative^ 
in the place? — No, I took the whole responsibility 
myself. I engaged them as a preliminary. I merely 
questioned them whether I could have them if wanted. 

1606. You did not actually engage them that night P 
—No. 

1607. Before you went round to them did you discuss 
the propriety or advisability of doing it with any of the 
leadmg Conservatives here P — No, not with any one. 

1608. Upon that occasion you went round and entered 
into preliininaries with them P — ^Yes. 

1609. Upon that night what number did you enter 
into preliminaries withP — That night I should think 
about 20. 

1610. You did not, as I understand, that evening come 
to any arrangement with any of them ? — I merely asked 
them, could I have a committee room at the house, and 
what was the lowest price I could get it for during the 
election. I told them my object was to have a room if 
we wanted it, and the windows, and also the outside of 
the house for posting our bills. I got several who stated 

. they woxdd take 5^. ; five or six were agreeable to take 
5^., and I took that figure and offered the rest the same 
price. 

1611. You did not enter into any bargaining with all 
of them, but only with some of them ? — Only with some 
that night. 

1612. With how many do you think you bargained P — 
I should think I engaged about 20 that night. 

1613. Do you mean with each of those 20 you entered 
into a discussion as to what they would take ? — No, with 
some of them. I did not go into any discussion, but 
merely asked them whether we could have a room if it 
was wanted. 

1614. And with some you entered into a discussion as 
to what they would take ? — Yes, what was the lowest I 
could get them for. 

1615. You did not enter into any actual arrangement 
with any of them P — No, not that evening. 

1616. The next day what did you do ?~The next day 
I saw Mr. Hughes and we had some conversation about 
the bill posters. The bill poster wanted something like 
50^. for bill sticking. Mr. Hughes informed me that 
the bill' posting would cgme to a large sum, and I had 
better get as many houses as I could at that price, as he 
considered it very cheap. If I could get them at 5^. 
each I was to get as many as I could, and that tiiey were 
all to be paid one price. 

1617. He thought the bill posting would be more 
expense than taking the houses ? — Yes ; the houses were 
taken for posting our bills in the windows as well as for 
the purpose of the committee room. 

1618. You say that Mr. Hughes authorised or suggested 
that you shoxdd take as many as you could ? — Yes, and 
I went the next day and paid. 

1619. You told Mr. Hughes the price that some of 
them asked P — Yes ; some wanted 10^. and some wanted 
20?., but I took what I could at the hi. with no alteration 
whatever. 

1620. When did you actually engage tlie houses? — 
Upon the following day. 

1621. Upon the following day you engaged how many ? 
— ^I really caonot say, but tiie receipts are all returned. 
I engaged some the following day and some the |next 
day after. 

1622. Some upon the 5th and some upon the 6th ? 

Yes, upon the 5th and 6th I paid for those that I 
engaged, and I paid for the others as I engaged them. 

1623. Can you say how many you actually engaged 



npon the 5th? — ^I should think about 60 on the tbiee 
days. 

1624. How many did you engage npon the 5th?— I 
could not say, it is so long ago. 

1625. Was it 30, 40, or 50 P— I should thmk abont 20 
or 30 a day. The second day I paid as I went, and that 
occupied more time. 

1626. You think 30 upon the 5th and 30 upon the 6th p 
— I should say the average would be about 20 a day. 

1627. Did you engage them in Walmer ?— Yes, Deal 
and Walmer. 

1628. There were 71 in Deal and Wahner P— That 
would bring it to about 30 the second day perhaps and 
20 the third. " ^ ^ r-, 

1629. Was it 30 upon the 5th, 30 upon the 6th, and 
10 the next day ? — No, only about 20 the first day. 

1630. Including those you had spoken to upon the 
4th, how many did you actually engage and pay for 
npon the 5th, riiould you think p — I should say from 30 
to 40. 

1631. The 20 you bad spoken to the night before, and 
20 more p— Yes. 

1632. The others you would engage upon the following 
day, the 6th ?~Ye8. 

1633. They were all engaged upon either the 4th, 5th, 
or 6th P — Yes, upon those three days with one or two 
exceptions ; there were some that sent in to know why 
their house had been missed. 

1634. They were all engaged either w^n the day 
Mr. Boberts came down or npon the two following days ? 
— Yes, quite so. 

1635. You say there were some who sent in afterwards 
to know why their houses had not been taken ?— Yes, 
several ; and I referred them to Mr. Hughes, and he said 
we had got quite sufficient already. 

1636. But you did take some of those who sent in in 
that way ? — Yes, we took some of them. 

1637. I think the receipts you gave for them were all 
in the same form ? — Yes, all m the same form. 

1638. That receipt, I may take it, was drawn up by 
Mr. Hughes's clerk ?— No, it was drawn up by Mr. Spof- 
forth's clerk, Simmons drew them up and I paid the 
money. 

1639. Is that one of them [handing a documetU io iJie 
witness] ? — Yes, this is one of them. I think this is for 
the last one engaged. 

1640. They were all in that form ?--Yes. 

1641. All written out by Simmons for you to take 
to the diflFerent parties to sign? — No, many of them 
were written as we went to the different honses. 

1642. Simmons went round with you? — Yes, he 
went round with me. He wrote the receipt, and I paid 
the money. 

1643. Here is another (ha^iding a document io the 
witness) ; that is in the same form? — Yes. 

1644. In whose handwriting is that? — In Simmons' 
handwriting. I do not think the other is in Simmons* 
handwriting. 

1645. You made no distinction in the amount yon 
paid for the rooms, whether it was a beer-house or a 
large house ? — No, none whatever. 

1646. Can you give me the names of any of the 
houses where you say you bargained ? — Do you mean 
the night previous ? 

1647. Yes, or afterwards ?--The " Deal Castle " was 
one that came in afterwards to know why they had 
been left out. 

1648. I want to know whether you can tell me at 
which house you say you entered into any bargain; 
that is to say, at which of the houses you had any 
discussion as to the amount which they wonld accept. 
Did you not at the majority of the houses go round and 
offer them 5^. for the house without any question at all? 
—Yes, I asked them whether they would aocept that 

1649. You asked them whether they would accept 
6Z.?— Yes. 

1650. For a room ?— Yes, for a committee room when 
required, and for posting bills during the election, how- 
ever long it jn&y last, and that we should also be able 
to post our bills upon the outside of the house. 

1661. You did not make any bargain, did you, with all 
of them that you shoxdd be allowed to post biUs outside 
the houses ?— Yes, at most of them. I asked the ques- 
tion, if I wanted to stick a bill or two outside I suppose 
I could do it, and they said, yes, certainly. 

1652. With the majority of them you asked them if 



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HINUTBS OF BVIDEMOE. 



35 



they iroold take 6Z. for the ose of the room, and the 
right to stick up your bills?— Yee, if they would 
aooept it. 

1653. Who do you say are the people who asked 20Z. 
and lOZ. ?— The "Lord Warden," at Walmer. She 
wanted 20Z. She said she had been in the habit of 
having 20 guineas for a room, and a guinea a day for 
the use of it afterwards ; in fact, she said, at Swindon, 
where they came from, her bill came to 200/. 

1654. The "Lord Warden" is a largec hotel than 
most of them? — No, it is not a very large hotel, and 
very little trade to it. 

1655. Did any others ask for 101. or 20/. ?— The 
" Queen's Hotel " told me bl, was not sufficient. 

1656. Is that the "Queen's Hotel" in Deal?— Yes, 
I did not engage it ; they said it was not sufficient. 

1657. Is there any other that you can remember who 
asked for more than you offered ?— The " Cinque Ports " 
Arms at Walmer refused to take the 5/. 

1658. Did you take that house ?— No. 

1659. You did take a room at the " Lord Warden "— 
Yes, because they came down to the 5/. afterwE^ds. 

1660. Was there any other case like that?— At the 
"Queen Adelaide." They refused it, and accepted it 
afterwards. 

1661. Is there any other case of the same kind?— 
No, I do not remember any more. 

1662. At how many of these houses are you prepared 
to say that you ever actually had any meetings? — It 
happened to oe dne weather during the election, and we 
had a great many out-door meetings, otherwise wo must 
have gone to the rooms. 

1663. At how many of these housai will you actually 
gay you had any meetings ?— I really cannot say, but I 
thmk it was 14. 

1664. You think there were meetings at 14 of the 
houses? — ^Yes. At many of them the voters in the 
neighbourhood, seeing that it was a conmiittee room, 
went there and chatt^ amongst themselves. Many of 
the houses are very small, with small rooms not 
sufficient to hold very many. 

1665. You say, for meetings of the party 14 of these 
houses were used? — ^Yes, I think that was the number 
given, but some were used a great deal, some were used 
continuity every day. 

1666. Some of the 14?— Yes. 

1667. It is only some of the 14 that were used oon- 
tinnaUy ? — ^Eveiy day a man or a boy went round and 
changed the bills. He would take down the bills and 
replace them, and there were pens, ink, and paper 
placed in the rooms all ready in case any of the com- 
mittee shoxdd drop in. 

1668. {Mr. JmiTie.) How many meetings were there 
during tiie election altogether. . How many meetings 
did Mr. Orompton Roberts have?— I really could not 
say ; three or four of a night. Sometimes there would 
be a meeting at Deal, another at Walmer, and another 
at Sandwich, and another at Upper Deal as well. 

1669. (Mr. Holl.) The real truth is that in the case of 
the great majority of these houses the rooms were much 
too small to have a meeting in ? — Yes, and being fine 
weather we had open-air meenings. We had open-air 
meetings at Upper Deal, and so we did at Walmer. 

1670. At these houses do you say you placarded bills 
upon the outside ?— At many of them. The * * Roxburgh 
Castie " was placarded with bills. 

1671. Which of the houses will you undertake to say 
were placarded outside ? — I should think nearly all of 
them nad a bill or [a couple of them on the outside. 
Some of the bills had a large blue cross with o-u4 
written under, crossing Mr. Roberts out with blue 
paint. 

1672. How many do you say of the houses you 
engaged were actually placarded outside with Con- 
servative bills? — I really cannot sav, but I should think 
^ijcarly all of them ; even the large hotels were plastered 
^vith bills. 

1673. I am not speaking of bills in the windows, but 
*^^utside ? — ^Yes ; even the large hotels had bills plastered 
^^utside. 

1674. You think that the great majority of them had 
^^^Dne or two bills upon the outside as well as inside ? — 

^^es. We had the liberty to do so if we felt inclined. 

1675. I wanted to know to what extent you had 
'^^ivailed yourselves of that privilege, and whether it was 
^^^^^nB&ily more than a small number that were actually 

^T^suaoded with bills outaide?— Being all exhibited in 



the windows the rain would not wash them o£^ and 
they wcudd not get torn. It was better than posting the 
bills upon the outside of the houses. 

1676. That may be ; although you had the bills in the 
windows at most of these houses, is it not the fact that 
only at a few of them bills were placarded upon the 
outside of the house ?— I really could not say to what 
extent bills were placarded upon the outside, but I 
should think at nearly all of them. 

1677. You and Mr. Sinmions between you managed, 
as I understand, the whole of the engaging and paying for 
the houses ?— -Yes, I paid for them, and Mr. Simmons 
wrote the receipts. 

1678. Altogether you received what for houses?— I 
really cannot recollect now. The receipts are all 
returned. 

1679. I want to know how much money you received ? 
— I could not say. 

1680. Did you not make any memorandum of the 
amounts that you received from time to time ? — I did 
have some Hste, but when the election was over I 
destroyed them aU. I really had very little to do with 
it, because Mr. Hughes had the whole control. All 
bills, and so on, were returned to liiTn with the 
receipts. 

1681. I am not speaking of receipts or bills ; this 
was money that you distributed. Did you receive the 
money that you paid the houses with in cash? — Sim- 
mons first gave it to me. The receipts will tell you 
what money I had. 

1682. How much money did you receive for the pay- 
ment of the public-houses ? — ^I really could not say. 

1683. What money did you receive altogether P— I re- 
ceived it from Simmons and I paid it out of the bag 
until it was all gone. We had a certain portion every 
day given to us, and receipts were returned to show the 
amount of money expended. 

1684. Did you take the money in gold P— Yes. 

1685. You took a bag of gold round with you P— Yes. 

1686. And paid out of that bag P— Yes. 

1687. (Mr. J mine.) Was the money given to you to pay 
these houses ? — It was given to me to pay through 
Simmons. 

1688. That is to say it was given to you by Simmons ? 
—Yes, I was to go with Simmons and see that they 
were paid, and returned the receipts for the money. 

1689. When was that; after the polling P— No, the 
the following day. 

1690. After the polling ?— No, they were paid for at 
once when we engaged them. 

1691. Every morning you had so much money put at 
your disposal by Simmonds P — Yes. 

1692. How much each day P — I really do not know, I 
did not count it. 

1693. (Mr. Holl.) Upon the first day you got two sums 
of 150Z. and 120Z., making 270L P— That would be about 
it, 

1694. And upon the same day you got one sum of lOOZ. 
and another sum of 20Z., making altogether 390Z. P — No 
doubt that is correct. 

1695. 71 houses at 61 each would be 355L ?— Yes, 
and the balance would be returned with the receipts at 
the end of each day. 

1696. (Mr. Jeuim.) The total was 355^. for the houses p 
— That would be about it, I had to return a sum of 
money to Mr. Hughes, the agent. The money came from 
Mr. Hughes. 

1697. (Mr. Holl) There are 68 5Z. receipts, which gives 
340Z., and then there is the " Royal" Hotel, 20^. ; have 
you kept no account of the money that you received or 
paid away for the houses p — I returned the balance, what- 
ever it was, every night to the agent with the receipts. 

1698. That was to Mr. Hughes P— Yes, 

1699. Or did you return it to Simmons p — Simmons 
and me together returned to Mr. Hughes the balance 
that was not expended. , 

1700. Do I understand that some portion of this 390Z. 
which you received upon accoimt of committee rooms 
was returned ? — Yes. 

'1701. Can you tell me what amoui;it was returned? — ^I 
really cannot from memory, it is so long ago. 

1702. You kept no account, as I understand you, 
beyond returning the receipts, and what amount of 
money you returned to Mr. Hughes you cannot tell ? — 
No, I really cannot from memory. 

1703, Did you oat of the money you received on 



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6 Oct I860. 



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SANDWICH ELATION COMMISSION; 



S'. Old$. account of the boui^es have or retain any money beyond 

! which you returned receipts for ?— None. % 

6 Oct. 188J. 1704. Did you expend any of that money upon any- 
— — thing else except the houses ? — Nothing. 

1705. lam keeping this separate from some money 
that you afterwards received in respect of canvassers ; 
whatever money that was left over and above what you 
paid for the hous^ and returned receipts for, I under- 
stand you to say you returned to Mr. Hughes ?— Yes. 

1706. You did not eiroend any portion of. that money 
for any other purpose than the houses ? — No, nothing. 

1707. Can you remember whether you returned any 
amount ? — I know there was an amount returned. 

1708. Do you remember what it was, 51, or lOL, or 
whether it might have been as much as 30Z. or 40Z., that 
you returned upon the two days ?— For the two d^ it 
would be principally expended I think, but at the finish 
there was somethLig, 20L or 30L, handed back; that is 
as near as I can think of it. I am not positive as to the 
amount, but I know there was a sum handed back. 

1709. A sum was handed back to Mr.. Hughes out of 
what you received on account of committee rooms ? — 
Yes. 

1710. You received money also on account of the 
canvassers ? — Yes. 

1711. I see you received cme sum of 36L, another of 
90Z., then 30L, and again 90Z. P— Yes. 

1712. I suppose you kept an account of the money 
you received on account of the canvassers ?— No, I did 
not ; I merely took it and paid them and returned the 
receipts. 

1713. Have you returned receipts for all you paid to 
the canvassers ? — ^Yes, all of them. 

1714. They would be amongst the vouchers ? — Yes. 
1716. To whom did you return the vouchers for the 

canvassers ? — To Mr. Hughes. 

1716. You have got a list, of course, of the canvassers 
you employed ?— No, after the election I had a few 
papers and lists, but I destroyed them all, thinidng they 
would be of no use. 

1717. How many canvassers did you employ? — I 
think 41. 

1718. Didyoupay them all?— Yes. 

1719. I see there are payments to a number of other 
persons under the head of canvassers, did not Axon pa;f 
some of the canvassers, because I find sums of 9L, 18Z., 
and 9L, making together 36Z.,paid to Axon for can- 
vassers? — He would be in anoftier district. I do not 
think I paid Axon. 

1720. I am not asking you that, I am asking you 
whether you paid all ibe canvassers for Deal and 
Walmer, or whether many of them were paid by others ? 

^ . —Some would be paid by others, and some by me. 

1721. Did you engage the canvassers? — ^No, Mr. Hughes 
generally. 

1722. Who nominated them ?— They were principally 
nominated by Mr. Hughes, but some by me. 

1723. Just look at that lot of vouchers (handing a 
bundle of papers) f and tell me whether you find there any 
of the vouchers ihat you spoke of in respect to the 
canvassers that you employed? — This first gentleman 
has nothing to do with me. 

1724. That I concluded, but run your eye over each 
paper and see whether you find there the vouchers that 
you speak of in regard to the canvassers, the first gen- 
tleman has obviously nothing to do with you. because 
it is for boards and board boys ; look at the others and 
see whether you find there me vouchers you have been 
speaking of ? — The top man on the first sheet, Barnes, 
is a canvasser, but none of the othera 

1725. I am asking you to look through the papers 
and tell me whether you find there the vonchers you 
have been speaking of m regard to the canvassers ? — No, 
I paid none of these. 

1726. You say you employed 41 canvassers? — Yes. 

1727. How ftiany days were they each of them em- 
ployed ? — They started from the 4th up till the time of 
the election being over. 

1728. They could not have started upon the 4th 
because Mr. Roberts never came down till 6 o'clock on 
the 4th ? — They were set on directly, some of them were 
set at work the following day, the 5tii. 

1729. You had 41 canvassers altogether ?— Yes. 

1730. They were not all employed, I suppose, the 
whole time ? — ^Yes, nearly ; some of them gave the whole 
of their time. Some of tiiem are piLots» and they gave 



up their turn at sea and stayed at home. The Qibuwm 
came on upon the 18th, and they were emnlov^ fwx^v 
the 5th tiU the 18th. f yea irom 

1731. How many canvassers will you undertake to sav 
were employed so many days ?— I should say some wero 
employed from 12 to 13 days, and some 10 days. 

1732. Do you mean to sav there were 41 employed 
for 10 days ?— Yes, very nearly, and some more. 

1733. Beginning upon the 5th, and taking ont the 
Sundays, because there would be two Sundays you 
cannot get more than 10 days ?— I should think it would 
be about 10 days. 

1734. That would be as regards some of them, because 
you do not represent that the 41 were employ^ for ten 
days each of them ?— They were employed nearly the 
whole of the time. 

1735. How many were employed upon the 5th, for 
instance ?— I really cannot say from memory, but they 
were all selected in about a day or so, and set to work. 

1736. How much did you pay them a day?— They 
were not paid by the day. 

1737. How were they paid ?— They were paid 6i. each. 

1738. Do you mean that you paid 41 men 6^. each?— 
Yes. 

1739. Of course you can give the names of those men? 
— I really cannot fiom memory. 

1740. I must trouble you to refresh your memory; 

Sou would not pay 62. to 41 men without knowing who 
iey were ? — You have the vouchers. 

1741. No, we have no vouchers? — The names haxe 
been returned. 

1742. I must ask you to give us the names?— I could 
not do it from memory. 

1743. Have you got the receipts for the^ amount that 
you paid ? — I returned them to Mr. Hughes. 

1744. When was that ? — Directly they were paid. 

1745. You mean the receipts for all these 41 men ?— 
Yes. 

1746. Were they stamped receipts ? — ^Yes. 

1747. Separate receipts for each person ? — Yes. 

1748. Forty-one receipts ?— Yes, and they were put in 
at the time of the petition, I think. 

1749. You are speaking of Deal and Walmer?— Deal, 
Walmer, and Sandwich. 

1750. Did you employ the canvassers for Sandwich?— 
Yes. 

1751. Let me understand you so that there may be no 
mistake ; do you mean that 41 canvassers were employed 
for Deal, Widmer, and Sandwich ? — Yes. 

1752. For those three places ?— Yes. 

1753. That you are quite sure about ? — Yes. 

1754. I do not want you to be confused, or to mislead 
you in any way ; you are sure that 41 canvassers were 
employed for those three places — Deal, Walmer, and 
Sandwich ? — ^Yes. 

1755. Were there any other canvassers to your know- 
ledge employed at either of those three places by any- 
one ? — Not that I am aware of. 

1756. Did you employ any other canvassers besides 
these 41 ?— No. 

1757. As I imderstand it, what you did was to employ 
41 persons for Deal, Walmer, and Sandwich, and that 
each of those persons that you employed was paid a 
lump sum of 6L ? — Yes ; they were not all paid by me ; 
some were paid by Mr. Hughes himseU^ I think. 

1758. I should like to know how that is ; how was it 
you said just now that you gave him receipts for the 
whole ? — I gave him receipts for what I paid. 

1759. I have it down here in Mr. Hughes' return, 
under your name, "Paid to Olds 36^., 90Z., 90L, and 
80^ on account of canvassers," making in all 2462., aod 
41 canvai^seii; at GL a head would be 246Z., so that those 
four sums which are retomed as paid to you would 
exactly cover the 41 canvassers at 6Z. a head ?^Yes» that 
is so. 

1760. Are you sure that you did not employ any other 
canvassers P — I did not. . 

1761. Were there any canvassers employed to your 
knowledge by the day P — Not that I aiii aware of: 

1762. Either at Deal, Walmer, or Sandwich ?— Not 
that I am aware of ; they may have been employed by 
Mr. Hughes, and not come to my knowledge. 

1763. You had the management of the canvassing 
department, had you not p— Merely the paying of them, 
nothing further. 



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1764. Did you select the men for canvassing ?— A 
great manj of them. 

1765. But not all?— Some were suggested to Mi*. 
Hnghes by others, and some weire selected by me, but 
Mr. Hughes had the whole oontroL 

1766. You know of no other canvassers excepting 
those you mentioned P — No. 

1767. At either place?— No. 

1768. As I understand you, you returned the 41 
receipts to Mr. Hughes ?— Yes. 

1769. That you are sure of P— Yes, quite. 

1770. Have you never seen them since ? — I have never 
seen them since. 

1771. Did you receive a sum of 36/. from Mr. Hughes ? 
—I might have done, but I really cannot tell the amounts, 
because I have no books or papers to guide me. I re- 
ceived various sums from mm, and returned him an 
account of what I had done with them. 

1772. He has returned yoa as receiving 36?., do you 
remember whether you received that or not P That is 
the first sum you are returned as receiving, and the fol- 
lowing day, or the same day, you are returned as receiv- 
ing 902. P— Yes, I think that is right. 

1778. Then a day or so afterwards, or, at all events, 
shortly afterwards, you are returned as receiving two 
farther sums of SOL and 90Z. P— I believe I did. 

1774. Making in all 246L P— Yes. 

1775. Then two days before the election, or just before 
tiie election, you received another sum of 60/., of which 
you returned on account of houses 17Z. 10«., leaving 
42L 108. more for canvassers, and making a sum total of 
288/. lOff. ; did you receive those sums P— I have no 
doubt it is correct, but I cannot speak from memory. 

1776. I want you to tell me what you did with the 
difference between the 2467. and the 288Z. IO9. ; there is 
a Bom of 42/. 10«. over and above the amount which you 
say you paid the 41 canvassers P — I really cannot say 
what balance there was, but I always returned it. 

1777. He puts down to your debit 60/., less returned 
for houses 17/. IO9., leaving a balance of 42/. lOg., and I 
want you to tell us what you did with that amount ? — I 
camiot recollect. 

1778. Unless Mr. ^ughes has erroneously represented 
as paying you a sum which you did not receive of 
42/. 10«. more than you accounted for, what has become 
of it P — I have no recollection of it. 

1779. Do you mean that you have no recollection of 
receiving it, or how you spent it ? — I have no recollec- 
tion of receiving it, unless it would be for carriage hire. 

1780. No. that is paid separately — 77/. Do you repre- 
sent that this statement of Mr. Hughes' that you re- 
ceived 288/. 10^. in the sums I have mentioned, namely, 
36/., dOL, two 90/., and a sum of 60/., is incorrect, 
deducting, of course, the 17/. 10«. whicH you returned 
on account of houses ? — The houses would be right, but 
I have no recollection of this 42/. 10«. 

1781. Do you remember receiving 60/., of which you 
returned 17/. 10«. on account of houses ?— Yes. 

1782. If you received 60/., and returned 17/. 10«. on 
account of houses, you mtist have received the ^l lOg. ? 
— ^I know that I had the balance in hand, and I kept it 
for some little while, because I was busily engaged and 
could not go through the accounts ; but I went through 
them afterwards, and returned to Mr. Hughes a balance 
of SOL or 40/. 

1783. When did you return him this 30L or 40L P— I 
should think it would be a day or so after the election ; 
perhaps it might be for change of a cheque. 

1784. No. He charges you with it on account of 
canvassers, independently of the houses altogether ; less 
the 17L 10«., which you returned on account of Uie 
honses, there is a balance unaccounted for of 42L 10«., 
and I want to know what you did with that srmi of 
money P — I really cannot recollect for the moment. 

17^. If you received 42L 108, surely you ought to be 
sbleto tell us whetheryou spent it, put it in your pocket, 
or returned it to Mr. Hughes ? — I really cannot, it is so 
long ago. 

1786. 42L 10«. is an amount that you ought to be able 
to account for ? — I cannot, unless I paid it in addition to 
the canvassers ; some of them had 10/. ; an extra 4L 
was given to some of them. 

1787. We have not heard of that before P — Some of 
them had an addition of 4L 

1788. Who were they ; how many had an additional 
^Z ?— I should say about 13 or 14 of them. 



1789. You say positively that 13 or 14 had an ad- 
ditional 4/ ?— Yes. 

1790. Had you any receipt for that ? — Yes ; they were 
all returned to Mr. Hughes. 

1791. Do you mean to tell us that you had receipts 
from 13 or 14 of the canvassers for 41. m addition to the 
6L ?— Yes, making it lOL • 

1792. Why did you not mention that before ?— I did 
not think of it. 

1793. You said you paid them 6/. each?— Yes, so I 
did ; that was the first instalmenji. 

1794. Was it one receipt for the 61, and one for 4-L, 
with regard to these 13 or 14 ?— Yes. 

1795. Did they each give two receipts, one for 6L and 
one for 4L P — Yes, two receipts. 

1796. Were those receipts returned to Mr. Hughes 
too P — Yes, an account was given to him. 

1797. For the 4L each as well P— Yes. 

1798. I understand you to say that you returned to 
Mr. Hughes 41 receipts for the canvassers for 6L each, 
and some 12, 13, or 1^ receipts from the canvassers for 
4L each P — Yes, 4L each ; it may be 10 or 11 ; I cannot 
s^ exactly the number, but there were some few that 
Mr. Hughes recommended to have 4L additional, as they 
had worked very hard. 

1799. I am not particular whether it be 10 or 12, but 
I understand you to say there were 10 or 12 at least to 
whom you paid 4L extra, and in respect of that payment 
you took a separate receipt from them, and returned 
those separate receipts of 4L from each c^ the parties to 
Mr. Hughes p— Yes. 

1800. That you are clear about?— A receipt went 
back for them all ; *it might be that there was a separate 
list of those who had been recommended by Mr; Hughes 
to have 4/. extra. 

1801. Do you say that there were some recommended 
by Mr. Hughes to have 4/. each extra P — Yes ; and he 
commissioned me to give it to them ; that is the only 
way I can account for it, and I believe that is where the 
40/. went. 

1802. What did you mean by saying just now that the 
day after the election you returned to Mr. Hughes 30L 
or 40/, P— The day after the election we balanced up, 
and I was thinking whether he might have taken it 
then. 

1803. I do not follow you, because there is a broad 
distinction between paying 41 people 6/. each and pay- 
ing Mr. Hughes a lump sum of 40L ? — I thought I 
might have returned it the day after the election, but I 
thmk it was laid out the canvassers. 

1804. Forgive me, because I do not follow you ; what 
gave you the idea that you had returned Mr. Hughes 
40L if you had never done it? — You stated that there 
was 40L debited against me by Mr. Hughes, and my im- 
pression was that if I had 40L I returned it to him the 
day after the election. 

1806. It is not a thing that you would have any doubt 
about ; if you returned a man 40L surely you would 
remember it ?— I do not say that I did. 

1806. Could yo:a have the least doubt about such a 
thing one way or the other? — It is my impression, if I 
had had it I should have returned it to him. 

1807. One can imagine quite well, if a person had 
money belonging to another person he would return it, 
but what made you say you had .an impression on your 
mind that you had returned it, if you had not ? — I had 
no impression that I had done so, but only if I had had 
any money I should have done so. 

1808. I rather understood you to say that you had an 
idea in your mind that you had returned him the day 
after the election SOL or 40L ; did you make him any 
such return ? — No, I did not I understood you to say 
that there was 40L debited against me by Mr. Hughes, 
and I said, if I had 40L in hand I should have returned 
it to him the day after the election, but now I have 
accounted for the 40L, and where it went 

1809. I may take it now that the idea that you might 
have returned him SOL or 40L if you had it in your hands 
was wrong ? — It was not so. 

1810. You say that you paid this 40L, or whatever the 
amount may be, to some 10 or 12 canvassers, in addition 
to the 6L?— Yes. 

1811. And you did it at Mr. Hughes' suggestion or 
recommendation ? — Yes. 

1812. What reason was there for paying these 10 
people 4L in addition?— They had worked very hard, 
and some of them had given up their business altogether, 



5. Olds. 
« Oct. 1880. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION 



6\ Olds, and 6^. was considered not sufficient to pay them for their 

time. 

6 Oct. 1880. 1813. Had there been any arrangement to pay them 
' 61, each? — Mr. Hughes made the arrangement to pay 

them. 

1814. You did not make any arrfmgement with them ? 
— ^No, the arrangement was made with Mr. Hughes. 

1815. Was that arrangement made when they were 
first employed ? — Yes, if they worked well ; they were 
to have lo£ if we won and 61. if we lost. 

1816. Do I understand that that was the arrangement 
actually 'made with them when they were employed? — 
Yes. ' 

1817. Who made that arrangement with them ? — I do 
not know. I think it was myself. 

1818. You think you made an arrangement with them 
that they should have 101. if you won ? — Yes ; that is, 
the working committee ; the parties that worked the 
most. 

1819. Was that arrangement made with the canvassers ? 
— Yes, with the canvassers. 

1820. Was that arrangement mftde with the 41 can- 
vassers ? — No, not with me 41 ; about 10 or 11 of them. 

1821i You say you made that arrangement yourself ; 
if you won they were to have 10/. a-head, and if you lost 
only 6Z. ?— Yes. 

1822. Give me the names of the parties with whom 
you made that arrangement? — I think you have the 
names all there. 

1823. No, I have not indeed ; who were the ten persons 
with whom you made the arrangement ? — I cannot 
recollect the names now. 

1824. You must be able to recollect some of them, 
you say they were the principal men amongst the can- 
vassers; and tell me who they were? — ^I can hardly 
recollect, because it is so long ago. 

1825. Pray forgive me for suggesting that it is not a 
• lau^iing matter. These people are in the town, and 

you must know the leading men amongst the canvassers 
at an election which took place only four months ago ? — 
I could not be positive who the parties were to whom I 
gave the money to, now. 

1826. I am asking you with whom it was you made 
the arrangement ? — I told them generally ths^ if they 
worked well there would be lOL if we gained the cause. 

1827. But you said just now it was not generally? — 
There were not more than about 10 or 11 there at the 
time when the arrangement was made. 

1828. Tell me who some of them were. You have a 
double opportimity of remembering them, because in the 
first place you made the arrangement with them, and in 
the second place you paid them ; surely you must know 
with whom you agreed to pay lOZ. a piece, and in the 
second place you must remember to whom you paid 
lOZ. ? — H I had my book I could tell you. 

1829. If you did it at all surely you must be able to 
give me the names, and I must trouble you • to tell me 
the names, you may have a little time to think over it 
if you Uke, but you must be able, if you choose to do so, 
to tell us what became of this money P-^Mr. Spears was 
one. 

1830. What Spears is that, William Henry Spears or 
William Frost Spears ?— William Henry Spears. 

1831. He had 101 you say, instead of 6Z. ?— Yes. 

1832. Do you say tiiat you made the arrangement you 
have spoken of wifli him ?— Yes, I told him there would 
be 101, if they worked weU and we gained the cause. 

1833. Who else had 10/. ?— William Mackie. 

1834. Who are the others ?— Walter Solomon, I think 
he was one. 

1835. (Mr, Turner,) Was it the same Spears who was 
concerned in the posting, poles, cordage, and so on ? — 
No, the brother I ^hinV^ 

1836. {Mr. HolL) Now who were the others who had 
lOZ. ? — ^Benjamin Wood was one. 

1837. That is four out of the ten, who were the others ? 
—I reaUy cannot think of them— you see it was just at 
the busy time, and I cannot carry their names in my 
head. 

1838. You cannot suppose that anyone would imagine 
that you cannot tell us who the other six were ? — I will 
try and think by to-morrow, one was named Jones. 

1839. What is his Christian name ? — I really do not 
know that. 

1840. Where does he live ?— In Beach Street. 

1841. RobertWilliam Jonesisit?— Yes. 



1842. Wl^t is he P— He keeps a public-hoiiBe. & 



licensed victualler. 

1843. That is five, now we want five more. Did any 
of those five that you have mentioned have more than 
4Z. a piece ? — No, not that I am aware of. 

1844. Who are the other five P— I am blest if I can 
recollect, I cannot really. I think one was named 
Balph. 

1845. What Ralph is that?— J. J. Ralph. 

1846. That makes six, who are the others ; if you think 
of the leading men I daresay you will think of the 
names easily enough? — There were some selected by 
Mr. Hughes, his selections were principally the leading 
men, but I cannot recollect the names because you see 
they mixed the conmiittees so. 

1847. These are canvassers that you paid yourself 
and surely you must remember the names ?— It is four 
months ago. 

1848. Yes, but this was an election in which you took 
an active part, and you took the management and pay- 
ment of the canvassers, and surely you can recollect the 
leading men to whom you paid 41 a piece extra ?— I had 
not the management of them. 

1849. You paid them at any rate ?— Yes, I paid them. 
I think one was Wise. 

1860. Is that J. J. Wise or J. Wise ?— It was J. J. Wise. 

1851. What is he ?— He is living retired. 

1852. Where ?— At Upper Deal. (See Q. 1959.) 
1858. That makes seven ; who were the other three, it 

IS a pity to take up time if you can think of the names? 
—One was Wilds of the *' North Star. " 

1854. Robert Wilds ?— Yes. 

1855. That makes eight?— I cannot really recollect 
the others, but I may between this and to-morrow. 

1856. Let us know by to-morrow morning whether 
there are two or more to whom you paid 4L extra ?— I 
will do so, but it is impossible to speak from memory, 
as I have got no books or papers, and it is impossible to 
tax your memory four months back. 

1857. A gentleman who pays the canvassers can easily 
recollect the leading men tliat he paid. I see that 
considerable other sums are charged for canvassers, for 
instance Axon 9Z., 18Z., and 9Z., making 36Z. altogether, 
do you know what he did with that P — That came from 
the Walmer committee room, and I liave nothing to do 
with it. 

1858. The canvassers that you employed were employed 
for Deal, Walmer, and Sandwich ?— Yes. 

1859. You do not know of any other canvassers being 
employed ? — There were many employed as messengers 
in the committee room. 

1860. I am not speaking of messengers ; there were a 
good many volimteer canvassers ? — Yes. 

1861. Were there any people employed by Axon as 
canvassers ? — I do not know Axon. 

1862. There were two sums entered as paid to the 
Sandwich canvassers, 20Z. and 12L ; do you know any- 
thing of those sums ? — Yes. 

1863. Did you receive those two sums of 20Z. and 12^ ? 
Yes. 

1864. To whom did you pay that ?— I paid it to three 
canvassers there. 

1865. Who were they ? — Mr. Hughes was one. 

1866. What is his Christian name? — ^I do not re- 
member his Christian name. ' 

1867. What is he?— A grocer. 

1868. In what street does he live ? — Strand Street, I 
think. 

1869. Who were the other two ? — Hooper was another. 

1870. Where does he Hve? — He is a com factor at 
Sandwich. 

1871. Who was the other?— Giles. 

1872. What is his Christian name ? — ^I do not know. 

1873. What is Giles?- I think he is a builder at 
Sandwich. 

1874. How much did you pay to each of them ? — They 
had 10/. a piece. 

1875. This sum comes to 32?., and you say they hati 
10?. each, or was it that one of them had 12?. These 
are different, I suppose, from the 41 canvassers? — ^No, 
they are part of the 41. 

1876. We have already got 6?. being paid to each of 
the 41 out of the 246?. ?— Yes, I think the 41 does not 
include these three from Sandwich. 

1877. I particularly asked you whether the 41 was for 



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Deal, Sandwich, and Wahner, and yon said Tea two or 
thiee times over? — I supposed they were ; perhaps Mr. 
Enghes has omitted to enter those. 

1878. What is your present impression, are these three 
included in the 41 or not P— I think not. 

1879. You had 41 for Deal and Walmer, and three for 
Sandwich besides P — Yes, 

1880. You paid these three lOZ. each ?— Yes. 

1881. What became of the other 2L ?— I gave it to 
Mr. Hughes, and I do not know what he did with it. 

1882. Are you sure you returned him 2Z. ? — I do not 
mean Mr. Hughes the agent, but Mr. Hughes at Sand- 
wich. 

1883. Then Hughes had 12L, Hooper lOZ., and Giles 
102. ?— Yes, lOi. each. The money was paid to Hughes 
to pay the others. 

1884. Hughes had the whole 32L ?— Yes. 

1885. Do you say that that was paid to them for 
canvassing ? — Yes. 

1886. Now, was not that money given to Hughes to 
distribute as he might think most advisable for the 
election ?--No, it was given to pay the canvassers. 

1887. {Mr, Turner,) You mean the other two men and 
himself?— Yes. 

1888. (Mr. Holl) Were there any other canvassers 
besides these three?— They might have employed some, 
but I do not know ; there was a committee there with 
nothing to do. 

1889. Did you get any receipts P— I had a receipt for 
the money. 

1890. From whom ?— From Mr. Hughes. 

1891. Have you got it here P— No, I have destroyed it. 
I destroyed all the papers at the end of the election. 

1892. You do not mean seriously to tell us that? — 
The receipt Mr. Hughes would have, but I»say all the 
accounts I destroyed. 

1893. I ask you about the receipt ?— The agent would 
have that. 

1894. Do you mean positively to tell us that yqu re- 
• tnmed to Mr. Hughes a receipt for 32Z. from Hughes at 

Sandwich? — ^Yes, Ifii, Hughes would have the receipt 
for that, 121, at one time, and 102. on two different 
occasions. 

1895. Was it one 102. or two lOZ. ?— One lOZ. and 122. 

1896. That is only 222., and the amount was 322. ; you 
told me that you gave each 102., then you said that you 
paid the whole to Mr. Hughes, and he paid the others, 
and then you said that you had a receipt for 122. and 
two 102. ; how much did you give to Hughes ?--He had 
322. 

1897. In what payments was it made, one, two, or 
three ? — I think in three payments. 

1898. One of 122., and the other two 102. each?— Yes. 

1899. Are you sure of that, or are you speaking at 

random ? I cannot be positive, but I believe it was paid 

in three instalments. 

1900. In three sums of 122., 102., and lOL ?— Yes. 

1901. Did you get a receipt from him for that amount 
of 322. ?— Yes. 

1902. How did you get it, in three receipts ?— Yes, 
tiiree receipts. 

1903. Did you get three receipts or one receipt?— 
Three. 

1904. Three separate receipts ?— I should think so. 

1905. I do not want you to think about it ?— I cannot 
be positive. 

1906. Really you can hardly be serious in telling us 

that. You cannot recollect whether you paid Hughes 

iti three sums or one, and whether you got one receipt 

oi: three?— They were paid at three different times, so 

ttaere would not be one receipt 

1907. Did you get any receipt from .Mr. Hughes of 
3&«idwich ; are you positive about it ? — I should nave to 

^Sive an account to Mr. Hughes, our agent here, that 
^^ey had received the money. I should have to bring 
^^-ome kind of receipt to him to prove it. 

1908. You are a man of business, and 'it is not what 
•^^^ou would have to do, but what is the fact ; did you or 
"^--dot get a receipt fix)m Hughes?— I should think so, 
^-C:::3ertamly. 

i909. You should think, you say ; cannot you tell us 

^^(omedking more satisfactory than that ; of course, any 

^teoau may think he would get a receipt, but did you get 

one?— I believe I did, but I cannot say positively. 

X910. Do you real^ seriously say that you would go 



and pay Mr. Hughes a sum of 822. on account of this 
election, and cannot remember whether you took from 
l^im any receipt or memorandum of that payment ; you 
must be able, if you think, to tell us one way or the 
other whether you did take a receipt or you did not ; 
whichever wav it was, tell me what the fact is ? — I have 
no cause for teeping it back if I could recollect it, but 
I certainlv do not want to say anything that is not the 
fact. I should say I am certain almost to have had a 
receipt. 

1911. (Mr, Turner,) Mr. Hughes, the agent, woxdd 
have it if you did do so P — Yes, Mr. Hughes would have 
it with his papers. 

1912. (Mr, llolh) Can you say anything more satis- 
factory than that you thmk you did ; cannot you re- 
member whether you did or did notP — I 'cannot be 
positive, but I think so. 

1913. Of course you cannot tell, then, whether you 
gave Mr. Edwin Hughes the receipt ? — If I got a receipt 
I should return it to our agent, and he is certain almost 
to have a receipt 

1914. As far as we know, he has not ; or at any rate 
he has not returned it amongst his vouchers. Cannot 
you, seriously speaking, give any more (I must use the 
word) satisfactory accoimt than this, whether or not you 
did get a receipt from Mr. Hughes ? — I think I must say, 
yes, there was a receipt. 

1915. Really, your manner of giving your evidence 
obliges me to ask you whether you will really swear that 
you did get a receipt. You must remember this is no 
trifling matter, and I must ask you to think seriously, 
because I cannot help thinking that up to the present 
your answers have been most unsatisfactory ? — I know I 
paid the money. 

1916. I say again you must know, and I cannot help 
saying it, whether you took a receipt for 322, or not P — 
I might have taken a receipt for 102. and a receipt, 
perhaps, for another 102., and a receipt for 122. 

1917. Of course, you might have taken a receipt for 
those three sums or no receipt at all, or a receipt for a 

Sortion ; what I am asking you to tell us is what you did 
o ? — r cannot be positive. 
. 1918. That is all you can say ?— Yes. 

1919. You cannot tell us whether you took any receipt 
at all ? — I cannot say I did, but I should think most 
likely it woxdd be in three receipts. 

1920. I do not want what you think, but what you 
really did doP — I cannot speak to be satisfactory 
about it. 

1921. You cannot say whether you gave Mr. Edwin 
Hughes a receipt or not for that sum P — No, I cannot 
If I paid the money I should be sure to let Mr. Hughes 
know by some means that I had paid the money. 

1922. [Mr, Turner,) You sent receipts for all the other 
payments of 62. to the canvassers P — Yes. 

(Mr, HoTL) We must not take that; if Mr. Hughes 
ever had them he has not returned them with his 
expenses. 

1923. (Mr, Turner.) You say you did so? — Yes ; one 
102., I recollect, was sent by a person by rail to 
Mr. Hughes. 

1924. (Mr, Roll) Who was that P— A passenger going 
over, and I wrote to Mr. Hughes to meet the train. 

1925. Who was it P— A stranger here. 

1926. That does not matter ; who was it ; do not you 
know the name P — No, I do not know his name ; he was 
down about the election. 

1927. You do not pretend to say that you sent over 
102. to Mr. Hughes by a man who you did not know P — 
He was working here. 

1928. Surely you must know his name ? — I do not. 

1929. (Mr, Jeune,) He was a stranger? — Yes; the 
money was received. 

1930. Was he about the place during the election P — 
Yes, and I sent it over. 

1931. How did you know that he had anything to do 
with Mr. Roberts, or with the Conservative party ; was 
he acting with them herep — Oli, I am wrong; I can 
recollect it now ; I sent 102. by Mr. Watts, the spirit 
merchant ; I was going to send it by another man, this 
stranger, and I saw Mr. Watts. 

1932. Is Mr. Watts a Deal man P— Yes, Deal and 
Sandwich ; he has a business in Sandwich, and I was 
going to send it by this stranger, but I recollect I did 
not 

1933. You sent it by Watts to Hughes, of Sandwich P 
—Yes. 



S. Olds, 
6 Oct. 1880. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION I 



S. Olds. 1934. Did you pay tW other 22L to Hughes yourself ? 

— ^Yes, I paid that myself. 

6 Oct. 18S0. 1935. Was that in one sum ortwo ?— That was paid in 

two sums. 

• 1936. 127, and 107. ?— Yes. 

1937. Upon those occasions, when you paid him those 
'two sums of 127. and 107., did you take any receipt of 

him as an acknowledgment that he had received the 
money ? — Yes, I should be sure to. I think I had a 
receipt for the 127., and then I had another receipt for 
the two 107., namely, the 107. I sent by Mr. Watts and 
the 107. I paid myself. 

1938. You think you had a receipt for those two sums 
together ? — ^Yes. 

1939. Is this a mere piece of supposition of yours this 
time, or is it something that you really do remember ?— 
Yes, I remember it ; it just came into my head. I was 
going to send it by the stranger, and then saw 
Mr. Watts. 

1940. I mean about the receipt ; did you get a receipt 
for the 127. ?— Yes. 

1941. You are sure of that P — Yes, I am certain of it 
almost. , 

1942. Did you get any receipt for the 107. that you 
sent by Watts and the 107. that you paid vourself after- 
wards?— Yes, it was accounted for by Mr. Hughes, of 
Bandwich, to me. 

1943. And those receipts you returned to Mr. Hughes ? 
—Yes, all receipts I gave to Mr. Hughes, the agent. 

1944. Wo must adjourn now, and I really do hope 
that between this and to-morrow morning you will try 
and think these matters over P — I have got nothing to 
guide me, even our agent is away. 



1945. If you think it over a little, it is impossible for 
us to suppose that you cannot remember the maSa 
features of all these transactions which took place onlv 
two or three months ago ?— It is four months ago. 

1946. A man of business does not go and do these 
things, and then a few months afterwards not remember 
them ; it is quite incredible ?— I teally cannot recollect 

1947. You may have been taken a little by surprise 
now, and therefore think it over?— I will do the best 
lean. 

1948. (Mr, Turner.) There are two more to whom yon 
paid the 47. extra. You will try and remember those 
names ?— Yes. 

1949. {Mr. HolL) I should like you also to fumish ng 
with a list of the 41 canvassers?—! really could not do 
it. 

1950. You can do it with the register ?— I might make 
out some of them. 

1951. You may be able to remember the bulk of them, 
you were in the habit of mixing with them and dealing 
with them, if there be two or three of them that yon 
caonot remember that is another thing? — There are 
many I do not know, even that were workmg. 

1952.. Make out the best list you can of all the can- 
vassers you employed and paid?— You see thatl^ras 
not working much amongst the canvassers, I merely 
assisted Mr. Hughes to go and pay these people. I was 
not working about with them the whole of the day. 

1953. Perhaps you may be able to get some assistance 
from those who were working with them, to enable yon 
to make up the list of these 41 canvassers, do the best 
you can to make up a list of the canvassers to whom you 
paid 67. each ?— Mr. Hughes coxdd produce a list in a 
moment, but it will be very difficult for me to do it 



Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o'clock. 



THIRD DAY. 



S.Olds. 
7 Oct. 1880. 



Thursday, 7tli October 1880. 



Mb. Samuel Olds recalled and further examined. 



1954. {Mr. Holl) You have given us a list, I see, of 
37 names of the canvassers ?— Yes, that is as near as I 
could get it from memory. 

1955. Those are all that you can remember ?— Yes. 

1956. You cannot remember the other four? — No. 
They should have been paid by Mr. Hughes, they might 
have been engaged by Mr. Hughes, and;my having the 
paying of the others he might place it to my account 

1957. These are all you can remember ? — Yes. 

1958. Have you done your best ? — Yes, I have tried 
all I could, but that is all I can remember. 

1959. Are you sure you are right as to the names 
given here? — Yes, I think so, but it is all from memory. 
There is one thing that I should like to correct in whit 
I said yesterday ; I think I gave the name of J. J. Wise, 
and it is a mistake, and it should be plain James Wise. 

1960. I see that this list of 37 includes yourself?— 
Yes. 

1961. Were you one of the paid canvassers ?— Yes, I 
was one of them. 

1962. And it includes Giles, Hooper, and Hughes of 
Simdwich ?— Yes, and Pantling and East. 

1663. Are they Sandwich men ?— Yes. 

1964. I thought you told us. that Giles, Hughes, and 
Hooper were not part of the 41 ? — I could not speak as 
to it from memory yesterday, but I believe they are. I 
cannot remember the others, and I tried last night and 
again this morning. 

1965. You think now that Giles, Hooper, and Hughes 
are part of the 41 canvassers ?— Yes. T^ere may be 
others, I cannot say there are not, but it is impossible 
to recollect all, some of them were str^igers and perhaps 
I never met them before. 

1966. When do you say you paid these canvassers, 
was it during the election? — ^It would be before the 
election. 

1967. How long before the election did you pay them ? 



— It may be a few days, two or three days, or something 
like that. 

1968. Have you been able to remember the names of 
the two others who had an additional 4L ?— Yes, one was 
Rea at the ** Fountain," and Porter. 

1969. Is that Edward Rea?— Yes. 

1970. What is Porter's Christian name ? — George. 

1971. What is he ?— A boatman. 

1972. You told us yesterday that you sent to Hughes 
82?. ?— I did. 

1973. 12Z. of which you believe he kept, and that he 
gave 101. to Giles and lOL to Hooper? — ^I think, by 
refreshing mv memory, that 12Z. was given to them for 
themselves, but they did not make use of it for that 

Eurpose. They received 6^. eadi, and they should have 
ad this 121., 4L each amongst the three of them, but 
instead of doing so Mr. Hughes wanted the money for 
other purposes, and it was disbursed by him, in fact the 
voters were pestering him for money and he gave it to 
them. 

1974. I understand you to say that Mr. Hughes dis- 
tributed that 12L amongst voters? — ^Yes, for expenses 
it was. 

1975. You say that voters were pestering him for 
money and he distributed it amongst Siem ? — Yes. 

1976. How much do you say Hughes distributed in 
that way out of the 32^. ?— I gave him first 12^, and after 
that they sent over from Sandwich upon the polling day 
to say that they had no money, that the Liberal party 
were throwing money about and tiiat they had none, and 
that we should lose our election, I was going to send 
the parcel by another person, but I sent it by Mr. Watte, 
and he did not know what it contained. I put lOZ. in a 
parcel and sent it over by Mr. Watts to give to 
Mr. Hughes, and he merely conveyed it as a private 
parcel, and did not know the contents of it. Upon the 
night of the election they came round to me again 
and said '* We have no mone^, the men want somethiDg 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



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" to drink, what are we to do ? " and I gave them another 
lOL, which aoconnts for the S2L 

1977. To whom did you give the second lOZ. ? — To 
Mr. Hnghes. 

197a To himself?— Yes, 

1979. Did he oome over ?— No, I was oy&t at Sand- 
wich upon the Saturday, and they said they had not a 
slulling in their pockets, and the others were spending 
money, and they had nothing to pay themselves with 
unless what they paid out of their own pocket. 

1980. (Mr. Turner.) The 12Z. went to these three you 
say ? — It should have done so, but they spent it fairly 
amongst the voters, whether in treating or not I cannot 
Bay, but Mr. Hughes will explain that 

1981. (Mr. HoU.) The whole of the 32Z. went in the 
way you have told us. First you gave him 121., and 
then you sent over lOZ. by Mr. Watts, in response to an 
application saying that the other side were spending 
money, and they must have some money ? — Yes, or else 
we should lose the election. 

1982. Then you say upon the evening of the election 
you went over, and Hughes told you he must have 
money ? — They wanted something. 

1983. And you gave him a further lOZ. ?— Yes, I did. 

1984. Did he tell you what they wanted the money 
for? — ^Yes ; he said the others were giving drink and 
money, and they had nothing to do it with. 

1985. Are you sure the last lOZ. was the evening of the 
election ?— Yes. 

1986. Not the evening before the election? — ^I an^ 
q)eaking from memory, but I beHeve I am correct 

1987. (Mr. Jev/ne.) You mean the evening before the 
election ? — No, the evening after the election. 

1988. (Mr. HoU.) The first 102. was upon the morning 
of the election ? — No, in the afternoon, and the second 
in the evening, after the election ; at the dedturation of 
tiiepolL 

1989. Are you quite sure about that ?— I am speaking 
from memory, but I believe my memory is correct 
Mr. Hughes will correspond with my evidence ; tiiere is 
nothing to keep back, and we have no wish to keep any- 
thing back. 

1990. "When you say that, I of course assume that you 
mean it ; but let it be understood that you not only say 
it, but act upon it ? — I do act upon it. It is a long time 
to go back, four months, but I think I am correct upon 
those matters. 

1991. Have you not, besides the 32Z. that you have 
now mentioned, sent over other moneys to the parties 
you have spoken of at Sandwich ; either sent it or given 
it?—Ihave. 

1992. How much ; tell us at once the whole, because 
it is just as weU you should tell the whole at once other- 
wise you will be lengthening the inquiry? — ^I should 
think about 4502., as near as I can give it 

1993. Besides the money you have been speaking of ? 
—Yes, besides the 822. 

1994. Tell us when that was sent, to whom, and) in 
what snms. What was the first money you sent over, 
apart from the 322. ? — I sent it all at once. 

1995. Who was it sent to ? — I have just made a private 
memorandum, but it is all from recollection. I sent 
it over by Giles and Hughes. They came to my place 
for it 

1996. When was that? — I think it must have been 
upon the Monday, Bank Holiday. 

1997. The Monday before the election ?— Yes, the 
©lection was upon the Tuesday. 

1998. What money did you give to them?— About 
4502. 

1999. How did you pay it to them ?— In gold. 

2000. From whom had you received that money ? — ^I 
^'^^oeiyed it from a gentleman, a dark gentieman and 

^^ort brought it to my office ; in fact he was in my room 
**^^en I got home. He wanted to see me, and I went in 
^*-%id asked him what he wanted. 
^^ 2001. A short dark gentleman you found in your 

^^ce ?— He was in my sitting room when I went home. 
>,^ 2002. What time in the day was that ?— I should think 
^^^ was about 3 in the afternoon. He came in by the 
^ .27 train. 

^003. Had you seen him before ?— No. 
^004. Have you seen him since ? — No. 
^005. Not at aU ?— No. 
-ii^DOO. You are quite sure of that ?— Yes. 
Q33d4 



2007. Do you know his name ?— No, I do not ; I S. Oldt. 
asked him his name, and he said it did not matter. 

2008. And he gave you 4502. in gold, or more?— He ^ Oct. 18«0. 
gave me 1,0002. 

2009. And of that sum you gave 4502. to Mr. Hughes 
and Mr. Giles ?— Yes. 

2010. To whom did you give the rest of it?— I asked 
him what I was to do with it, and he said it was for 
electioneering purposes. He said, " I have brought it 
** to you to distribute amongst the agents and canvassers 
" of the Conservative party. Distribute it in the best 
•* manner you can. " 

2011. You say that you gave 4502. to Giles and Hughes 
of Sandwich ; to whom did you give the rest ? — The rest 
was given to various people ; some of the working party 
in Deal. 

2012. I must trouble you to teU me who, and how 
much to each ; and the sooner we have it the better, 
because it will save time ?— I will give it so far as my 
memory goes ; but I cannot give all the amounts, because 
they came in such a rush upon me. Some had 202.. some 
had 302. 

2013. Let us begin, and see how far we can go?— I 
will go SA far as I can. 

2014. I hope that will be through the whole ?— Evans. 
I think he had 1022. 

2015. What is his Christian name ?— I really do not 
know. 

2016. What is he?— I think he is a retired publican. 

2017. Do you know Tviiat house he kept? — The 
** Greyhound," he did keep, but he is out of it now. 

2018. Wholwae the! next P— Solomon, 242.: Havman, 
1112. ^^ 

2019. What was he ?-~He is a retired publican. 

2020. What house did he keep ?— The " Pier Hotel" 

2021. What is Solomon?— A farmer. 

2022. Do you know his Christian name? — ^Walter. 

2023. Who was the next one?— Ralph. 

2024. What Ralph is that?— A blacksmith, 

2025. What is his Christian name ?— J. J. Ralph. 

2026. How much did he get?— 1202. 

2027. Who is the next ?— I cannot go any further from 
memory. 

2028. Just try ; I am sure you can tell us P — They all 
have lists which they will bring; they will all come 
forward. 

2029. That is only 8502. out of 5502., leaving 2002. P— 
They will came forward with the lists. 

2030. Who are "they"?— The people who had it; 
they are willing to come forward. 

2031. Then you must know them P— Those that I do 
know are willing to come forward ; but I cannot tell the 
amount that they had. 

2032. (Mr. HoU.) Give the names of those others who 
had any of it P— A man named Worrels had some. 

2033. How much P— I cannot say. 

2034. About P— I cannot say. 

2035. 102., 152., 502., or 1002. P— It is useless to give a 
wrong statement. 

2036. You can tell within 102., 502., or 1002. ; was it 
nearer 102., or 502., or 1002. ?— I should say it would be 
about 202. or 802. 

2037. What is Worrels ?— He is a publican. 

2038. What house does he occupy ?— The ** Sir Colin 
CampbelL " Destroying all my papers has placed me at 
a great disadvantage. I did not think anything of this 
would come, and I have nothing but my head to go to. 

2039. It was a very foolish thing to do, and I should 
think you must have known it ? — I am very sorry for it 
now. 

2040. We will not say anything about your destroying 
the papers, but having done so you must brush up your 
memory all the more for it. Who is the neit one p— A 
man named Barnes. 

2041. What is his Christian name P— Thomas Barnes. 

2042. What is he P— He is also a publican. 

2043. How much did he have ; about p Does he keep 
a public-house nowp — No. I think his aocoimt was not 
very heavy; about 122. or 152., but I cannot say 
exactiy. 

2044. What is his house P— The ** Cambridge Arms." 
You must not take the amount as positive, because I am 
not sure about them at all. 

2045. I am taking them as amount^ as near as you can 
give them. Who is the next P — ^A man named Bushell. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION ; 



5. Olds. 2046. Is that William Busbell or Henry Bushell ?— 

ll^lliam Buflhell, I think, but I will not be positive as to 

7 Oct 1880. t^e ChriBtian name. 
■• '^' 2047. What is be P — A surveyor. 

2048. How much did be have ? — I cannot tell you. 

2049. About ?— He might have 30^. 

2050. Or more? — Or it may be less. It is useless for 
me to give the sums, because it will be no guide. 

2051. I take it that you are only telling us to the best 
of your belief? — ^It might lead yon astray. I can give 
you the names of the people who had money, and that 
will be better than to give a fabulous sum, and not know 
whether it is right or not 

2062. We will take it only as .near as you can give it P 
— ^I think the best way will be to give ttie names of the 
persons who had the money. There was a man named 
Philps. 

2053. What is his Christian name P — ^I cannot say, but 
he is the landlord of the ** Rising Sun." 

2054. Now the next P — ^A man named Mackins. 
What is his Christian name P— Sheppard, I 



2055. 

think. 

2056. 

2057. 



Is he a publican P— Yes. 

What house does he keep P— The "Stag." 



Then there is a man named Bedman. 

205S. What is he P— He is also a publican, but I can 
hardly be positive about him, and perhaps I had better 
leave him out ; I know we hired his house. 

2059. What public-house does he keep P— The "True 
Briton." Then Bea and Porter ; the two together had 
one sum. 

2060. Do you know how much they had ?— I do not 
remember. 

2061. What is Bea P— A publican. 

2062. What house does he keep p— The "Fountain." 

2063. What is Porter P— A boatman, I think ; a boat 
owner. 

2064. You do not know how much they had between 
them P-^I could not say from memory. 

2065. Who else is there ?— Henry Spears. 

2066. What is he P— A publican. 

2067. What house does he keep P— The "Antwerp." 

2068. Do you know how much he Kad P — No. 

2069. Who else is there P—Mackie. 

2070. What is he ?-— A pOot. 

2071. What is his Christian name p— William. 

2072. Who else is there P— Valentine Myhill. 

2073. He is a boatman, is he not p — No, a Trinity pilot. 
Then there is a man named Jonea 

2074. What is his Christian name P — I really do not 
know. 

2075. What is he P—A publican. 

2076. What house does he keep P— I think it is the 
"Sir Sydney Smith." 

2077. Is it B. W. Jones P~I think it is, but I am not 
mre. Then there is James Wise. 

2078. What is he P— He is living retired. 

2079. Who else is there P— Benjamin Wood. 

2080. What is he P—A farmer. 

2081. Now who else p— I think I have exhausted the 
list. 

2082. Are those all you can remember P — Yes, at 
present. 

2083. Have you tried to think it out before P— Yes. 

2084. You believe those are all? — Yes; and I have 
no wish to keep anything back. 

2085. You have done your best to remember, and 
those are all you know of P — Yes. 

2086. Did you yourself distribute the money amongst 
these difiEerent parties P— I paid it all to those parties. 

2087. You yourself did that ?— Yes, myself. 

2088. You took no memorandum or receipt from any 
of them P— I had a memorandum that I kept of the 
amount. 

2089. How much you gave to each P— Yes. 

2090. And that you say you have destroyed ?— Yes, 
that was destroyed, and it would assist me materially if 
I had it now ; but I had no idea of any such inquiry as 
this coming ; we never had such a thing before, and I 
was under the impression that the election was all over, 
and it was all done with. 

2091. Did you receive any instrootions from anyone 



as to how you should distribute this money, and in what 
amount P — ^Yes, from the man who brought it. 

2092. What did he tell you p— He told me to distribute 
it as equally as I could amongst the canvassers and 
working men, and I think I have done so. 

2093. Did he give you any directions as to the amounts 
to be distributed at Sandwich, Deal, or Walmer P— No. 

2094. Do I understand you to say that it is really the 
fact that you have no idea who this man is P — ^No, not at 
all ; he is a perfect stranger to me. I asked his name, 
and he refused to give it. 

2095. Have you heard from any one else who he was? 
— No. 

2096. Not frcwa any one P — ^No, I have no idea ^ere 
the money came from. 

2097. You never heard from any one any intimatian 
or suggestion as to who he was ? — No, not at all 

2098. Give me as accurately as you can a description 
of him, you say he came by the 3.27 train upon Bank 
Holiday ?— Yes. 

2099. What sort of man was he? — A man a httle oyer 
five feet, with dark whiskers, he seemed to have a lot d 
whiskers. 

2100. Was he a dark man?^Yes, and he bron^ the 
money in a little black bag. 

2101. Was he a stout man ?— Not very stout 

2102. What age was he ? — ^I should think he would be 
a man about 50. 

2103. He told you to distribute the money amoDgst 
the supporters of the Conservative party?— Yes; I 
asked what I was to do with it, and the gentleman said 
*' It is for election purposes, distribute it amongst the 
'' agents, canvassers, and working parties of the Ck)n- 
** servatives." 

2104. I presume you had had some intimation that 
this money was coming ? — No, I had not I had had 
an enquiry or two to know whether I had got any monej 
promised, several asked if any money was about, and I 
said, * * I did not know. " Many of them said to me, " Have 
** you got any money," and I said, " No, I have got no 
** money." 

2105. Tell us some of the people who asked yon that? 
—I could not recollect who they were, many asked if I 
had any money, and I said ** No." 

2106. Tell us a few of them?— I cannot do it, but 
many have asked me as I have been passing whetiier I 
had got any money, or knew whether it was coming. 

2107. They would not ask you in the street in that 
open way ? — Yes, it was no secret As I was walking 
along the street they would say, "We want somennmey, 
" have you got any," or ** Do you know where it is? " 

2108. Was that a frequent enquiry as you walked 
along the street ? — Yes, frequently, 

2109. From whom ? — From some of the lower clafisefl^ 
some of the boatmen. 

2110. Working men about the town ? — Yes. 

2111. Any of the tradespeople ? — No, not the trades- 
people, more the working classes. 

2112. Was that enquiry made of you by the active 
working men of your party? — I have had them make 
such an enquiry as this, ''Is there anything about, do 
" you know of anything," and I have answered them 
*«No." 

2113. Have you heard that remark made by some of 
the leading working men of your party ? — Yes. 

2114. All of them? — ^I could not name them now. 

2115. Surely you can tell me some of th@n ?— No, it 
was a general thing. 

2116. You say that some of the leading working men 
upon the Conservative side asked you whether you had 
any money, or whether any money had come?— Yea, 
whether tnere was any money commg, but I could not 
remember the names. 

2117. From what was said did you gather that tiie 
party expected there would be money coming down to 
be distributed P — I do not think they expected it from 
that source, they asked me genendly, *'Is there any 
'* money about, are we going to have anything thu 
" time." 

2118. Was that said to you frequently by the leading 
working men of your party ? — Some of tlie working men, 
they were wanting to know whether they were going to 
get something— they could hear that there was money 
upon the other side, and they said, ** Have we any," and 
I could give them no information upon the subject ontil 
this money arrived. 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 



43 



2119. These inen yon are speaking of were voterft P — 
Yes. 

2120. And men working npon the Gonservatiye side 
as canvassers, either voluntarily or paid? — Yes, they 
made the same remark, ** Have we got anything, do yon 
" know of anything coming." 

2121. I may take it it was a eonmion impression 
amongst a good many of your side that money might 
oome, and tiiey were anxious to know whether it had 
oome ? — ^Yes. 

2122. They were expecting it P — They had seen me with 
Mr. £. Hughes, and tiiey were expecting some money. 

2123. Can you give me the names of some of the 
parties P — No, I could not, really ; they were nearly all 
alike, wanting to know whether there was any money. 

2124. Would as many as 20 or 30 have asked you 
that ?— Sometimes in passing up a street the length of 
this hall I have been stopped half a dozen times by 
people wanting to know if there was anything about. 

2125. I am speaking more particularly of the persons 
working for the party, canvassers either paid or other- 
wise ? — They might have asked me, '* Is there anything 
** down, do you know of anything, have we got any 
** money," or *^1b any money coming. " I do not think 
they knew from what source it was comii^, and I did 
not know myaell 

2126. Were you asked frequently the question by 
zinmbers of your own party P — Yee, frequently. 

2127. Showing that they expected something to come, 
and were anxious that it should oome P — There always 
had been something before on both sides. 

2128. And they were anxious to know whether there 
was to be anything upon this occasion, and whether it 
had come ? — ^Yee. 

2129. Was it your own idea, or did you act according 
to instructions in sending as much as 450Z. to Snndwich ? 
— ^I had no instructions from anyone ; the men called 
and stated what number they had got, and what they 
wonld require, and I gave the amount. 

2130. Who called P— Mr. W. J. Hughes and Mr. Giles, 
they called and told me what number they had got, and 
what they would be required to be paid. 

2131. How many did they tell you they should have 
to pay P — I really could not tell you that. 

2132. Just think as nearly as you can remember P— I 
oonld not say. 

2133. They would of course tell you about how many 
they had to pay, and about what they thought of paying 
them, how much did they suggest tiiey wanted to pay 
the men P — ^There was an arrangement made. 

2134. What sum was it suggested . that they should be 
paid, all alike P~-3Z. 

2135. Then the 450Z. would pay 150 of them P— Yes. 
2186. Was that about the number they suggested P— I 

think it must be. 

2137. That was about the number they suggested they 
conld pay in that way ? — Yes, they were not to exceed 
S^ahea^ 

2138. Did you hear from them afterwards whether 
ihey distributed that money P — Yes, and more besides ; 
they gave me to understand that they paid some out of 
their own pocket. 

2139. Who gave you to understand that P — Mr. 
Hnghes. 

2140. And Mr. Giles too p — ^Yes, they said they were 
out of pockety that they had spent the money, and had 
got none for themselves. 

2141. Did the other man Hooper have money P— Yes. 

2142. Was there any one else who distributed money 
besides Hooper, Giles, and Hughes ? — East 

2143. Was any distributed by a man named Lock p — 
Yes. 

2144. Was it Hughes only, or each of the five, that 
told you they had distributed this mone^, or only 
portions of itp — They said they had distributed the 
money, and fancied they were out of pocket. 

21^. I understood you to say that you gave the whole 
of the 450Z. to Giles and Hughes P— Yes. 

2146. Did East, Hooper, and Lock get what they 
distributed from Giles and Hnghes ?— Yes. 

2147. Who was it told you they had distributed it and 
were out of pocket P — Hughes for one, and Hooper for 
another. 

2148. Did you hear anything of the sort from Giles ? 
—Yes, from Giles as weU. I have heard them all say 
the same thing. 



2149. Did'Bast and Lock tell you the same thing, too P 
—Yes, East as welL 

2150. And Lock p— Yes. 

2151. They said they had distributed this money, and 
were out of pocket P— Yes, I think Lock had 1802. 

2152. How mnch did Giles have? — Giles had alto- 
gether, with his own money, that is, the 6Z. allowed him, 
24/., and I think he expended it all. 

2153. He had 18Z. besides the 6/. P— Yes. 

2154. Do you know whether Giles bribed any number 
of men ; do you know how many he paid P — It would be 
six at 3L apiece. 

2155. He kept 6L himself P— No, I think it was all 
used ; I do not think he kept any. 

2156. Do you think he paid eight voters 3L apiece P— 
Yes. 

2157. How much money did East have?— I am not 
positive, but I think about 60L I merely enquired of 
mm the way in which he had distributed it afterwards. 

2158. Do you know how much Hooper had P — No, I 
do not. 

2159. Hughes kept a portion P — Yes. 

2160. Do you know how much Hughes kept p— No, I 
cannot speak from memory. 

2161. Hooper had somep — Yes, Hooper and Hughes 
had the remainder. 

2162. That is to say the difTerence between 2642. and 
450Z. ?— Yes. 

2163. With regard to the distribution of the other 
portions to Worrels, Barnes, Bnshell, and the other men 
whose names you have given, how were you guided in 
the amounts you gave to them ? — They merely told me 
they had so many persons, and they wanted so much 
money to pay them. 

2164. At what rate waa that calculated by them ; at 
what rate were they to pay the men P — 3Z. a man. 

2165. It was the same at Deal and Walmer as it was at 
Sandwich, 3/. a head ?-— Yes. 

2166. Did you distribute the whole of the 550Z. P— 
Yes. 

2167. You distributed the whole of the 1,000Z. in fact P 
—Yes. 

2168. At the rate of 3Z. a head, 550?. would bribe 
about 180 people. They gave you the names of the 
people that thev thought they could payp — ^Yes, the 
names of those that they had got. 

2169. Have you got the names of those people now ? 
—No, I destroyed fliem all ; if I had the lists, I should 
have no diflSculty. 

2170. Can you remember any of the people whose 
names they gave you ? — ^No. 

2171. They will know no doubt?— Yes, they will 
know. 

2172. Do you know the names of any of the men that 
Hughes, Giles, Hooper^ East, and Lock were to operate 
upon ?— No ; I had more time with the Sandwich people, 
because I checked the Sandwich list to see that mey 
were all voters. 

2173. You checked the list they brought you with the 
register to see that they were voters p — Yes, and I gave 
them the money accordingly, but at Deal they rushed 
upon me so quick that I had not time. 

2174. Did you hear from these parties — ^Worrels, 
Barnes, Bushell, and the other names you have given 
me — ^that they had distributed this money P — Yes. 

2175. You heard it from each of them P — ^Yes. 

2176. That they had paid it over according to the pur- 
pose for which it was given to them P — ^Yes, certainly ; I 
believe they did, but I could not say for certain. 

2177. Did they tell you so P^Yes, they told me so. 

2178. They told you that they had done it P— Yes. 

2179. I may take it there is no doubt, is there, that 
the first thing you did was to secure a number of public- 
houses in the place; you thought naturally that the 
public-house interest was a very important one P — The 
facts are simply these. The Conservatives contested 
the seat a great many times, and alwavs failed, or nearly 
always ; they seemed rather down about contesting it, 
but when l&r. Hugessen left, he being very popular for 
many years both with the Liberals and CSonservatives — 
he being elevated to the peerage — there came an open 
question, and it was said, **We have got a stranger 
coming in,'* and then the CJonservatives showed up in 
their true colours. My object was, which has been no 
doubt theirs always, to go round first and secure a great 
many public-houses ; indeed, I believe if the other aide 



8.0ld$. 
•7 Oct. 1880. 



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SANDWiCH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



5. Old: had them all, you would not have heard anything about 

it. Our party has generally been behind, and we have 

7 Oct 1880, allowed them to do it. 
■ 2180. Generally speaking they get the start of you, 

and you thought they should not do it this time P — ^We 
had nearly a week's start of them, and we might have 
had nearly all the houses. 

2181. You did have pretty nearly all P— A great manv 
more would have oome if we wanted them. The result 
was, with a week's sturt, Mr. Boberts had fairly got three 
parte of the promises of the voters before Mr. Goldsmid 
came down, and when he osme down he really had not a 
shadow of a chance. I believe, if Mr. Boberts had not 
spent a shilling, that the popularity he was held in 
would have carried him through without spending a 
shilling, whilst the other might have spent his money ; 
that was the difference between the two ; it did not 
matter where you went, as soon as they saw Mr. Boberts 
they were wil£ng to vote for him. 

2182. You mean as soon as they saw Mr. Boberts, and 
foimd that he would take 60 or 60 public-houses, they 
were willing to vote for him. I understand you to say 
that you considered, and the leaders of vour party con- 
sidered it of great importance to secure tne public-house 
interest?— It is important in many ways. With regard 
to the bill posting, the literature put upjon the waUs is 
pulled down and covered up with other bills, whereas in 
the windows there is no difficulty in hanging the bills, 
and you can send the boys and. they can replace the bills 
two or three times a day if you feel inclined. Many of 
the voters living in the ontljring districts perhaps do not 
attend any meetings, but they see the bills at night when 
they come in and have a qmet pint, and they can read 
the bills much better that when they are posted in the 
streets. In the windows they are not subject to be 
covered or to be torn up and made use of. 

2183. Besides that, there is always a coterie in the 
habit of attending each of the houses, or most of them P 
— Yes, no doubt they all expect to make a little out of 
the election. 

2184. If you have a great many houses, the landlord 
of the house is naturally anxious to help your side if he 
can ? — ^Not in all cases. When I engaged those houses I 
had no parliamentary list with me, and I did not know 
who was a voter and who was not. I merely went down 
and took the houses in rotation. 

2185. Most of them would be voters, as householders? 
— Not all of them, because some would only have been 
there a very short time. However, I did not ask who 
had votes, and whether they were Liberal or Conserva- 
tive ; and they were at liberty to vote which side they 
thought proper. 

2186. You thought probably that if you took his house 
and your colours were up, you would get his vote, and 
that the people attending lus house would be likely to 
vote for you P — Many of those of whom we hired houses 
voted against us, and many of them let a room to the 
other party, because I did not bind them all not to do 
that. 

2187. Was it not the fact that one object of taking a 
number of houses was that yon. secure, to a certain 
extent the interest of the house and of the people who 
are in the habit of attending it P — It is on account of the 
show a great deal. Passers by see the bills up in a 
number of windows, and that may be an inducement to 
the people outside to say, '' It looks rather red out here, 
" and I shall go with it," or, " It looks rather blue, and 
" I shall go with it." 

2188. {Mr, Jeune, ) It looks like the winning side ? — 
Yes, and there are many who like to vote the winning 
side ; but I think a qmeter election there could not 
possibly be. There was not one case of drunkenness, 
and no treating. 

2189. (Mr. Holl) You know of no treating?— No ; no 
treating whatever. 

2190. £[ave you told us all the money that yon have 
received ? — ^I believe it is alL 

2191. You say "beUeveP"— Why I say I believe is 
because I cannot say exactly how much was in the bag. 
I never counted it. There might have been more, but I 
guessed about a thousand pounds ; but I took some and 
paid it away directiy, and never had an opportunity of 
counting it. 

2192. May there have been 1,200Z., or 1,500Z. P— 
There may have been more than 1,0002., but I never 
counted the money. I never had a chance to count it. 
It was all gone in a couple of hours. 

2198. You have told us yon kept an aocoont at the 



time of what you paid away ?— Yes, but I never added 
it up. ^^ 

2194. Although you have destroyed the aooount, and 
therefore have not got the details, surely you know what 
the sum total was within 60Z. Was it as much 881,500^ p 
— ^I never had an opportunity of counting it ; before I 
had got rid of one, another was in. 

2195. You told us you did keep a memorandum of 
what you paid away p— Yes. 

2196. And therefore you had all the sums do^m in 
writing?— Yes, but I destroyed it the day after the 
election. 

2197. That would prevent your knowing the detail of 
how much you gave exactly to each, but still you.wonld 
know whether Qie whole of that which you put down 
amounted to 1,2002. or 1,500L Did it oome to 1,500L ? 
— ^I did not go through it, but it might have done. I 
cannot say the amount. 

2198. (Mr. Turner.) Why did you say l,O00L ?— I aaid 
about 1,0002. 

2199. (Mr. HoU.) Might it have been as much as 
1,6002. P— I should think not 

2200. You would not undertake positively to say it 
was not as much as 1,5002. P— I should think not I 
should say 1,3002. 

2201. Did the dark man tell you how much it vaa ?— 
No. I put it at a guess 1,0002. 

2202. And you say now it nught be 1,500L P— lahould 
think not, but I cannot positively say. It might bo 
1,2002. or 1,3002. 

2203. Do you really say you do not know whether it 
was 1,0002. or 1,3002. P— No ; I did not count it 

2204. When you put down what you paid upon this 
memorandum, yon would know sumcientiy how mnoh 
the total came to P— You mean that I ought to haveadded 
it up. 

2205. I am not asking you to arrive at the amoont 
within 52. or 102., but one would think you would have 
added it up sufficiently to know whether the amount yon 
received or distributed was 1,2002., 1,3002., or 1,600/.? 
— My calculation gave me about 1,0002., but I say 
there might be more, because they rushed in upon 
me so. 

2206. You said just now you thought probably it was 
1,2002. or 1,3002., and not as much as 1,5002. P— Why I 
left this margin is this, several came and took it, and 
were gone before I could enter it ; the result might be 
that one or two might come in and say that they wanted 
80*and-so, and I may not have accounted for it. 

2207. Have you given us all the names of the parties 
who had money P— Yes, I think so ; all I can recollect 
If I recollect more I will give them to you at anytime, or 
to the secretary. 

2208. Just think it over, because I should not like 
afterwards someone to come, and find that someone else 
had money that you had forgotten. Try and think it 
over, and see if you can think of ^y other names. Yon 
have got some memoranda there P — This is only from my 
head. 

2209. Do you mind my seeing it p — Not the slightest 
(handing a paper to the Commissioners). That is a 
littie memorandum I have pencilled out, as I could think 
of it 

2210. Is this the only memorandum you had in yonr 
hand P — Yes ; I made it this morning. 

2211. I thought vou had some memorandum of the 
names here P — No, tnat is the onl^ one ; that is as near 
as I can tliinlr, I f.hiTik you Will find ^'^i« comee in 
pretty correct, and will be within a feV pounds either 
way. 

2212. How long a time elapsed after the stranger 
came and gave you this bag, before Giles and Hughes 
came P Were they the first people who came for money P 
—Yes. 

2213. How long a time elapsed before they came to 
you ; two or three hours P — More than that 

2214. You sent over to them P— No. They came to 
Lord Qeorge Hamilton's meeting, but they did not hare 
the money. 

2215. What time was that P— That was in the evening, 
and they came the following day. I think in the evening 
they must have come. 

2216. In the evening, about 7 or 8 o'clock P— Yes. 

2217. You were at home at that time, I suppose P— 
I was out and about a great deal, bat I was at home 
when they oame, and gave them the money. 



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MINUTSS OF EVIDENCE. 



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2218. I nnderstand yon found this gentleman sitting 
in the Hitting room of your own house with this money ? 
— Yes, with the money. 

2219. How long did he remain with yon? — Not 
10 minutes ; he went off directly, he was going back by 
the next train. 

2220. Are you quite sure he did not tell yon how 
much there was ? — I am sure he did not. 

2221. It strikes me ad a very singular thing for a man 
to come and leave you a large bag of gold and not tell 
you how much there was in it ?— No, he did not, not even 
his name. 

2222. I can understand his not leaving his name ; why 
did not he tell you what there was?— Well, to the best 
of my belief he said it was 1,000Z., that is what I base it 
upon. 

2223. Did not he count it before he went, to let you 
see how much there was ?— No, he merely took it out of 
his bag and left it, and was off out as quick as he could. 

2224. The bag, I suppose, was merely tied up ?— Yes. 

2225. Then when you had a large bag of money like 
that left with you, did not you, out of common con- 
sideiation for yourself, count it out to see how much 
there was in it ?— I did not. 

2226. Why did not you count it so that you might 
know what sum you had received, and be able to account 
for it to those wno sent it to you ? — I intended to do so, 
but I was called away, and was out a great deal ; the first 
thing was I took me Sandwich money out and paid 
them. 

2227. Do you mean you had not taken the money out 
of the bag, and counted it over during the three or four 
hours that elapsed ? — I went out again directly. 

2228. But there were three or four hours, according 
to your own statement, that elapsed between the time 
that this money was paid to you and the time you first 
disbursed a portion, 450Z. of it, to Giles and Hughes. 
Daring that time do you really mean you did not take 
the money out and count it, so as to ascertain for your- 
self how much there was ? — Of course it is a long time 
to recollect. I believe the Sandwich people called to 
see me at night and some in the morning ; I think they 
came over early in the morning. 

2229. Then it was not only three or four hours in 
which you could count it, but all the night. Do you 
really mean to tell us you did not take me trouble to 
ascertain how much money had been entrusted to your 
charge, so that you might be able to exonerate yoiiself 
and explain how you disposed of it? — I aid no 
comit it, but I believe he left it, stating it was 1,000Z. 

2230. How was it you said 1,300Z. or 1,400Z. ?— 
Becanse I did not count it. There may be more. I 
know the man left it saying there was 1,000Z. 

2231. {Mr. Turner.) You told us sometime ago he did 
not tell you how much there was ? — WeD, I am under tiie 
impression he said so. I must have got the impression 
somewhere. 

2232. (Mr. HoU.) I remember I asked you some time 
ago when I first began to ask you how much there was 
in it, " Did not he tell you how much there was P " and 
you told us distinctly, **No, he said here is a bag of 
" money " ? — I will not be positive whether he did say 
the amount or not, but I am under the impression now 
he must have said it was 1,000Z. In fact, I have been 
nnder the impression all along that it was 1,0007. 

2233. It is singular to my mind that you should have 
got the impression that it might have been 1,200Z. or 
1,300?.. We asked you if it was as much as 1,500?. and 
you said it was not, but it might be 1,200Z. or 1,800?. ?— 
Yes ; you would not get 1,500?. into one bag. 

2234. (Mr. Turner.) But you said it might be 1,200?. 
or 1,300L ?— There might be 20?. or 30?. more than he 
told me. 

2235. (Mr. Holl) But you said there might be 1,200?. 
or 1,300?. ? — I never counted it I could not say the 
amount. 

2236. Are you prepared to say positively there was 
not as much as 1,300?. in that bag ?— Certainly, there 
oonld not be, the bag would not hold it. 

2237. Forgive me; a bag that would hold 1,200?. 
might probably hold 1,3007. ; it would depend upon ttie 
size of the bag ? — I think the first statement is right, 
that it is 1,000?. ; I think that is right 

2238. Have you got the bag now P— I do not know ; I 
Ma not positive whether I have or not 

2239. Was it a canvas bag? — Yes. I do not think I 
have it 



2240. Where did yon leave the bag when yon went 
away ; you say you went out, where did you leave it P — 
I left it in charge of my wife to take care of. 

2241. How was it fastened up P — ^It was tied round with 
a bit of string. 

2242. Had you opened it before you went out P — ^No, 
I was called away ; of course I had business indepen- 
dently of this. 

2243. You tell us now it was the next morning before 
you disbursed any portion of tiie money P — That they 
came over. 

2244. You say the next morning the first people who 
had any money were Qiles and Hughes, 450?. P — They 
were the first. 

2245. They did not get the money till the following 
morning, so that you nad the whole of thsA, afternoon 
till 4 o'dock, and the whole of the night till the next 
morning p — There was a meeting that night 

2246. That did not last the night ; ^ou could count 
this money in half an hour. It seems to me an extra- 
ordinary tiling that a man in your position, having 
received a bag full of money, should not count the money 
so as to be able to say, ** There was so much in the bag, 
*' and I distributed it in such and such a manner. '' But 
according to your account you ask us to believe that you 
took the ba^ f-hiTiVing there was 1,000?., and did not take 
the precaution to see whether there was 1,000?., or 800?., 
or 1,100?., or what amount P — ^I hardly had time to do 
it. 

2247. Excuse me, you had from 4 o'clock one day till 
the next morning P — ^Yes ; but then I did not touch it till 
the following morning, and as soon as I opened it there 
was the parties in at once. 

2248. That is not the thing. You had from 4 o'clock 
in the afternoon until you went to bed, and all ni^ht, 
and they did not come in the next morning certainly 
before 8 or 9 in the morning P — ^About 8 o'dock. 

2249. You had all the morning up to that time ; you 
might have coxmted it 20 times over if you had liked ? — 
I had my business as well to attend to. 

2250. When a man is trusted in that way with 1,000?L 
it is his duty to take some kind of precaution, even for 
his own sake, and see what is left to him, and that he 
disposes of it in the way it is intended, although I will 
not say properly ? — It was done so. 

2251. Do you mean to tell me you did not take the 
precaution to ascertain what amount there was, so that 
if they said there was 1,200?., and you could only show 
you had disposed of 1,000^., you could say there was 
onlv 1,000?. m it P — ^I could prove it by the people who 
had the money. 

2252. That would not prove there had not been more, 
for you might have taken out 200^ in the night and 
retained it yourself ? — Yes. 

2253. You would not have any safeguard unless you 
counted it to see what amount there was ? — The state- 
ment I made first I believe is the correct one, 1,000^. 
I might have taken his word for it, saying there was 
1,000?. 

2254. To whom have you given an aocoxmt of how 
you disposed of that money ? — Nobody. 

2255. Are you sure of that P — Yes, no one has 
asked me. 

2256. Have you never had any conversation with any- 
body about this 1,000?. P— No. 

2257. Do you really mean that ? — Yes. 

2258. Do you mean you have never had any conversa- 
tion with any of the agents of Mr. Boberts with regard 
to this 1,000?. — ^now do think ? — I named it to Mr. Hughes 
one day, and he said he knew nothing about it ; ** I loiow 
" notmng whatever about it," he said. 

2259. That is Mr. Edwin Hughes ?— Yes. 

2260. How soon did you tell him of it ? When did you 
tell him about this 1,000?. P — I told him I had got some 
money, 1,000?. 

2261. When did yon tell him— the day yon got it ? — 
Yes. 

2262. There is no doubt about that ?— No. 

2263. You told him you had got 1,000?., or some sum, 
whatever it was P — Yes. 

2264. Did you tell him the amount?-— I told him 
1,000?. 

2265. Are you sure yon told him 1,000?. ?— Yes, that 
is what it was. 

2266. Are yon quite certain of that P— Quite certain I 
told him I had 1,000?., and he said, ''I know nothing 
'* of it" 



S.Old». 

7 Oct 1880. 



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SANDWICH BliEOTlON COMMBSION : 



7 Oct. 1880. 



2267. Did you tell him ho\r it came abont P— Yes. 

2268. That a stranger brought it to your own room ?— - 
Yes, 

2269. And he told you to distribute it?— Yes. * 

2270. And vou told him, I suppose, you were told it 
was brought tor electioneering purposes ? — Yes, I did. 

2271. And you were told to distribute it among the 
canvassers of your party?— Yes ; and he said, **I know 
** nothing about it." 

2272. That was the day you got it ?— Yes ; he said, 
" It is nothing to do with me ; I know nothing about ii " 

2273. Did he tell you not to distribute it? — He said, 
" I know nothing about it." 

2274. Did you tell him how you distributed it ?— I did 
not. 

2275. You told him you had distributed it ?— I told 
him I had distributed it 

2276. As you had been told ?--Ye8. 

2277. But you did not tell him to whom ?— No. 

2278. You did not tell him the names of the people P 
— I did not give him the names, I do not think. 

2279. I suppose you told him that as soon as you had 
done it P — ^I told him I had distributed it —it was gone. 

2280. When did you tell him that— the same day P— 
The same day it was done. 

2281. That was on the Tuesday P— It would be on the 
Tuesday ; it was distributed the day previous to the 
election ; that would be on the Monday I think. 

2282. You got it on the Monday, as I understand p — I 
got it on the Monday and it was distributed the same day. 

(Mr. Twmer,) You told us not two minutes ago the 
next morning. 

2283.' (Mr. EolL) Yes, you must be making some 
mistake; you must have got in some confusion; you 
said the stranger brought it down at 4 o'clock in the 
afternoon P — Yes, by the 3.27 train. You see it is 
awkward to recollect the dates so long. 

2284. And you say you distributed it the day before 
the election P — ^Yes, it was all distributed the day before. 
I think Giles came over to the meeting, and I believe 
they took the money back with them. I will not be 
positive. I think it must have been the same day now. 

2285. He will tell us about that P— Yes, he will refresh 
my memory on that point. 

2286. You think it must have been the same evening p 
— I think so. 

2287. Did you disburse the other 550f. to Barnes, 
Bushell, Phipps, Spears, {md all those men the same 
evening P — The same evening ; it was all done the day 
before the election. 

2288. Just think ; there seems to be some little con- 
fusion in your mindp — I am confused. I* have got 
nothing to refresh my memory upon. 

2289. Just take a minute or two to think quietly. 
"What we want to know is this, we want you to tell us 
ihe facts. There must be some mistake or some con- 
fusion, for you told us a little while ago that this was 
brought over at 4 o'clock in the afternoon p — The 
3.27 train, not 4. 

2290. You said you found this stranger at your house 
about 4 o'clock P — Well, it would be soon after the train. 

2291. Soon after 4 P — I say soon after the train. 

2292. You had an impression at first that Giles and 
Hughes came over that evening, and they were the first 
parties who had any mone^, and they did not have any 
money till the next morning ?— I will not be positive 
whether they did not have that the same night. 

2293. If they had it the same night, did you distribute 
it to the other people the same night p — ^Yes, ii was all 
done the day before. 

2294. You think now the whole of it was distributed 
tiiat evening ? — Yes, I think that is it. I cannot recol- 
lect to be positive. 

2295. You said that they came over the next morning ; 
that is a mistake then ? — They may not have taken it 
that night ; if they came over on me morning of the 
election they had it then, perhaps. 

2296. Did you give it them or not tliat night ?— I think 
I must, but I will not be certain ; I think tliey must have 
taken it the same night. 

2297. There were a number of other persons, about 19 
or 20 people, to whom you distributed money here. 
Just think. Did you distribute that to these persons on 
the same evening that you got the money, or not ? — I 
think it must be the same evening, I will not be quite 
positive; some might have been over night T^ether 



Giles had his over night, and some of the others, and the 
rest in the morning, I will not be positive. 

2298. Now do think; you told us that you thought 
that Giles and Hughes had the money first ?— Yes, tiiey 
had theirs first ; theirs was counted out ; they gave the 
amount they wanted. 

2299. Is that correct?— Yes. 

2300. If that is so the others must have got the money 
distributed to them after Giles and Hughes got it ?— Yes. 

2301. Unless Giles and Hughes got there that night, 
and you gave the money to them then the other men 
could not have got it that night ? — Very likely they did, 
and the others might have got theirs in the morning. 

2302. Cannot you remember ? — I cannot. 

2803. Just think, this is 1,000L, you know; cannot 
you remember whether you had 1,000Z. in your house 
lying there all night, or not? {After a pause,) All I 
want you to do is to try and remember. Think it over 
for a few moments ; surely you must remember whether 
yon had this money in your house that night, or whether 
you distributed that 1,000/. the same evening yon got it 
or whether it was the next morning ; if you have made a 
mistake say so ; only think it over quietly, so as to try 
and remember exactly what the fact was ?— You see the 
election was on the Tuesday, was it not ? 

2304. The election was on the Tuesday, as I under- 
stand ?— Then it must have been, as I stated before ; the 
man came in that night by the 3.27 train, and left it, 
and I think I must have distributed the whole the morn- 
ing of the election, if that is the case ; in the morning 
previous to the election. 

2305. The morning of the election is a very busy time ; 
cannot you remember whether you distributed it in the 
evening or in the morning?— Some was distributed in 
the morning ; that is what it must have been — distributed 
in the morning before the election. 

2306. You say that must have been it ? — Yes. 

2307. It seems to me singular you cannot remember 
whether you distributed so large a sum of money as 
1,000/. amon^ all these people upon the same evening 
that you got it, or whether you did not distribute it on 
the day of the election ?— You see the men did not know 
it was coming. 

2308. That may be. I am not asking whether you dis- 
tributed the whole of it that night, but did you distribute 
the bulk of it ?— I know there was some I distributed in 
the morning. 

2309. Was the bulk, or any of it, distributed the same 
evening ?— I do not think it was, unless it was the Sand- 
wich people; the Sandwich people might have taken 
theirs bacSi with them. 

2310. And then you might have opened the bag that 
night P— Yes. 

2311. Did not you count it to see what was left?— I 
never counted it. 

2312. Cannot you tell me with more certainty whether 
you did pay the Sandwich people that evening, or whether 
you distributed it all the next morning p — ^I am under 
the impression tliat Giles called upon me that night 
and came early the next morning ; dix>ve over, I f.liinV^ 
early the next morning. 

2313. And fetched it P— Yes, and fetched it ; and I 
think before they were gone the others came in, and it 
was all gone in about a couple of hours. It must have 
been on the morning of the election. 

2314. You think now your first impression was correct, 
and it was all distributed on the morning of the election ? 
—Yes ; you see I am a little confused as to dates, and 
cannot recollect. 

2315. Was it distributed on the evening of the day 
you got it or the next morning P — It was the morning ; it 
must have been. 

2316. So you think now it was the morning of the 
election p — Yes. 

2317. Did you tell Mr. Hughes what you had done 
with it that day p— I told him I had had some money 
come; I do not know who from; he said, **I do not 
" know anything about it." 

2318. Do you say you told him the day you apt it ?— 
The day after, I tlnnk. 

2319. WTiich was it ; when did you tell Mr. Hughes P 
It was an important matter, gettii^ so much money as 
1,000/. left with you in this mysterious manner. Did 
not you communicate with Mr. Hughes, who was your 
principal ; you took your directions from him, did you 
not P— I did. 

2320. Did you or did you not communicate to him the 
fact of your having had this man's visit, and having had 
this large sum left with you ; did you commnnioato that 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE* 



47 



tohimatcmoeP—Idid; he took no notice, and said, **It 
^* is nothing to do with me." 

2321. Did you do it the same day ?— As soon as I re- 
ceived the money ; the same day. 

2322. Are you sure of that P— Yes. 

2323. You communicated the fact to him that you 
had it the same day that you got it ?— Yes, that I had 
received a bag of money. 

2324. Now are you certain of that ?— Yes. 

2325. When did you tell ^irn that you had distributed 
it. You told him then you say how you had been 
directed to distribute it, and he told you he knew nothing 
about it P— Yes. 

2326. Now after you had distributed it the next morn- 
ing did you tell him how you had distributed it ? — Well, 
I might have named it, that I had given it out ; he was 
busy, one way and the other. 

2327. Did you tell him generally that you had dis- 
tributed the money in the manner which you had been 
dbected to do. I do not mean did you give him the 
oames P — I may or may not ; 3 have no doubt he knew or 
guessed the manner in which I had distributed it ; but I 
do not think I gave him a list of all the names or the 
amounts. 

2328. I am not asking that, but did you tell him you 
had distributed ^e money in the manner you had been 
directed to do P — ^I have no doubt I did. 

2329. Can you tell us when you told him that ; that 
morning, or the afternoon, or when ?— In general con- 
versation. I told him I had received this money and 
distributed it. 

2330. You told us when you told him you had received 
it ; now tnr and remember when you told him you had 
distributed it. Did you tell him that on the day of the 
election ? — ^It might be on the day of the election. 

2331. It might be any time p— I should say it was sure 
to be, it was all done previous to the election. 

2332. And did you tell him on the election day P— I 
cannot recollect. 

2333. That you did tell him there is no doubt P — There 
is no doubt I told him I had received some money, and 
he said, " It has nothing to do with me." 

2334. You keep repeating that; but I ask whether 
you had told him you had distributed it in the manner 
you had been directed to do p— I might have done; lam 
not positive. 

2335. Do tell us what is the real fact; it is not a 
question of what may or might be ? — Well, the eletjtion 
day was a very busy one I know ; I may have mentioned 
it to him or I may not. I could hardly get to speak to 
him the election day; he was very busy in the 
committee-room. 

2336. But he was your principal The distribution of 
this money was a material element in the election. Do 
you mean to say that you cannot remember whether you 
told him that you had disposed of this money, or not P 

I cannot remember that I did, I have no recollection, 

I may have done so. I do not say that I did not or 
that I did, it must be an open question. 

2337. You had told him the day before that you had 
received this money ; did he ask you what you had done 
with it P — The remark he made is, " I have nothing to 
do with it, I know nothing of it ; " so I did not trouble 
him again, it is very probable I may not have said 
anything more to him about it. 

2338. When did you first learn that this money was 
coming, or that some money was coming P— I had no 
idea tUl it came. 

2339. Who told you to expect some P— Nobody. 

2340. How was it Giles and Hughes, and all those 
people seem to have got scent of it ? — That was on the 
night. . 

2341. If the party had not been expecting it before 
night, how did they know it was coming P— They were 
sent to me. 

2342. Who sent them to you ? — I do not know ; they 
told me they were told to come and see me. 

2343. They told you they were told to come and see 
you P— Yes, that is what Giles said, "We are told to 
come and see you, Mr. Olds. " 

2344. And I suppose Evans, Solomon, and Hayman, 
and Ralph, and those other men also told you that they 
had been told to come and see you P^Yes. 

2345. Each of them p — Yes, each of them. 

2346. Each of those you gave the money to P — Yes. 

2347. Did none of them tell you who told them to 
come P— No. 



2348. Not one of them P— Not that I can recoUeot S. Olds. 

2349. Have you any idea who told them to oome p-^ 

Mr. Hughes might have said, ** Go and see Mr. Oldk" ? Oct. 1880. 

I cannot say that he did. You see it would not be in 

my presence if he did. They will tell you that. 

2350. Did they lead you to believe p — ^That they 

had been sent there. 

2351. Did they say that ?— They said, "We are told 
to come and see you, Mr. Olds,'* They did not say by 
whom, 

2352. Did they tell von that Hughes had told them to 
come and see you P— No. 

2353. Are you sure of that ?— They got the informa- 
tion ; where from I do not know. 

2354. Did not you inquire of any of them, or did not 
any of them say who had told them to say so P — No. 

2355. Do you mean to say all of them came and said 
exactiy the same words, ** We were told to see you," and 
did not say by whom P — That was the general thing. 
We have so many voters here. 

2356. Do you mean to say that none of them said to 
you, **Mr. Hughes has told us to oome to you"P — ^I 
cannot recollect that any of them did ; they might have 
said so ; I could not be positive. 

2357. Did they not leave any impression on your mind 
as to who had told them to come and see you P — No. 

2358. Do you know now who told them P— I don't 
know. It very soon got spread abroad. 

2359. Do you mean to say you never asked any of 
them, or any of them ever told you who it was told them 
to come and see you P — I might have asked, but I cannot 
recollect now. 

2360. What was the answer P — I don't recollect asking 
any of them or their passing any remark. 

2361. Do think for a moment. Do yon mean to tell 
us that 20 men came to you, and all said tiie same thmg P 
— ^They said ** We have heard you have some money, 
"and we have come for it." 

2362. You paid them every one, and you have no 
notion of who it was told them to come to you P — I could 
not tell who sent them. They will be able to tell you 
who sent them, and where they got the information. 
They might possibly get it from one another ; it would 
not be from one in particular. One ;night come and 
receive money, and he might go back and tell the others 
where to come for it, and one might send another. 

2363. Had you received any instructions with regard 
to this money other than those you mentioned from this 
stranger p — No other instructions. 

2364. Or from anyone P— No. 

2365. Are you quite certain about that P — ^Yes. 

2366. Do you mean that Mr. Hughes had never men- 
tioned to you that money might be coming down, or that 
you might expect some money, which you would be 
required to distribute P — Not that I am aware of ; not 
this money; other moneys Mr. Hughes mentioned 
himself. 

2367. I am speaking of this money. Do you mean 
that you had no intimation from him that money would 
come down to you which you would be reqtured or 
deputed to dispose of p — No, I had not. 

2368. What other moneys had he mentioned to yon 
before P— Well, I paid for tiie houses and various other 
things. For the houses I paid as I stated yesterday. 

2369. Had you tmy other money whatever besides this 
money that the stranger brought you and that which you 
received to. pay for the houses and the sums you men- 
tioned yesterday to pay the canvassers P — Not that I am 
aware of. 

2370. I must get you to think again about this matter. 
You cannot have got 1,0002. brought to you in this kind 
of wa^ without having had some intimation from some- 
body that money would come to you in this way, or 
money would come to you from somebody, and that you 
were to distribute it. They would not send down 1,000Z. 
to you and never say a word to you before hand p — ^I had 
no idea about the money coming to me until I found the 
man in the house, not from fmyone else. I expected 
tiiere would be money down. 

2371. Why did you expect there would be money 
down P — I naturally expected some one would bring some 
money down, but not to me. 

2372. WhyP — ^There generally has been money in 
elections, but I had no idea of getting it myself. 

2373. You do not mean to say they sent you this 1,000?, 
in this kind of mysterious manner, without your having 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



S Old: the slightest knowledge or idea it was coming ?— I had 

\ ' no idea it was coming till it came. 

7 Oct- 1880. 2374 Not the precise amount, but yon knew money 
-- yf2A coming to you to distribute P — ^I did not 

2375. Do you mean you never had any intimation that 
you would be the person who would be asked to take the 
responsibility or the duty of distributing this money 
among the persons where it could be most usefully used ? 
—I did not know who would be anpointed. I was not 
aware who would be appointed for ttie occasion. 

2376. Had you no intimation about it at all P — ^No. 

2377. Then do I understand you to say it was really 
the fad; you had no idea that tnis man was coming to 
you from anyone ?— Our agent knew nothing about it. 
I asked him, and he know nothing about it. 

2378. I am not asking you about afterwards, but 
beforehand. Had not you an intimation or an idea that 
it was probable that this money would come to someone, 
and probably to you or some one else, to distribute P — 
I had no idea. 

2379. Had you any idea ifc would come to somebody to 
distribute P—No, nor from what source it would come. 

2380. Had you any idea it would come from some 
source P— No. I had an idea there would be money 
coming down, but I had no idea in what form or who it 
would come to. 

2381. Why had you an idea that money would come 
down P — There very often is money brought down for 
elections. 

2382. Was that your only reason P— Yes. 

2383. Had you no other reason than that ? — ^No other 
reason. 

2384. Had you any conversation with Mr. Hughes 
about this beforehand P — I cannot recollect any con- 
versation. I know when I received it I told him I had 
got so and so, and he said, ** I know nothing about it." 

2385. Had you any conversation with Mr. Boberts 
about this P — ^No. 

2386. Are you quite certain of that P— Quite certain. 
I never had a ahillmg of Mr. Boberts. 

2387. I am not asking that. Had you any conversa- 
tion with Mr. Roberts about this money coming down to 
be distributed, or that money would come down to be 
disbursed P— I had not. 

2388. Nor with anyone P — Nor with anyone that I am 
aware of. 

2389. Do think. It is not a question of what you are 
aware of. You must know whedier you had or not ?— I 
might have said in this way, people, as I said before, 
asked me would there be any money. I naturally would 
have thought there would be some money down, but I 
had no idea from what source it would come, or who it 
was coming to. 

2390. Had not you some kind of idea given to you 
from some conversation that money would be sent down 
either to you or somebody else for the purpose of being 
distributed for the purposes of the election ?— I might 
have had an idea that it would come down, but I could 
not specify from who. I have got no evidence from 
anyone. 

2391. I am not asking about evidence P — Or conversa- 
tion. 

2392. Had auything occurred between you and anybody 
else that led you to mink that would be the case, and if 
so, who was it ? — I don't know. I cannot recollect any 
conversatioli whatever about the mafcter. I was surprised 
when I found it there. It took me quite by surprise. 

2393. You say you told Mr. Hughes of it* the day it 
came down, what did he say to you P— He said, *' I know 
** nothing about it, and I don't want to. It has notliing 
** to do with me." 

2394. Surely you told somebody afterwards connected 
with your party how you had disposed of this money in 
order to discharge yourself of the receipt of it P— I nad 
no one to inquire. 

2395. But you could do that without iuqniry. Did not 
you give information as to what you had done with it p 
Do you want us to think that you, having received this 
money, did not think it worth while to let them know 
whether you kept it or spent it P—I did not get anyone 
to make any inquiry. I paid it away as quick as I could, 
and done with it. 

2296. Did not you tell anybody you had spent it P—I 
might have said it was all gone. 

2397. Who to P—I really cannot recollect. I might 
have told Mr. Hughes I had spent it all, but I do not 
say 00 as a fact. 



2398. You knew this money came down for the pur- 
poses of the election P — The man told me so. 

2399. And you knew he was the agent of Mr. Boberts 
for the election P — Mr. Hughes ? 

2400. Yes? — He had the whole management and 
oontroL 

2401. Do you mean to tell me you received so large a 
sum as 1,000L, and you never thought it worth your 
while to inform him or anybody else what had been done 
witii it ? — He did not want to tie informed. 

2402. Did he say so?— He said he did not want to 
know anything about it. 

2403. Did he tell you so ? I do not want what you 
think, but did he tell you so?— He said, "I know no- 
rthing about it, nor don't want to." 

2404. That was the observation he made when you 
first told him you had received it ? — Yes. 

2405. Who had you told beforehand that money might 
be expected down here ? — ^I don't know as I told any- 
one. 

2406. You say it was the usual thing, aud you knew 
people expected it, and were asking it? — Many of them 
asked, and I told tiiem I knew nothing at present. 

2407. I suppose you told that either to Mr. Boberts 
or Mr. Hughes, or some of your principals? — Yes, I 
might have done. 

2408. Who to ? — ^I might have stated they were asking 
for money. 

2409. But who to ?— I might have told Mr. Hughes. 

2410. Did you tell Mr. Boberts?— No, I had very 
little conversation with Mr. Boberts. 

2411. Are yrm quite sure you never told Mr. Boberts^ 
— I am quite sure I never told Mr. Boberts. 

2412. Are you quite sure you are accurate in saying 
you had no conversation with him about any money 
coining down ? — I had no conversation with Mr. Boberts 
about any money coming down whatever. 

2413. Had you with Captain Boberts?— No, none 
whatever with Captain Boberts. 

2414. Are you sure of that ? — Yes. 

2415. Had you any conversation with either of them 
about money at all ? — Not about money matters at all. 

2416. And you never heard since, in any way, who 
this individual was, or where this money came from ? — 
No. 

2417. Now, besides this money, 1,000L, or whatever 
sum it was, and the money you received to pay for 
the houses, and the money you received to pay for 
the canvassers, the 246?. and 42Z. that you spoke of 
yesterday, and the 32Z. for Sandwich, have you received 
any moneys whatever in connexion with this election ? — 
I cannot recollect any ; I had some moneys from Mr. 
Hughes ; . he sent me sometimes to pay accounts or 
thiE^ like that for him, and I paid them and returned 
them to him receipted. 

2418. Have you received any considerable sum ? — ^Not 
that I am aware of. 

2419. Not that you are aware of, you say, but have 
you received any sum of money, such as 20Z. or 25^, 
besides those sums I have mentioned ? — I might have 
done. I really cannot tell from memory. 

2420. Did you distribute any other money whatever 
among voters ? — I had nothing to do with the distributing 
the money otherwise than as I said. 

2421. You distributed this among 20 people?— Yes, 
but not otherwise. 

2422. Had you anything to do with distributing any 
money till this money came which you have spoken of ? 
You tnow what I mean by "distributing," not paying 
bon& fide accounts. Had you anything to do witii pay- 
ing any money, directly or indirectly, for mere colourable 
employment or mere colourable work, to any voter 
beyond this sum you mentioned ? — I have no recollection 
of paying any. I had nothing to do with the other 
employment — the employment of messengers or any- 
thing like that. 

2423. Did you pay any money to any voter for his 
vote ? — Not that I am aware of. 

2424. Surely if you paid money to any voter for his 
vote you would know it ? — ^I liad nothing to do with the 
voters, merely the canvassers. 

2425. You do not seem to understand what I mean. 
Did you yourself personally pay, or had you indirectly 
anything to do with paying, any persons for their 
votes ?— I think not. 

2426. You think not?— I have no recollection of any. 
I had nothing to do with the voters. 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 



49 



2427. If yon had given any man axnr snm of money to 
vote for Mr. Roberts surely you would remember it ? — 
I have not ; I had nothing to do with the voters. 

2428. Po you say that you do not remember, or that 
you have not ? — I don't remember. 

2429. Do you say you have not given any ?— 'I don't 
believe I did give any to anyone. I had nothing to do 
with the voters. 

2430. It seems odd you should say, ''I don't remember 
" having done it," and ** I am not aware of it." Surely 
if you paid any man for his vote you would recollect it ? 

2431. Then surely you can say positively one way or 
the other, ** I did " or " I did not." If you did, there 
is really no harm in ^our saying so, because you have 
told us you have distributed a good deal, and a few 101, 
or 201, does not matter much ? — I really cannot recollect ; 
I would tell you if I knew. 

2432. Your boniL fide belief is that you did not dis- 
tribute or pay away any other money but what yon have 
told us of ?— ijuite so. 

2433. (Mr. Jeime.) Did you do any canvassing P— No. 

2434. Not yourself?— No. 

2435. I see you are put down in the list of canvassers 
as receiving 6^ ds. P — Yes. 

2436. Did you do any canvassing? — No. I merely 
assisted the others in canvassing. I assisted Mr. Hughes 
in going about and in going round to different places, 
showing him round, and cutting out the districts. 

2437. Did not you talk to people yourself P — No. I 
may have asked one or two if they would vote for Mr. 
Boberts, but I did not go into it. I took the envelopes 
out and returned the promises. 

2438. Did not any of the people you saw ask you for 
an>ihing ? — I told them I had nothing to do wi& that. 
I had nothing myself at the time, so I could not promise 
them. I had little to do with canvassing ; the principal 
part was those houses, to see that the bills were kept in 
the window. 

2439. You saw Mr. Hughes about as soon as he came 
down here p — I did. 

2440. And then you were about with him pretty con- 
stantly, I suppose ; you saw him every day ? — Yes, 
showing him the different places. 

2441. So you were in his company and in his sight, I 
suppose, pretty well every day, between the time he first 
came down and the time of the election P — Sometimes I 
did not see him, perhaps for a whole day or a couple of 
days, and then, perhaps, I had five minutes with I^ittj^ 
and I would not see him again, he would be busy in the 
committee room, and at night he would be attending 
those meetings. 

2442. Now did not Mr. Hughes give you to under- 
stand that it was possible money might come to you to 
be distributed? — ^At first he gave me to understand he 
was not going to spend any money at aU. 

2443. But afterwards ?— Afterwards he found he could 
not get on without it. 

2444. And then he found he had to spend money ? — 
He had to spend money in many wa3rs, such as flag 
poles, and putting them up. He objected to them 
being put up, and colours as welL 

2445. At first?— Yes. 

2446. And then he found that he could not get along 
without it? — ^Yes, he found he could not get along 
without it. 

2447. And in some way, as time went on, you found 
money would have to be spent, did you not ? — Yes, that 
money would have to be spent. 

2448. And you thought, I suppose, just before the 
election, that unless money was spent on it you would 
not have much of a chance ? — I think we should if we 
had known who we had got to contend with, but other- 
wise we should not. 

2449. And you talked to Mr. Hughes about this, and 
told him money wotdd have to be spent ? — I told hiTn it 
would be no use to contest it without money, not with 
any chance of success. 

2450. Did not Mr. Hughes tell you, when he found 
that out, tliat money would be forthcoming in due time ? 
— He might have done. I cannot speak for certainty. 

2451. Did not he say, "It will be all right before 
** the day comes," or something of that sort, or ** Never 
** you mind, there will be money enough before the 
" election comes off;" did not he say something of that 
sort to you ?— I cannot recollect. 

Q3334. 



2452. He might have?— He might have done. I. s.OUs 
cannot recollect. ^^_^ * 

2453. "When you saw this dark man come in with a 7 Oct. 1880. 

bag I suppose Vou guessed what he had come for?— 

He told me. He asked me if I was Mr. Olds, and I 

said, "Yes." ^ 

2454 And so you did not open the bag at once and 
count the money as you would have done if you had 
never heard a word about it before, I suppose?— I 
wanted to get rid of it as quick as I could. 

2455. You knew there was money in that bagP^Yes, 
he told me, and I am under the impression still that he 
might have said it was l,000i. I am stQl under that 
impression. Not counting it, it might have been more, or 
it might have been less, but I am under the impression 
he stated it was 1,0002. 

2456. You rather expected, did you not, that somehow 
or other money would come down just before the elec- 
tion P — I expected it would. 

2457. It is not the first time it has happened in 
Sandwich, is it, that on the day before the election 
money has come down?— I don't know. I had nothing 
to do with it before. 

2458. But by common report you have heard it is a 
thing that does sometimes happen P— I have heard it has 
been so for years ; that they are obliged to have money 
down. 

2459. So you rather thought that, on the Monday 
before the election, money would come from some- 
where P— Yes. 

2460. And when you found that you were the recipient 
you were not very much surprised? — I was rather 
surprised it came to me. I expected some money would 
come down from some source or other. 

2461. I suppose that in conversation with Mr. Hughes 
about wanting money, and your flnHing that money 
would have to be spent, he rather led you to suppose 
that money would come down, or you supposed that 
from what Mr. Hughes had said to youP— First of all 
he did not intend to spend money, then he found he 
must. He led me to suppose there would be money, 
but he objected to spending money on many occasions. 

2462. Unless it was absolutely necessary P— Yes. 

2463. When he found it was quite necessary, of 
course it had to be done P — Yes. 

2464. (Mr. Ttrnier,) Who did you expect that money 
would come to p — ^I had no idea. 

2465. (Mr. HolL) You have told us that a number of 
people about the streets used to teU you that they 
expected money, or asked you whether money was 
coining down, which led you to believe that they 
expected it ?— Many of them asked whether there was 
any money. 

2466. You told that to Mr. Hughes?— I told Mr. 
Hu^es that people were repeatedly asking for it 

2467. You told him that people were. asking you 
whether money would come down, and were expecting 
it ; you told him that, did you P— I might have done. 

2468. I think you told me before that you did?- 1 
think I did. 

2469. What did he say?— I cannot recollect what 
remark he made. 

2470. Did he say, "Never mind, that will be all ' 
right " p — He might have done so. 

2471. But did he. Have you any recollection ?— I 
cannot recollect the remark he made. 

2472. I do not want the precise words. When you 
told him that people were constantly asking you 
whether money was coming, or were expecting it, what 
did he say to you ; did he say anything to you, and if 
so, what did he say about itP— I cannot recollect the 
remark he made now. 

2473. Did he say anything that left that impression 
upon your mind ?— He merely substantiated what I said, 
that he thought he could not get on wil^out it. 

2474. When you told him people were ^^pecting 
money down? — Yes; many of them said it was a very 
hard winter ; they were very near starving at the time, 
and they asked me, ** Is not there something coming." 

2475. And you say you told hirn that P — Yes. 

2476. And he said he thought you could not get on 
without it P— Yes. 

2477. Did he say anything more ; did he say or inti- 
mate to you whether it would come P — ^Well, he might 
have said, ** No doubt there wiU be money down," but 
I cannot recollect what he said now, 

2478« Now one other question upon a omall matter 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMHIS6ION ; 



S. Olds. o(Mnparatively. I think you went to engage a house 
/m^iIa/i iViA **T,nr({ W&rden." kei>t bv a man named 



7 Oct 1880. 



called the *^Lord Warden," kept by a man named 
Long P— I did. 

2479. I think you saw his wife, did you not ?— I did. 

2480. And engaged the house for 6Z. P— I oflfered her 
61 ; she refused it. 

2481. Did you not engage it for 5Z. P—No, she 
wanted 20L I did not engage it at the time. 

2482. Did you engage it afterwards ?— Yes. 

2483. When you paid the other people you did not 
pay her P— No, she refused at first 5L ; me wanted 20Z. 

2484. That is before you engaged it?— Yes. 

2485. When you went to engage it she wanted 20L ?— 
Yes. 

2486. Afterwards you engaged it?— Yes. 

2487. And when you paid the other people you did 
not pay her P — No ; she was paid some days afterwards. 
We left the house out. Mr. Hughes went and paid it. 

2488. I kn6w he did. Did not she oome to you and 
ask you why you had not paid her ?— Yes, and I told her 
it was because she refused. 

2489. Did not you tell her it was because her husband 
had no vote P— I did not ; I did not know whether he had 
a vote or not. 

2490. Are you quite certain P— I am quite certain of 
thai 

2491. You know what she has sworn P— I do, and I 
know it is false. 

2492. Did not you tell her the reason you had not come 
to pay her along with the rest was because her husband 
had no vote?— I did nothing of the kind. I left word 
with her for her husband to come and see me in the 
morning. Her husband was out at the time attending 
some meeting. I left word, if he felt disposed or 
inclined to let the house for 6Z. he was to come and see 
me before 10 o'clock the following morning. That was 
on the 3rd I called upon her, and she refused. They 
did not come to me until the following Saturday, and 
then fiJie came to know why I had not paid her. I told 
her, for the very reason that she wanted 20Z., and I 
reported it to Mr. Hughes, and he pooh-poohed the 
idea, and struck the name out. 

2493. Did not you tell her that the name of the hotel 
had been scratched out, because her husband had no 
vote P — ^No, it was on account of her wanting 20Z. 

2494-5. Did not she say to you, *• A contract is 
" a contract " P— Yes. 

2496. And did notyou and Mr. Hughes afterwards go 
and pay her P — ^Mj. Hughes said 

2497. She did say, " A contract is a contract *' ? — 
Yes, she might have done, but there was no contract, 
though she said so. Mr. Hughes said, if she was willing 
to accept the 5Z. he would go and look at the house, and 
pay her, and on the Saturday night I went with 
Mr. Hughes and paid her the 5Z. She at the same time 
told me that her bill was something like 270Z. for 
Leamington. 

2498. You told us yesterday that you changed some 
cheques P — ^Yee. 

2499. Do you remember what amount they were 
for, and for whom P— I changed two or three cheques for 
Mr. Hughes. 

2500. Can you give the amounts ? — ^I cannot 

2501. About 50L or 100/., or what?— I should say it 
would be about 70Z., or something like that. I think it 
was two cheques I changed, one for 40L and one for 
50/., or something like that ; it may be 907. I cannot 
say the amounts now. 

2502. Two cheques you mean?— Yes, Mr. Hughes 
wanted cash, and I gave him the cash, and paid those 
cheques in. 

2603. He gave you the cheques, and did you draw the 
amounts out of your bank, or where? — Out of my 
bank. 

2504. You drew a cheque on your bankers ? — Yes. 
He had not sufficient money, not sufficient in the bank. 

2505. And you gave him gold for the cheque he gave ? 
—Yes. 

2506. And you think it was either 70Z. or 90L 
altc^ether ? — Yes, it may be something like that. 

2507. Was the cheque drawn payable to you? — ^I 
think so. 



2508. You say it was two cheques, 30Z. and 40Z., or 
40/. and 50/. ?— I should think about 70/., or else 90/. 
altogether. 

2509. What were the dates of those cheques; when 
was it you changed those cheques for him ? — I know I 
drew 502. out of the bank. I banked them. 

2510. Did you draw the 50/. out of your bank here 
the same day you gave the money to him ? — ^Yes. 

2511. The same day you gave it him ?— Yes. 

2512. {Mr. Jeune.) Why did you understand he asked 
you to change the cheques ; why could not he go to 
the bank himself? — He had not got sufficient in the 
bank. 

2513. Did he tell you that? — I believe they were paid 
into the bank, and there was not sufficient. 

2514. On what bank was his cheque drawn ? — It was 
drawn on his own bank; Mr. Hughes' own bank, I 
think. He had a banking account here. 

2515. And gave you a cheque for it ?— ^Yes. 

2516. I suppose you paid his cheque in through your 
own account ? — ^Yes, and drew one out for him, because 
there was not sufficient to meet his cheques. 

2517. But why could not he have got the money 
straight if he gave a cheque that you paid into your 
bank, I tiiink, on the same day. Did he tell you why it 
was he wanted yon to change the dieque ? — He wanted 
the cash. 

2518. I suppose so, but did he tell you why he did 
not draw the cash himseK direct, but as^ed you to 
change the cheques?— I think he had not sufficient 
balance at the bank. 

2519. Did he say that ?— I think the banker told me 
he had not sufficient to cover the cheques. I drew the 
cheque and held his cheques over for a day or two. 

2520. How long did you hold them over ?— A day or 
two it may be. 

2521. Have you got a banking account P — Yes. 

2522. And a pass book p— Yes. 

2523. You can find out the date when you presented 
these cheques, cannot you p— It would not be mentioned 
in the pass book. 

2524. Have you your pass book here P— Yes, I have. 

2525. Just let us have a look at it?— There it is 
{handing same to the Commissiorifirs), 

2526. You say you drew a cheque out and got the 
cash for it. That would be a cheque drawn for vour- 
selfP-Yes. ^ 

2527. There is " May 21st, self 50/. "—that would be 
after the election ? — Yes. 

2528. Do you remember what day you paid Mr. 
Hughes* cheques into your bank ?— Well, it would be 
after that. I held them over. 

2529. You say you drew a cheque for 50/., and another 
for 40/., as I understand? — I had two. I think I paid 
one with cash I had in hand, and drew a cheque for 50/. 
to make up the remainder. 

2530. Do you remember paying in any other money at 
the same time. On the 24th of May there is a sum of 
177/. 12«. paid in P— Yes, that would be the two cheques, 
and also the cheque for the cab hire, I fh^-nl^ 

(Mr, Jeune») That might be so — very likely it is. 

2531. {Mr. Holl.) Now one more question or two. 
What was your bill for cab and carriage hire ?— I really 
cannot tell you from memory — 70/. something. 

2532. 707. odd ?— Yes. 

2533. Is that the whole of it ?— Yes. 

2534 Have you got anything showing what days cabs 
were supplied, and the number ?— Yes, my books will 
show that, and where they went to. 

2535. Did you supply cabs during the whole time 
Mr. Roberts was here ? — Yes. 

2536. Were they being used from day to day ? — Yes, 
sometimes to Sandwich ; sometimes to Wtdmer. 

2537. How many carriages did you have out at this 
election time ? — I think I had one day 12. 

2538. That was the polling day?— Yes. 

2539. What would be the average number out the days 
before — from the 5th up to the 18th P — Sometimes five 
or six ; various numbers. When they wanted one they 
went and got it. 

2540. And twelve on the polling day, you say?— I 
think there were twelve ; I will not be positive. 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



51 



John Thomas Outwin, sworn and examined. 



2541. 
-Yea 



(Mr.Jetme,) Yon are a wine merchant, I think P 



2542. Now when did you first begin to have anything 
to do with this election? — I should think about the 
10th May ; the 8th or IDth May. 

2543. Was that the day Sir Julian Goldsmid came 
down P — ^No, he came down some days after thai 

2544. Two or three days afterwards, was it P — Yes. 

2545. How did you come to have anything to do with 
it ; who employed you P — No one employed me ; simply, 
when Mr. Hugessen was raised to the peerage a vacancy 
was created, and we called the Libeial Association to- 
gether to consider what would have to be done. 

2546. You are a member of the Liberal Association P — 
Yes. 

2547. Is there a committee of the Liberal Association P 
—Yes. 

2548. Is not the Association a standing thing P— Yes, 
it has been a permanent thing for some years. 

2549. And there is a standing committee P — Yes, a 
committee appointed from time to time. 

2550. Who are the members of that committee ; first 
of all, who is the president P — Mr. Cottew. 

2551. And who are the members of the committee ? — 
I cannot remember the names at this moment ; I can 
give them to you, if you want them.* 

2552. Is there a little book of them P — Yes, there is, 
but I have not it before me now. 

2553. You can get it p— Yes. 

2554. Then let us have a copy of it, please P— .1 will. 

2555. You were one of the people that met Sir Julian 
Goldsmid, I think ? — No, not in the first instance ; I met 
him at Deal. I was one of those who met him at Deal, 
but he was at Sandwich before he came here. 

2556. Now, you acted in the election in Deal and 
Walmer, did not you P— Deal only. 

2557. And you engaged some public-houses, did not 
you P— At Deal. 

2558. Who told you to engage them P— I forget exactly ; 
I am not quite sure whether it was Mr. Edwards. It 
was an understood thing we should engage them. I 
think Mr. Edwards told me, to the best of my recol- 
lection. 

2559. You engaged the Foresters' committee room P — 
No. 

2560. Well, the "Foresters' Arms"?— No, I did not 
engage that. 

2561. I see there is down in the Deal account, 
" Foresters' committee room, 7/. " ? — I did not engage 
it, but I daresay it would be a committee" room. I did 
not engage it myself. 

2562. Now the '* Port Arms," what about that P— That 
was a committee room. 

2563. And you engaged that ? — ^Yes. 

2564. When did vou engage it P — Some time during the 
week prior to the election. 

2565. Was there a committee room there P — Well, it 
was called a committee room ; of course it was not 
required ; we did not want a committee room. 

2566. Who is the landlord of the " Port Arms " P— 
There is no landlord there ; it is kept by a female. 

2567. 161. lOs. I see is what you paid p— I did not pay 
anything. 

2568. Has not that been paid yet P — Nothing is paid ; 
I never paid anything at aU. 

2569. That claim has not been paid P — ^No. 

2570. Did you arrange with the people at the ** Port 
Arms " what they were to be paid P — ^Yes, 21. 10*. simply 
for accommodation ; we had a lot of voters round the 
neighbourhood, and we might perhaps want to see tJiem 
occasionally^, and we arranged we should meet them there ; 
they were m the habit of meeting there. 

2571. There is a place called the *' Friendly Port " P— 
Yes. 

- 2372. Did you arrange with them P — No. 

2573. There is a claim of SI for that P— Yes. 

2574. You did not arrange what they were to have P — 
No. 

2575. It was simply that jfou were to have a room 
there, and they were to be paid p — Yes. 

2576. Then George Havward, what is he P— He is a 
hfdidresserin Beach Street; it is a private house. 



2577. What was that hired for P— A committee room. 

2578. Did you hire it P— Yes. 

2579. What were you to pay him P— 5Z. for whatever 
time the election was cm. 

2580. Then the "Clarendon Tap " at 7Z. P— Yes. 

2581. And the *• Jolly Gardeners " 5L P— That is right. 

2582. The *' Railway Tavern " seven guineas p— I did 
not take that. 

2583. You have nothing to do with that P— -No. 

2584. The ** Norfolk Arms " 5L P— That is ngbt 

2585. The ** Maxton Arms " 5Z. P— Yes. 

2586. You arranged with those for bl P— Yes, and 
those are paid. 

2587. Then the " Victoria " 5L P— Yes. 

2588. Thft«Fox"P— Yes. 

2589. And the «* Deal Castle " P— Yes. 

2590. The "Compasses"?— Yes. 

2591. And the "Deal Cutter "P~Yes. 

2592. Which of those have been paid? — There is 
eleven out of the list have been paid. 

2593. (Mr, Boll.) hi each?— Yes, except one which is 
4L ; 54i. is the amount, as there are ten fives and one 
four. 

2594. (Mr, Jeurie,) Now did you engage the ** Tally- 
ho " ? — Yes. 

2595. Is that paid?— Yes. 

2596. And Clayson's ?— That is paid ; I did not pay it 
personally. It was paid ; I gave the money for it. 

2597. You engaged it?— Yes. 

2598. The " Castle Inn " ?— That is paid. 

2599. The " White Horse " P— No, that is not paid. 

2600. The " Shark " P— That is not paid. 

2601. Did you engage the " White Horse " P— Yes. 

2602. And the " Shark " P— Yes. 

2603. Did you engage the "Park Tavern " P— No. 

2604. Did you engage Pritehard's " Eagle " ?— Yes. 

2605. Did you engage it for lOZ. P— No. 

2606. Did you make any bargain with the "Eagle" 
at all ?— No. I presume it wasSie same as the others. 
I took it for granted it was the same. There was some 
claim he sent in. I am not sure what it was ; that might 
perhaps make it 10/. 

2607. King is 5L, I think?— Yes; he is next door to 
my own place. 

2608. What is it, a public-house P— No, a private 
house. 

2609. You took that, did you?— Yes; we were so 
crowded with people we were obliged to have a room 
extra. 

2610. In some places you took private houses instead 
of public-houses ?— Yes ; two or three ; we could not 
get enough public-houses ; they were all gone with a 
clean sweep. 

2611. What did you want private houses for?— 
Merely for convenience ; we wanted rooms. 

2612. What for?— Private purposes. 

2613. Did you use those rooms ? — Yes. 

2614. What for ?— For people to go into. 

2615. There was nothing to be got to drink there ? — 
No, they did not want drink ; ,it was not a ques- 
tion of drink; it was more a question of money than 
drink. 

2616. Then Woodward, an assistant. Did you engage 
Woodward ? — Woodman is it ? 

2617. Yes, it is P— I did. 

2618. What is heP— An auctioneer and agent at 
Greenwich. 

2619. What did jrou engage him for P— Simply to come 
down and assist us in working the election. We wanted 
him more particularly for public-houses, to get the bills 
about. We had no bills about, and he got the bills out 
At the suggestion of Sir Julian Goldsmid, I telegraphed 
to Mr. Woodman to come down. 

2620. What did you give him?— I did not give him 
anyt hing at aU. I simply telegraphed to him . My in- 
structions were from Sir Julian hmiself to telegraph to 
Woodman to come down. 

2621. Did Mr. Edwards give you authority to do these 
things, or did you do them out of your own head P— I had 

gerf ect liberty to work as I liked with regard to pnblio- 
ouses. 



J. T, Ouiwin. 
7 Oct. 1880. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



/. T. Outwim 2622. Then Mr. Edwards gave yon the right to engage 

as many publio-honses a^ yon tnonght proper P — ^Yes ; 

7 Oct 1880. bnt I knew myself very few were to be had. A few had 
— — ^— stnok ont, but most were gone. 

2623. And also to engage as many private honses as 
you thought necessary P — Oh no ; that was simply my 
own discretion. 

2624. Did yon pay any of these things yourself P Two 
have ^been paid, I see ; did you pay^them P — ^Which 
twoP 

2625. It is more than two; bU. has been paid for 
pablio-houses ; did you pay that P — I paid all but one or 
two. 

2626. In the same way you paid Woodman, I suppose P 
—Yes. 

2627. 17Z. P— No. I think that was guessed at. I 
think the refd amount was IBL Sa. The amount was 
guessed at; I could not exactly remember what I paid 
him, but I see since it was 15L Sa, 

2628. But you paid that P-— I paid him. 

2629. Who gave you the money for itP— I did not 
have tilie money ; I paid it myself ; I was given instruc- 
tions to pay him. 

2630. Did you pay it out of your own pocket P — Yes, 
I did. 

2681. Now, what sums of monev have you received P— 
Between 1,100L and 1,2002. I think the real amount is 
1,126L 

2632. When did you receive it P— I received 50Z. some 
time during the week prior to the election ; 502. and 252. 
That is all I had during the week ; the remainder I had 
on the Monday prior to the election. 

2633. From whom did you receive that 502. and 252. P 
— iVom Mr. Edwards. 

2634. Bv cheque P— No, in gold ; that was intended 
for the public-houses ; they would have payment before- 
hand, many of them. 

2635. You got 50 sovereigns and 25 sovereigns P— 
Yes. 

2636. What did you do with that money P—I spent it 
on the public-houses. 

2637. What ]public-houses did you pay P—I can men- 
tion the names if I had the list. 

2638. The " Jolly Gardeners " P—Yes, that was 62. . 

2639. The ** Norfolk Arms " P—Yes, 52. 
3640. The "Marton Arms " P—Yes, 52, 

2641. Here is a bill for 542. ; did you pay that P— 
Yes. 

2642. And you paid that with the 50 sovereigns, as 
far as it went P — Yes. It was all paid at the same time ; 
they were paid during the course of the election. 

2643. Now, what did you do with the other 252. P— 
That comes in the general account ; I left that over ; the 
252. went in with the larger amount 

2644. On Monday, you say, you got 1,1002. P— 1,0502., 
I think it was. 

2645. I thought it was 1,1002. P— That is including the 
first 502. 

2646. How was that given to yon ? — ^In gold, 

2647. By Mr. Edwards?— No. Mr. Edwards did not 
give it me. I sent to town for it, and of course it came 
up as I wanted it. 

2648. You sent to town and the money came to you P 
— It came by a messenger. 

2649. You sent a messenger to the town for it P — ^Yes. 

2650. You had arranged with Mr. Edwards before that 
you were to get it P — ^Yes. It was only decided about 
the Saturday to fight it out. 

2651. Edwards told you on Saturday ihat you might 
send up for 1,1002., did he P — I think it was Saturd^, 
but I win not be positive. It might be Monday. We 
never paid any tiU Monday. 

2652. You had some conversation with Mr. Edwards, 
and he told you you might send for that amount P — He 
did not tell me ttiat amount. 

2653. Well, send for a sum P—Yes. I found out after- 
wards what the amount was accidentally. 

2654. But you knew it was going to be a large sum P 
— Oh yes. 

2655. Did Mr. Edwards tell you where the money was 
coming from ? — No. 

2656. How did it come about; did he say to you, 
** n you send up in the afternoon, you will get some 
" money " P—I could not remember what he told me. 
I know he told me I was to get it oq the Monday, 



2657. How long had you known that money was 
coming P—I did not know xmip. a day or two before. I 
do not think it was decided in fact until a day or two 
before whether we should fight it on the purity system 
or by bribery. "^ •^ 

2658. I will not use the obnoxious word, but you 
decided it was not to be on the purity system P—Yes 
that was the only thing. ' 

2659. Having decided that, did you not expect that 
the means would come to enable you to conduct the 
contest P—Yes. 

2660. And you sent someone round to Mr. Edwards, 
and he brought you back this money in sovereigns P— 
Yes. 

2661. What did you do with it P—I gave it away to 
different people as they wanted it. 

2662. To what j^eople ? — (After referring to some 
pa^8,) That is the telegram I sent to Mr. Woodman, 
and that is the list (handing the same to the Commissioners). 

2663. Before going to that subject we were talking 
about, let me ask you this. Before Sir Julian came 
down, you had negociations with other persons as to 
whether they would stand or not P — Yes. 

2664. I do not know that it is necessary to mention 
the names, but there were two or three otiber gentlemen, 
as I gather from these telegrams, with whom you were 
in communication P — Quite so. 

2665. None of them were eventually accepted P — No. 

2666. Why were they not ?— It did not seem to suit 
the party, I suppose ; I do not know exactly why. 

2667. Was it not because they were not prepared to 
spend the money P — I think one gentleman did come 
down, but when he went to Sandwidi, he found it would 
be a very strong contest, fmd he preferred to retire. 

2668. That was Sir John Adye, of whom we have 
heard P — No, another gentleman. 

2669. Was any communication made with them as to 
what the expenses of the contest would be P — That I do 
not know ; of course I did not see them ; it might have 
been, but not from us ; it very likely would be the case. 

2670. I see there is a telegram here (there is no harm 
in mentioning it) about Mr. Philip Salomons P— Quite 
so. I telegraphed myself to him. I telegraphed to Mr. 
Finnis, at Dover, first, and he sent me his address. 

2671. Do you know whether any communication was 
made to him as to what the necessary expenses of the 
contest would be P — I do not know. He came to Sand- 
wich, but I did not see him. 

2672. Do you know whether he was or was not accepted 
as a candidate P— No, I do not. 

2673. Who negociated with Mr. Philip Salomons, do 
you know p — ^I do not know who met him at Sandwich. 
I should think Mr. Emmerson, or some of the leading 
parties at Sandwich ; I do not know ; I could not say. 

2674. I see there is a telegram from Jones of Dover to 
Mr. Hayward of DeaL Was Mr. Hayward the person 
who was communicating with Mr. Stanhope p— No. I 
suppose the Dover people were anxious to know 
whether Mr. Stanhope would stand for DeaL I sup- 
pose that was the object of it — ^the proprietors ^of the 
Dover papers. 

2675. Was Mr. Frank Marshall one of the persons 
who was proposed to stand P — No, he was the secretary to 
Mr. Davis at Si Peter's, a gentleman who contested 
the borough at the general election. 

2676. What was he coming down about P — Of course I 
wrote to him to know if Mr. Davis would stand the 
contest. 

2677. That went off, and Mr. Davis did not come P — 
No, he was not invited in fact. 

2678. I see there is a telegram here from Woodman, 
who you ;told me just now you brought down. Wood- 
man lives at Greenwich, does he not ? — I am not quite 
sure; either Greenwich or Woolwich. 

2679. What is Mr. Woodman P — He is an auctioneer, 
surveyor, and public-house agent. 

2680. What did he come down for P — To assist 
generally in the election. I sent for him at the sug- 
gestion of Sir Julian. I did not know the man at all 
until he came down. I telegraphed to him, and that is 
the reply you have there. 

2681. I see he came down on the 14th May? — Very 
likely. I do not know the date. 

2682. Did he come down on the Friday, do you know p 
— ^I could not say the date. 

2683. There is a telegram from him, " Yours received 



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MINUTES OF EVIDBNOE. 



53 



" Will be down this afternoon "?— That is the same 
date. 

2684. Why did you telegraph to Woodman to oome P 
— At the suggestion of Sir Juhan. 

2685. Sir Julian suggested that you should telegraph 
to Mr. Woodman to oome down ? — Quite so. 

2686. Did you telegroph ?— Immediately, and that 
telegram is the reply to it. 

2687. Did you know Mr. Woodman before P— No, I 
never heard of him. 

2688. You simply telegraphed to an unknown person, 
and told him to oome down ? — Quite so. 

2689. Did you tell him that Sir Julian wished it ?— 
No, not at alL I supposed he understood thai 

2690. How long did Woodman stay P— Four or Ave 
days. There are two of them. 

2691. Did Mr. Woodman bring that money down 
from London ? — ^No, he had nothing at all to do with 
that 

2692. Did Mr. Edwards teU you where the money 
came from ? — ^No. 

2693. All Mr. Edwards told you was that he would 
have money ?— Just so. 

2694. You have told us you got this money, and I 
trhink you were on the point of telling me to whom you 
distributed it. Is this the list P— That is the list 

2695. 1,136?. 108. 6i., I see the total is P— That is 
about it 

2696. It is headed "Amounts paid." Lambert and 
Marsh per Warner, 150L Who are Lambert and 
Marsh ? — They are two Deal boatmen. 

2697. And who is Warner ?— A pilot 

2698. You gave Warner 150Z. to give to Lambert and 
to Marsh ? — Yes, I knew he wanted it. I knew that 
was the amount agreed upon to pay Warner, so I gave 
it to him, and he took it to them. 

2699. You had agreed with Lambert and Marsh 
beforehand P — I had not, but Warner had. 

2700. I suppose that had been arranged before the 
Monday ?— Yes, the day before probably. 

2701. That they were to have 150Z. p— Yes. 

2702. You knew therefore before the Monday that 
there would be money wanted, and you made arrange- 
ments ? — Yes, it was the day before, I think. I would 
not be quite positive, but it was a very short time 
before. 

2703. You arranged with Lambert and Marsh that 
they were to have 150Z. ? — I did not myself personally. 
Warner arranged with them. I knew what the arrange- 
ment was ; of course he told me. 

2704. And you gave Warner the money ? — Yes. 

2705. What were Lambert and Marsh to do with it, 
to distribute itp— They were to distribute it among a 
number of voters. 

2706. Did you know the names of the voters ?— No, 
I did not. I gave the list to Mr. Lewis's agents. 

2707. Upon what date did you give this 150Z. to 
Warner to give to Lambert and Majrsh ? — On Monday, 
about six or seven o'clock in the evening. It was the 
Monday previous to the election. The election was on 
the Tuesday, and I gave it to him on the previous 
Monday. 

2708. It was all in sovereigns, I suppose ?— Yes, all 
in gold. 

2709. W. Watts, 50Z. Who is Mr. Watts P—He- 
keeps the ** Bail way " Tavern, just opposite the station 
gate. 

2710. Was that money which he was to distribute ? — 
Yes. 

2711. Did you give him that on the Monday previous 
to the election P — On the Monday. 

2712. Did you know to what men he was going to 
give it ?— Yes. 

2713. Did he give you a list of the names ? — He gave 
a list of the names. He run through the register to 
see that all the names were on it, and they were then 
passed on to the committee room. 

2714. Did Lambert and Marsh g^ve Warner a list of 
the names of persons they were going to distribute the 
money to ? — Yes. 

2715. Have you that list; I gave it to Mr. Lewis's 
agent during the petition inquiry ; there were several of 
them. 

2716. You gave it to Mr. George Lewis's agent who 
was down here P — Yes, we wanted to elect our man, and 



7 Oct. 1880. 



instead of having the people we bribed we wanted to get J' T. OtUwtn. 
the others. They brought some names to him. I knew 
the people we had hold of and it was no use summoning 
them. 

2717. There was a list made out by Lambert and 
Marsh of the persons to whom they were going to give 
money, and afco a list of the people to whom Watts was 
going to give money P — Quite so. 

2718. F. Warner, 25Z. I suppose that is the same 
Mr. Warner P— Yes. 

2719. He was to distribute that, I suppose P — Yes. 

2720. Did he give you a list P — No, no list at alL 

2721. He was to distribute that as he thought proper P 
— ^Yes, according to his own discretion. 

2722. May I take it that all these sums in the list 
were distributed by you on the Monday evening P— No, 
some on the next morning. We had to sit up all night 
to go through the list There were many names came 
in, but thev were not on the register at all, so we had 
to anal^ tnem as they came in, and then pay in accord- 
ance with the voting. 

2723. Chittenden, 27^. Who is Mr. Chittenden and 
where does he live P — He is a builder ; he lives in Beach 
Street 

2724. Did he give you a list P— Yes. 

2725. That you handed over, I suppose, in the same 
way P— I think so. 

2726. Reynolds. 15^. ?— Yes, there were three names 
there. 

2727. Gibbons, 36Z. Who is Mr. Gibbons P— A builder. 

2728. Did he give you a list P— Yes. 

2729. What sort of sum did each voter get P— The 
price we wanted to give them was SI each, and the 
remainder afterwards, but a good manv of them were 
too artful ; they would not take the 3/., mey would have 
5Z. ; that was the recognised price. 

2780. 3^. is what you wanted to give them, but some 
wanted a little more P— Some would have 41. and some 
would not move without 5^. They said they ought to 
have the same as the public-houses, which was 5L 

2731. Finnis, 4Sl Who is Mr. PinnisP — He is a 
tavern-keeper in Beach Street, the ** Fox" inn. 

2732. He gave you a list too, I suppose P — Yes, 
16 voters. That list I gave Mr. Lewis's agent, because 
they wanted particular boatmen. 

2733. Philpott Where does Mr. Philpott live P— I 
forget ; I cannot remember who that is at the moment. 
Is 3iat 12Z. ? 

2734. Yes ; Philpott, 12^. p— I do not remember just 
now what it was. I can ascertain who it is. 

2735. I daresay you will be able to remember by-and- 
bye P— Yes. 

2736. Brown, 129^. Then there are put three sums, 
30Z., 75^., and 34^ Did he have it in three different 
sums P — He would have it as you see it there. 

2737. Did he get that the same evening or the next 
morning, or partly at one time and partly at another ? — 
The principfQ portion was given to him on the following 
morning, tne morning of the election. 

2738. He gave you a list, of course, as they were 
largish sums ?— Yes. 

2739. What is he P — He is a farmer and market 
gardener. 

2740. Norris, 45Z. P— I think you will find there are 
two Norris's. 

2741. Yes, there are two Norris's ; one is 45i. and the 
other is 30^. ; who are they P — One of them is a carpenter ; 
he lives in Wellington road ; and the other is in the 
employment of Mr. Cullen, an ironmonger here. I do 
not know which is the 45^. and which is the 30Z. 

2742. They gave you lists, 1 suppose P — Yes, we 
would not pay tiie money without. 

2743. Harris,* 26^ ; that is in one sum of 15^. and one 
sum of 11^. P — Yes, that is right. 

2744. I suppose, having given you a list, he brought 
other names and said, ** I have so many more people" P 
— No, I had not sufficient money to pay them all at 
once, so I had to get a fresh instalment. 

2745-6. I thou^t you got the 1,130^. in one sump— No, 
not all at once ; it was all the same day, but at different 
periods of the day. For instance, the last amount I did 
not get until about 11 or 12 o'clock at night 

2747. Did you send two or three times to Mr. Edwards p 
—Yes. 



2748. As you wanted more money you kept sending ? 
—Yes. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



J. T, Outum. 2749, They kept ooming in and you kept sending to 

Mr. Edwards to get more money as you wanted it ? — 

7 Oct 1880. Yes. 

2750. Hancock, 3Z. Who is Mr. Hancock?— He is a 

fly proprietor. 

2751. That, I suppose, was to be given to one voter P — 
Yes. 

2752. George Potts, two sums of 20Z. each. Where 
does Mr. Potts live ?— -Gladstone Boad. 

2753. He, I suppose, gave you a list ? — Yes, they all 
gave lists, every one ; tiiere were two who did not give 
Bsts. 

2754. I only see one here. Two did not give lists ? — 
Yes, three I think. 

2755. One was Warner P — One was Warner ; and 
there are two down below; you will get the names 
presently. 

^2756. Where does Mr. Allen live ?— In Peter Street. 

2757. Mr. Kiley, 24?. ; where does he live P— -Middle 
Street. 

2758. Mr, Ramell, 36^ ; where does he live P— High 
Street. He is a grocer. 

2759. Pritchard, 30?. P— He is a tavern keeper near 
the station. 

2760. Then Cox is put down at 5?., and Hobday at 
12?. Who is Mr. Cox ; he got 5?. P — ^I do not know 
where he lives ; I know the man. 

2761. Do you know his Christian name p — I think it 
is Charles. 

2762. Hobday 12?. ; where does he live, and where is 
he p — He is a farmer. I do not know where he lives. 

2763. Cannot you remember where Hobday lives ? — 
No, I am not quite certain. It is somewhere m Middle 
DeaL I am not quite sure ; somewhere in the outskirts 
if the town. 

2764. H. Millen, 30?. ; what is he. There were two 
Milieus ; one is H. and the other is J. ; and they both 
had the same sum. Where do they livep — One lives 
close to the railway station. I do not know where the 
other lives. 

2765. Do you know what both of them are ? — Pilots. 

2766. S. Ealph, he had 96?. ; where does he live?— • 
At the ** Forrester Inn." 

2767. Here are three small sums ; Pettit, 1?. ; King, 
1?. 17s. 6d., and Cox, 10«. What are those payments 
made for P-^I think they were for special messengers, 
or something of that kind ; for some services rendered. 

2768. Then there is Treemore, 3?. P— That would be a 
single payment. 

2769. Lee, 12?. ; where does Mr. Lee live P — Custom 
House Lane. 

2770. Do you know what Lee is P— Ho is assistant to 
a grocer. 

2771. Woodman's account, 15?. 8s. ; is that what you 
paid to Mr. Woodman ? — Yes. 

2772. Norris, 6?. That is a third Mr. Norris ?— No, 
it is one of the other two. That would be on the day of 
the election. As to those small amounts, I could not 
say who received the money in the hurry and skurry of 
the moment. 

2773. There are two Norris's P — ^Yes, two. 

2774. And this was one or the other of them p — Yes, 
one or the other of them. 

2775. Hougham and Brown, per Cox, 8?. Who is 
Mr. Hougham P — I do not know which one it was. 
There are several of them ; I cannot say which it was at 
the present moment. It was paid to Cox for tibem. 

2776. Who is Mr. Brown ?— I do not remember. 

2777. There were people to whom Cox was to give the 
money P — ^Yes. 

2778. The next one is Denne, per Bedwell, 5?. Who 
is Mr. Bedwell p — A farmer living in the outskirts of the 
town. 

2779. Then there is Robinson, 4?. Who is he, and 
where does he live ? — I think he keeps a tavern down 
this High Street. I presiune that is the one. 

2780. Redman, 15?. What is heP— He is another 
tavern keeper in Beach Street. 

2781. What house does Mr. Redman keep ; do you 
know p— The " Rose and Crown," 

2782. Then there is Mr. Bishop, 12?. P—I do not 
remember who that is just at the moment. 

2783. Then A. R. Willey, 5?. P— He is a painter. 

2784. Where does he live p— In Beach Street. 

2785. Then there is Norris again, 8?. ; is that one of 



the other Norris's P— That would be the same one ; one 
or the other of them, I could not say which. 

2786. They came to you once or twice P— Yes, several 
times. According as they got more people they came 
for money. 

2787. Pettit, 3?. ; he is a voter himself, I suppose P 

Yes, he would be sure to be a voter, or he would not 
have the money. 

2788. He seems to have been contented with 3?.? — 
Yes ; but he expected the other. I think he had some 
more besides ; he expects the other at all events. 

2789. Where does Mr. Pettit livep— I do not know at 
all where he lives. I fancy he used to be a policeman. 

2790. Theobald ; where does he live P—I do not know 
where he lives. 

2791. Do you know his Christian name P— No. 

2792. 5?. he had P— Yes. 

2793. Do you not remember where he lives P — No, I 
do not know where he lives. 

, 2794. Do you know what trade he is P— Yes, he is at 
the "Brewery." 

2795. Then there is committee rooms, 54?., and then 
sundry amounts as per book, 35?. 15s. They are in 
this list, but there are several hieroglyphics p — You will 
find the cypher on one side, and the plain the other. 

2796. The figures are the explanation p— Yes. On the 
left hand side you will find the explanation. 

2797. Joe Brown, he had 9?. P— You will find all that 
is in the detailed account which you had before. Those 
were paid on the day of the election. 

2798. Do you mean these amounts are the same as in 
that listp — Yes, there are a lot of small amoxmts not 
entered in that sheet. You will find them all under 5?. 

2799. There is Cavell 27. ; what was that for P— That 
was for his vote no doubt. 

2800-1. Then there is Mr. Norris, but he will be in 
he other sheet. Then there is Mr. Budd 3?., I do not 
t.Tn'nk he is dowu here P — ^No, he would not be down very 
likely. 

2802. Who is he P—I do not know who he is. 

2803. I daresay we shall find him in the register of 
voters P — ^Yes, he is sure to be down there. 

2804. Do you happen to know his Christian name ? — 
No. 

2805. Then there is Mr. Redsull, per Lee, 3?. P— Lee 
would pay that amount to him. 

2806. Who is Mr. Redsull P—I do not know, there are 
several of them, I do not know who it would be. 

2807. Mr. Flanders, per Mr. Lee 3?. ; who is Mr. Flan- 
ders p — ^I do not know who he is. 

2808. You gave the mcmey to Mr. Lee, and Mr. Lee 
gave them the money P — Just so. 

2809. I see there is 12?. on this account down to Lee. 
Would that 12?. include this amount do you know P—I 
do not toiow, but I should think it would. 

2810. What happened was this, that Lee came to you 
and asked you for 3/. for Flanders P — ^As they asked for 
money they received it as long as it lasted. 

2811. Then there is J. B. Millen 10?. I do not see 
him down here P— That is Millen. That is in the other 
one. 

2812. Then there is Bob Redman. Where does Bob 
Redman live P—I think it is in Middle Street. 

2813. He had 3?. apparently ?— Yes. 

2814. Then there is Jordan per Reynolds 5?. Have 
we had Mr. Re^Tiolds before?— Yes 15?., two sums 10?. 
and 5?. 

2815. King 1?. 15«. P— That is entered before. He 
was a messenger, I wanted one specially for me. 

2816. Then there is 31 to George Town, who is he p— 
A chimney sweep. 

2817. Where does he live P—I do not know where he 
lives. 

2818. Then there is Roberts 3Z. ; who is Mr. Roberts? 
—I do not know, it was paid through some person, but 
I could not say who it was. 

2819. Then there is Roberts again with the name of 
Cox before it, which I suppose means that you paid it 
through Cox P — Yes, it must be so, because the names 
are generally put down of those who paid them. 

2820. Abbott 5?. P— Yes. 

2821. Pettit 4?. p— That is another Pettit 

2822. There are two Pettit's are there ?— Yes. 

2828. Woodland 15?. I cannot make out what sum he 



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MINTTTES OP EVIBENCB. 



56 



leoeived except it is 16Z. 5^. Woodman is down for 
15/. 8«., and here he is down for 16?. 5*. P — When 
Mr. Edwards asked me the amount I oonld not tell him. 
I told him it was 15/. or 16/. or something of that sort, 
but the real amount is 16/. 5«, I do not know whether 
he had anything extra, he only had 16/. 5s. from me. 

2824. Those are the amounts are they that make up 
the 35/. 15«. Gd, ?— There might be a little left. I might 
have made a mistake in the hurry of the moment. 

2825. I should be very glad if you could give me 
Mr. Bishop's address to whom you gave 12/. ? — I can 
ascertain it. 



Do you know whereabouts he lives because one 

can then find him on the roister P — I do not know where 
he lives, Kent Terrace they tell me. 



2827. I see these make a total of 1,1862L lOs. 6J., and 
that was about the sum that you received -yras it from 
Mr. Edwards P — No, I did not receive quite so much as 
that, but that bill of Woodman's makes it come to that 
amount. 

2828. Do you remember in about how many payments 
yon received the money from Mr. Edwards P — Two or 
three, not many. 

2829. All in gold p — All in gold, we never have notes 
in those times. 

2830. Does the money which you received the week 
before horn. Mr. Edwards make up the whole of the 
money that you received during this election p— Yes. 

2831. And you have told me, have you, all the pay- 
ments that you made P — Yes, all I know about it. 

(Adjourned for a short time.) 



J. T. OutwtH. 
7 Oct. 1880. 



Edwabd Thomas Boss sworn and examined* 



E, T, Rosj 



1832. (Mr. Turner.) What are you?— A tailor and 
draper. 

2833. In Deal ?— At Wahner. 

2834. An account was handed in on the petition which 
was tried before the judges, which shows an amount of 
306/. expended by you on the election P — Yes. 

2835. That is correct P — Yes, that is correct. 

2836. Did you spend all the money yourself p— Yes, 
and people acting with me. I have their names here 
if you wish to know them, and the different items in that 
book. 

2837. We will go into the items directly, but did you 
give those people the mcmey to spend wmch you did not 
spend yourself ? — ^Yes. 

2838. Who did you receive the money from P— -Mr. 
Edwfurds. 

2839. When? — At different times during the week. 
50/. a day, generally. 

2840. For a week up to the election P — From the 
beginning up to the day of the election. 

2841. Besides that 306/. which you say von received 
from Mr. Edwards, did you receive any other sum from 
him ? — ^Yes ; altogether 640/. 

2842. Can you give me the dates of the receipt by you 
of the different sums from Mr. Edwards P — The first, 
306/. 68. Sd,jl received up to the day of election. 

3843. But you received that by instalments P — ^Yes. 

3844. Can you give me the dates on which you received 
it ? — No, I cannot give you the dates, but it was during the 
week this 306/., in fact there was a little over, which was 
balanced by an after payment Mr. Edwards used 
generally to bring 50/. at a time. 

2845. Day by day P — Day by day. 

2846. Did you receive the 306/, in sums of 50/. day by 
day P — Six days before the election. 

2847. 50/. a day P— About 50/. a day. 

2848. When did you receive the balance of the 
640/. P— About a fortnight after the election, from 
Mr. Edwards. 

2849. As you received the 50/. day by day, did you 
spend it day by day ? — I spent it day by day, as you will 
see marked on that list. 

2850. How did you receive the money P — In gold. 

2851. AllofitP— AUof it. 

2852. Even that after the election P — Yes, all in 
gold. 

2853. (3f/-. HdL) Can you give the different items 
and the amounts you received ? — After the election p 

2854. No, from the begining to the end? — ^I cannot 
give the items for every day, but I had some every 
day. 

2855. (Mr. Twraer. ) Did you have the whole 50/. a day 
in gold p — Yes. 

2856. Who brought it to you ?— Mr. Edwards. 

2857. He brought it himself ?— Yes. 

2858. To Walmer where you live ? — Yes. 

2859. Then this account which was used at the trial, 
correctly represents the payments which you made to 
make that 306/. (Ss. Sd. ?— Yes. 

2860. Have you receipts for the payments which you 
made ? — No, I have not, except one or two for committee 
rooms, or out-voters travelling expenses. I have no 
receipts for the little items you see in that account. 

2861. Some of them are large items. For instance, I 
see there is altogether a sum of 65/. 19*. for poles P — 
Yes. 



2862. Have you no receipts for those P — ^No. I have 
the men's names who I paid the money to. 

2863. Will you give us their names P — Mercer, 
Norris 

2864. (Mr. IIoll.) Can you give ns how much to each 
at the same time P — It was put down day by day as the 
poles were erected. I see 17/. 28. in one lump which 
Mercer received, then Norzis 10/. 49. 

2865. (Mr. TvAmer.) Who is Mercer P—He is one of 
the boatmen. 

2866. You got no acknowledgment from any of these 
men? — ^No. Pearson who assisted me, said so much 
money is required for poles to-day. I handed it to him. 
He gave it to the men, and they Glared it among them- 
selves. 

2867. I see there are two items for ribbon and twill, 
24/. 11«., and 27/. 9«. 4d. You bought them at a shop 
in your place, I suppose p — Yes, I supplied those mysell 
They were bought here. 

2868. Can you give us any notion of the quantity of 
blue ribbon and twill which you supplied P — ^A very 
great deal altogether, for making a display in Walmer. 

2869. For Walmer alone these were used P— Yes. 

2870. 59/. P-^1/. 

2871. But there is another item of 3/., and another 
4/. 11^. 4c2., besides those two large items P — Yes, I think 
that is correct. 

2872. That is a very large item p — There was a great 
deal of ribbon made up into rosettes and flags, which 
were flying all over the place. The boats were dressed 
with flags and colours. I think we had about 40 flag- 
poles, and they were all dressed with flags. 

2873. I suppose at election times a little is put on the 
price ? — No, they are supplied at my ordinary rate of 
profit ; no extra put on whatever. 

2874. There is an item of 21/. 85. 6df. for making these 
things P — Yes ; different people were employed to make 
the ribbon up into bows. 

2875. By youP — No, by some of the boatmen, their 
wives and daughters ; and I have the initials here of the 
men who I paid the money to. 

2876. Then we come to an item, the boat regatta 25/. 
Now do explain that ? — A regatta was proposed a day or 
two previous to the election, and 25/. was to be devoted 
towards it. 

2877. Who proposed the regatta P— It was suggested 
by some people at Walmer. I mentioned it to Mr. Ed- 
wards, and he consented to it ; but being a very rough 
day they had a blue boat, and people dressed up in blue 
perambulated the town and place instead of having the 
regatta. It was put down as regatta, but there really 
was no regatta. 

2878. What was the object of it P— Merely for display, 
that is all. 

2879. Then, crew of the boat ** Petrel" 29/. 2«. P— 
That was another thing we brought before Mr. Edwards. 
They were four Liberal voters away at sea, and he said 
he thought they had better be telegraphed for to come 
home. A telegraph message went to Salcombe, they 
were ordered to start and get as far this way as possible, 
and take the rail for the rest of the distance and get 
home. They got as far as Portsmouth, they came from 
Portsmouth here, and returned to Portsmouth to their 
boat The expenses of that came to 29/. as you see here. 
Mr. Edwards sanctioned that I should telegraph for 
them. They were to come as far home as they could, 
but they found they could not get here in time, and the^ 
had to leave their boat at Portinaouth* 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



E. T. Rose. 



7 Oct 1880. 



(Mr. EolL) They came by boat as far as Ports- 
month P— Yes. 

2881. Then they came by raQ and went back P — ^Yes. 

2882. (Mr. Twmer.) Have yon had any partionlars of 
how that 291, is made np? — ^It was paid to Heniy 
Axon. 

2883. Who is he ?— One of the crew. 

2884. Did he give yon any particnlars of theaooonnt 
of 29L ?— No, it was arranged by Pearson, the man who 
was assisting, I gave the money to him, and he gave it 
to Axon. 

2885. He told yon it was 29L P— He told Mr. Edwards 
what the expense was likely to be, and he said, "Well 
** then you had better get the mennp." Sowetele- 
graphed'for them. 

2886. (Mr. HoU,) How far is it from Salcombe to 
Portsmouth ?— I do not know. There was an easterly 
head wind blowing hard at the time, and they could not 
get far. 

2887. How far is it from Salcombe to Portsmouth P— I 
do not know. It is a matter of 80 or 100 miles. I do 
not know the distance. 

2888. Then they came np from Portsmouth by rail P — 
Yes. 

2889. (3fr. Turner,) Then there is an item for assis- 
tant messengers and board boys amounting to 71L 3«. 6d 
altogether. That seems a large sum P— Yes, it is a very 
large sum. There were a great number of boys em- 
ployed. 

2890. Whose sons were they p— Boatmen. 

2891. Sons of voters P— Voters and non-voters, indis- 
criminately, a large number of boys were employed. 

2892. What did they get a dayP— I think about 2^. 6{2. 
or 3«. according to their age. 

2893. Do you mean to say they were all actually 
employed P— They were employed every day. 

2894. How many days P— About 8 or 9. 

2895. How long were the messengers employed for P 
— Some were emjuoyed eight days. 

2896. Four of them P— Four were employed eight days 
each, and others occasionally. 

2897. What would they be wanted eight days for P— 
Eveiy day while the election was going on I had four 
regular messengers at the committee room at Walmer. 

2898. You had four messengers each day at the com- 
mittee room P— Yes, in attendance every day. 

2899. What did they get ?— 5«. a day. 

2900. That is IL a day, that would be 8L for the 
eight days P— I have got it more in detaQ here in my 
list. 

2901. Have you received the whole of this 306Z. P— 
The whole of it. 

2902. From whom P— Mr. Edwards. 

2903. That is the 50Z. per day that you spoke of p— 
Yes, about 50Z. per day. 

2904. (Mr, HoU,) How much did you get before the 
election P — 3iB0L, it was rather more than that. A fort- 
night after the election the canvassers were paid. 
Mr . Edwards wanted to know how much I had in hand, 
I told liim, and he gave me sufficient to pay the can- 
vassers. 

9905. How much did you have before or after the 
election day P — I think I had about 12Z. in hand on the 
election night. 

2906. Out of what P — Out of the amounts I received 
from Mr. Edwards. 

2907. How much was that P— The account came to 
306L 6*. 8(L, but other things were to foUow. The can- 
vassers were to be paid. 

2908. How much money had you received from 
Mr. Edwards up to the time of the election P— About 
320Z. 

2909. You had received that amount up to that timep 
—Yes. 

2910. You received that in gold P— Yes, m gold. 

2911. Did Mr. Edwards appoint you to act P— Yes, 
he asked me to do what I could in the correspondence 
and keeping the accounts at Walmer for him. 

2912. You did more than that, you had to manage the 
expenditure of this money, did you not? — For Walmer. 

2913. Did he ask you to act as agent P— Yes, he and 
Mr. Emmerson of Sandwich together. 

2914. He asked you whether you woidd act for 
Walmer P— He asked me whether I would act for 
Walmer. 



2915. What sort of authority did he give you to act P 
— He said I was to do what was necessary ; he saw me 
every day, and I reported to him. 

2916. Did he leave it to your discretion, or did he tell 
you what to do with regard to getting poles, flags, and 
all these things P— Not altogether ; he was aware of what 
was being done ; eveiy day he went through my accounts 
and saw what was doing. 

2917. He knew what you were ordering in the way of 
flags, poles, and so on P — Yes, he knew. 

2918. (Mr, Twner,) I see in your items here Major 
Jones, expenses SI 10«. What does that mean p — He is 
an out- voter. He came down from London to vote. 

2919. (Mr, Holl) You say you received 320Z. about 
the time of the election p — Yes. 

2920. You received the other 340Z. subsequently p To 

balance ; to make up the 640Z. 

2921. You received 320L afterwards ?— I had a small 
balance in hand after the day of the election. 

2922. And then you received 320Z. more ? — I received 
a balance to make up 340Z. 

2923. That is 320Z. more ?— Yes. 

2924. (Mr. Turner,) What did you do with that ?— Mr. 
Minter had 129L He had the Upper Walmer part of 
the parish to attend to. 

2925. This was after the election P— About a fortnight 
after. 

2926. Mr. Minter had 129L?— Yes. 

2927. What for P— He will tell you. I do not know 
exactly how he spent it, 

2928. That leaves 211Z. for youp— I have others as 
well. 

2929. We want to know what you did with that S201 P 
—Henry Pearson, 271, 15«. ; William BuUen, 19/. 10«. ; 
Stephen HaUe, 6Z. ; William Norris, 6L ; David Henry 
Axon, 23L 10s. ; William Trigg, 21Z. 10». ; Mr. Trollope, 
132. ; Mr. Miller, 91, ; Mr. Huson, 18/. ; and Hookliam, on 
account of painting flags, 10/. lis, ; Castle, for bill post- 
ing, 3/. 5«. ; Bullen and Norris, expenses to Ramsgate 
and Dover, 30«. 

2930. Is that all P— Except this— there is making 15 
flags, 3/. 7s, 6d. ; the white drill and calico for heading 
them, 1/. 3». ; and petty expenses, 4Z. 11«. lOd. — that 
completes it. 

2931. Had you any acknowledgments from these people 
to whom you paid those moneys ? — No, I took no receipt 
for them. 

2932. Some of them had large sums P — Yes. 

2933. What did they want it for p— I believe the main 
part of it was to be spent among the voters. 

2934. After the election p— After the election. 

2235. Had they been promised money before the elec- 
tion P — ^I believe thev had been promised beforehand, 
and this was to pay the promises. 

2936. Who had promised it to them, you p — No, these 
different men. 

2937. Did Mr. Edwards know that that was the object 
for which that money was to be applied ? — Yes, I told 
him there woidd be monc}'^ required for that purpose. 

2938. To pay the voters promised before the election p 
— ^Yes, he told me that could not be advanced until after 
the election was over ; that we must risk that. 

2939. Except those items which you have spoken of 
for flags and so on, aU that money was to pay vot^ who 
had been promised before the election P — Yes, each man 
may have nad some little expenses. I do not know how 
they spent their money. 

2940. That is what you gave them p — Yes, and I have 
no doubt that is what it was for. 

2941. (Mr, HoU,) Did you have any account; the 
items altogether for poles amount to 65/. 19«. ; poles, 
17/. 5«. ; who did you pay that to P— That was paid to 
Mercer. 

2942. Is he a boatman P — He is a boatman. 

2943. Did you have any account or any particulars 
from him of the poles he had supplied for that 17/. 5s, ? 
— Pearson, who assisted me, said the demand they made 
for putting up a certain number of polos was correct. 

2944. Did you have any particulars or account in 
writing P — ^No, nothing. 

2945. All you had was a statement from Pearson that 
that was conrect p — ^Yes. 

2946. Is Pearson a boatman P— Yes. 

2947. Whom you employed ?— He assisted me. 



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2948. And yoa relied npon his statement that that was 
correct P— Yes. 

294d. Do yon know yonrself how the money was 
spent P — Yes. 

2950. Where were the poles erected P— All along the 
beach at Walmer. 

2951. How many poles do yon think were erected 
there by Mercer, be^nse this is only one item P — ^They 
were paid abont 25^. to SOs, a pole ; that is the price en 
patting them up. 

2952. What is the height of these poles P— 40 or 50 
feet some of them. 

2953. Fifty feet ?— Fifty feet some of them ; they were 
as high as they ooidd get them ; I shonld think all of 
them were 50 feet, and some of them not more than 50 
feet high. 

2954. There are a number of other items P — ^Who was 
the lOZ. 48. paid to P — Norris. 

2955. Who was the 122. paid to ?— Cushney. 

2956. Who was the 202. paid to P— Minter. 

2957. There is another 5/. besides, which comes to 
652. 19s. altogether. How many poles, do you say, were 
erected idtogether for that 602. P — I do not know the 
number exactly, but I should think all oyer the parish 
there were at least 40. 

2958. You beUeve there were 40 at 30«. apiece P — 
Some 258, 

2959. You do not know how many men were employed 
in erecting them, I suppose P — No, I do not indeed. 

2960. You took Pearson's statement P — ^I took Pear- 
son's statement. 

2961. (Mr, Twmer.) Have you acted at previous elec- 
tions P — No. 

9962. What is the object of erecting such quantities of 
poles and colours ; is it to distribute money ? — No, it is 
just a display of colour ; it has been a customary thing 
in this borough. 

2963. Is the real object the display of colour, or is it 
that it distributes money about the place among the 
friends of the cause p — I think it is both ways ; to display 
colours and for the friends of the cause as well, 

2964. And I may take it that it is the same with re- 
gard to the ribbon, 592. ; it is partly for display and 
partly because you want it to distribute money among 
the fnends of the cause p — Yes. 

2965. I see there are two bills, one for 242. II9., and 
one for 272. ; who were those things supplied by P — ^I 
supplied them personally. 

2966. Have you the amount which was supplied P — I 
went to Bradbury's, in London, for the goods at the 
time. 

2967. It is for twill supplied at the time P— Blue twill 
and ribbon together. 

2968. Those two items amount to 522. ; it seems an 
immense sum for ribbon. What quantity was tiiere P — 
I should think at least 500 yards of blue twill. 

2969. How much is that a yard P—l». 

2970. That is 252. P— I cannot tell you how many rolls 
of ribbon and glazed lining there were ; that was a com- 
mon kind. I cannot tell you exactly how many pieces 
of that we had. 

2971. Is this common twill as much as la, a yard on 
any other occasion p — Yes. 

2972. 500 yards P— About 500 yards. 

2973. 500 yards you had down ; was that all used P — 
Every bit 

2974. (Mr, Turner.) What became of it after the elec- 
tion P — ^We kept it on the boats and it blew away; it 
disappeared after the election. I do not know what be- 
came of it. 

2975. (Mr. Holl.) Now, with regard to the regatta and 
this sum of 252., who did you give that to ; who was the 
man to receive the money ? — Mercer. 

2976. I suppose all these people, Cushney, Minter, 
Norris and Mercer are voters P — ^AU voters. 

2977. Was any of that money distributed to voters in 
consideration for their votes, or was it all spent upon the 
poles P — Several of » the mfen were engaged in these blue 
boats. 

2978. With regard to the poles, were the men em- 
ployed by Mercer, Norris, Minter, or Cushney, and were 
they voters P — I believe they were voters and non- voters 
for that sort of work ; they were not all voters, but they 
were mixed up ; voters and non-voters. 

2979. The majority of them were ^voters P — ^I think it 
most likely^ 

Q8334 



2980. With regard to this boat, as to which you say 
you paid 252., who did you pay that to P— Mercer. 

2981. He named a boat with how many men P— I do 
not know how many men, but he will tell you that 
himself. 

2982. You saw this boat dressed up with blue P— Idid 
see the boat. 

2983. How many men were there in her ; six, or eight, 
or ten P — I do not know who were mixed up at all with 
them ; perhaps there were 12 or 15. I cannot tell you 
the particulars about that. 

2984. (Mr. Turner,) What is Mercer's christian name P 
— Joseph. 

2985. Is his address at Walmer P~Yes. 

2986. Is he a boatman or a pilot P— A boatman. 

2987. Is he an owner of boatsP—I think he is an 
owner of one or two small boats. 

2988. How came you to employ him P—Pearson em- 
ployed him ; I did not employ him particularly. 

2989. Pearson is a boatman too P—Yes. 

2990. (Mr. HoU.) You cannot tell me how many men 
were in this boat P— No. perhaps there were eight or ten 
in that boat, and, perhaps, some of the other people 
acted that had some of the money. 

2991. What could you want to have 252. paid among 
10 men for having a boat rowed up and down for p— It 
was sanctioned. 

2992. They were all voters P— Yes, the majority of 
them at any rate. 

2993. As to the 292. 2«. ; they came from Salcombe to 
Portsmouth?— They had to leave their boat and loose 
time ; that was considered. 

2994. What were they doing P— -Piloting to go down to 
the westward. 

2995. This was a payment to them for loss of time P~ 
Loss of time, expenses, and going back to Portsmouth, 
coming from Portsmouth and going back. 

2996. Not a quarter of this could have been their 
expenses of coming up from Portsmouth and going 
back P— Part of it was really for loss of time. 

2997. You say they came and voted, and had this sum 
of 292. P— Their expenses would be paid. 

2998. What did they satisfy you that they had really 
incurred P— It was estimated by the people at Walmer 
what would satisfy them, and 1 think the message went 
on to state that if they came their expenses and loss of 
time would be paid. 

2999. You were authorised to ^j their expenses and 
loss of time ; did you mention any sum P— No, no sum. 

3000. Did you take any trouble to ascertam what their 
expenses were P— Yes. 

3001. There were four men, were there not P — Yes. 

3002. What would be their railway fares from Ports- 
mouth and back, 12. each p— I do not know exactly what 
the fare is. 

3003. That would be about it ; that would be 42. out 
of the 292. P— Yes. 

3004. What is the other 252. for P— That was divided 
between them in a way as if they had be5n on the 
ground, and had earned their money. 

3005. That is all the account you can give ; you say 
this 252. was paid really for loss of time ; was it not 
really paid to them for coming to vote P— No, it was not. 

3006. (Mr, Jewne,) They only lost a day, I suppose P 
—Yes; when they left Salcombe, I think they were 
three or four days working up to Portsmouth with a 
head wind, and I think they were about a week altogether 
away from their boat. 

3007. (Mr. HoU,) Do you mean from Portsmouth here P 
— No, when they startea from Salcombe. 

3008. They worked up in their boat from Salcombe to 
Portsmouth P— Yes, but I think they were three or four 
days doing that, I think the wind was easterly at the 
time ; there was a head wind, and they could not make 
any progress. 

3009. 72. 5«. it is each ?— I think it is somewhere about 
that. 

3010. Ta^ng those figures, 42. for coming from Ports- 
mouth here, and 62. 5«. each man for the time he stayed 

here, that is more thto 12. a head you gave them P Yes 

that is what they had. ' 

3011. How many canvassers did you have, and how 

many messengers ; first of all, how many canvassers P 

Eleven. 

3012. ForWahner?— Yes. 

3013. You had volunteer canvassers, had you not ? — 
Yes, they volunteered their services. 



E, T, Rou, 
7 Oct. 1880. 



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aA.NDWJCH EliECTlON COMMISSION; 



3014 When I called them Toltuiteer, I mean men who 

- A«* lOQA were not paid P— No, not one. 
^ 8015. You had no volmiteer caavaseew ? — No. 

3016. Where there no tradespeople or leading gentry 
to act as volunteer canvassers P— No, no one took the 
slightest interest in it at Walmer. 

3017. You had 11 paid canvassers P — Yes, 11 were 
pfdd ; they at Hieee several amounts of money. 

3018. Did the 11 do anything ; did the whole 11 do 
anything ?— The whole 11 took districts, and each man 
took his own district. 

3019. Risaconstituencyof 300odd?— Yes. 

3020. How could you require 11 canvassers to canvas 
a place a mile long, with 300 electors ? — Those men 
could only undertake to do certain portions o| the parish. 

3021. They were all voters, I presume P — ^Yes. 
.3022. All the canvassers were voters P — ^Yes. 

3023. Was not this really a way of paying them lor 
their votes ; was it not an employment to secure their 
votes P — No, not a bit. 

3024 How could you want 11 canvassers to canvass a 
place one mile long, and principally consisting of one 
street P — It is a much larger place than that ; it is nearly 
two miles from one end of the parish to the other. The 
canvassers can tell you better what they did with the 
money, because I do not know what they did with it. 

3025. They put it into their pockets, of course, but 
what I want to know is how could you have paid 11 
canvassers to canvass a place of the size of Wahner, with 
only 300 electors ; it is a canvasser to every 25 electors. 
If you divide a mile and a half by 11, there would be a 
very small place for each of them to walk over and 
canvass P — It is not only one straight street you see. 

3026. The main part of it lies pretty well together ; 
there is Upper Walmer, no doubt, but it is only a 
small district ? — ^Those men volunteered to take certain 
districts. I did not appoint them to any district. 

3027. They voltmteered their services for the sake of 
being paid? — I do not know whether they had any 
portion of this money for expenses. 

3028. What did you pay to each P— Those are the 
amounts of money I gave to each of them. 

3029. Minter, 129Z. ?— Yes. 

3030. In your account which you delivered of 306Z. 
there is a sum of 71 Z. for assistonts, messengers, can- 
vassers, and boys ? — Yes, that is quito right 

3031. How much did you pay the canvassers for 
canvassing; was any price agreed?— No, there was no 
price agreed at all. 

3032. Is there any charge for canvassers in this 
account of 306Z. P— No. 

3033. That does not include the canvassers ? — ^No. 
8034 What were the assistants ?— They assisted in 

painting the flags, and various tilings. 

3035. How manv of those people had you ? — I cannot 
tell you the numoer. The amount of money for assis- 
tants I paid to Henry Pearson. 

3036. Were the people who acted as assistants voters P 
—Not all of them. I think they were mostly the sons 
of voters. 

8037. That was an employment of sons of voters ? 

Yes. 

3038. How many messengers had you ? — Four regular 
• messengers for eight days, and then we had messengers 

for odd days. 

3039. Bid you have them for eight days p— Yes. 

3040. How much did you pay them a day ?— 5*. 

3041. Were they voters ?— No, none of them. 

3042. Sons of voters P— Yes. 

3043. And, I suppose, with regard to the board boys 
they were sons of voters ?— Yes, they were all voters' 
boys. 

3044. They got in eight days 71^. Ss. 6(2. ?— Yes, 
altogether. 

3045. How many were employed altogether P— I have 
not the slightest idea. 

3046. What were the watchmen, 51 10^. 6(?. p— 
Looking after the flag poles at night to see that no one 
cut the rigging down. 

3047. You spent 1501, in erecting flags and poles, and 
you spent 61 more to watch them ?— -Yes. 

3048. You say that you paid after the election a 
number of expenses to Peaison, Miziter, and Axon P— 
Yes. 



3049. This3062.,Innderstand, yoaliaveaotaallv paid? 
—Yes, I paid 640Z. altogether. 

3050. Take the 306^. flrst^ you paid the whole of that? 
— ^Yes. 

305L {Mr. Jemwi) Every one of the items in thip 
account which has been mmded in has been paid, and 
paid by you ?— Yes. 

3052. (Mr. HoU.) Then after the election yon say yon 
paid other items P— Yes, Minter, 129Z., Henry Pearson, 
27^. 158, 

3063. Who is Minter ?— The landlord of "The Drum," 
in Walmer. 

3054 What was this paid to him for ?— He expended 
that amount in Walmer. I do not know in what way. 
It was in Upper Walmer. 

3055. He told you that?— Yes, that what he asked 
for after the election. 

3056. Did he say that he had spent that amount of 
money in Upper Walmer?— Yes. 

3057. He asked for 129Z., and you paid it?— Yes. 

3058. Did you make any enquiry to ascertain how he 
had spent it ?— I was satisfied that it was spent mainly 
amongst voters. 

3059. That is in paying people for their votes; 
promises made for their votes P— Yes, I believe so. 

3060. He told you that P— Yes, he told me that money 
woidd be required. 

3061. He told you beforehand that money would be 
required ?— Yes. 

3062. For paying voters?— He said that he should 
have to make promises to voters. 

3063. And afterwards he told you that he had paid 
money to the amount of 129Z.?— He said he wanted 
1291. to pay his promises and his expenses. 

3064 And you gave him that sum P — Yes. 

3065. Did he give you any list of the people he had 
promised to pay, or had paid P— No. I believe he has 
got a list himself. 

8066. What was hep— A publican. 

3067. Then Henry Pearson, 27^. 15*., ; was that given 
to him for the same .purpose P— Yes, for the same 
purpose. 

3068. He told you beforehand he wanted money to 
pay his voters, and after the election he told you he 
wanted 27^. 15«. to pay them, and you gave it to hipi ? 
—Yes. 

3069. Did he give you a list?— No. 

3070. Has he got a list P— I think he has. I think they 
all have lists. 

3071. Then "W. Bullen, 19^. lOs.;" was that in the 
same way P — Yes. 

3072. *'Hoile, 62.," is that the same?— Yes. 

3073. "W. Norris, 62,"?— Yes. 

3074 "D. Ax<m, 232. 10». ; W. Triigg, 212. 10«.; 
" S. Pearson, 352. 10«. ; Trollope, 132. ; Miller, 92. ; 
** Huson, 182. P— Yes, they are all the same. 

3075. And you think they have all liste p— Yes, they 
all have listo. 

3076. Then the next is for painting flags. ** Hook- 
** ham, 102. 11».," what is that?— AU the flags were 
lettered with diflferent mottoes. It is printing really 
different mottoes on flags. 

3077. Hookhamisavoter?— Yes. 

307a Then there is " Castle, bill posting, 32. 6^.," 
what is that?— That is for distributing bills. 

3079. Then ** Bullen and Norris, expenses to Dover 
" and Ramsgate, 12. lOs.," what is that ?— They went 
to look aft^ some men who were Ashing, and they did 
not know whether they were at Ramsgate or Dover. 

3080. Then "Making 15 flags, 32. Is. 6i.," who did 
you pay that to ? — That was done in my shop. 

3081. Then ** White drill and calico for flag headings, 
** 12. 3«.," that, I suppose, you supplied ?— Yes. 

3082. Then at Deal there is " Trollope, 252. P— Yes. 

3083. Was that money that you had been told would 
be required for paying the voters ? — Yes. 

3084 In the same way as the other sums you first 
mentioned ?— Yes. 

3085. After the election Trollope told you that he 
wanted 252. to pay his voters ?— Yes. 

3086. And the same with regard to Bailey, Pearson, 
and D. Axon P— Yes, that was for Deal 

3087. Have yon paid all this 6802. ?— Yes. 

3088. You are 402. out of pocket P—Ko; the40Z. for 



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MINUTES OP EVIDENCE, 



59 



Ileal I kept separftie. 640Z I bad for Wahner, and the 
other 40Z. was for Deal 

3089. Paid to men belonging to Deal P—Yea. 

3090. Yon had that 40Z. for Deal P— Yes. 

3091. Where did yon get the money P — From 
Mr. Edwards. 

3092. Did yon get the 40L for Deal from Mr. Edwards 
also P— Yes. 

3093. In point of fact altogether, poles and flags, came 
to 70L or 80Z. P— Yes. 

3094. Have yon received any other moneys whatever 
in connexion witii the election beyond this 680Z. ? — No, 
nothing whatever. 

3095. Have yon paid anything at all, excepting what 
is down in yonr original account of 3062. or in this paper P 
— ^No, not a farthing, 

3096. Have von any written claims for these amounts 
that are down here ?— They are all paid. 

3097. I know ; bnt did yon have any account sent in to 
yon P— No, only verbal demands. 

3098. Have yon got receipts for any of the sums P — 
No, none. 

8099. You did not take any P— No. 

3100. You did not ask for any P— No, I did not ask 
for any. 

3101. You merely kept on paper an account yourself 
of what was claimed from you, and all that was claimed 
was paid P— Yes, all that was claimed I paid. I was 
satisfied they were right. 

3102. You paid it without any receipt being taken P — 
Yes, I paid it without any receipt. 

3103. Was all the 306Z. that you paid paid for these 
things as here represented P — Yes. 

3104. And to the people whose names are here? — 
Yes, I handed the money to the people whose names 
you have there. 



3105. (Mr, Jrnne,) You knew, I suppose, before the 
election that promisee of money were being made P-^ 
Yes. 

3106. When did you first know that such promises 
were being made, was it before the election P — ^About 
three or four days before the election the canvassers told 
me that money would be required. 

3107. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Edwards 
about that P— Yes, I told him. 

3108. You told Mr. Edwards that money would be 
required P— Yes. 

3109. And Mr. Edwaxds told you that it would be 
forthcoming p~He said that nothing of that kind would 
be paid before the election, and whatever was done in 
the way of promises would be paid afterwards, and I had 
it about a fortnight after the election was over. 

3110. About a fortnight after the election you went to 
Mr. Edwards and got money P— No, Mr. Edwards brought 
it to me. 

3111. How did Mr. Edwards know what to bring P—I 
gave him a list of the claims two or tiiree days after the 
election. 

3112. You sent a list to Mr. Edwards, and he came to 
you and brought the money P — Yes, a fortnight irfter the 
election he came, and brought the money to me according 
to those lists. 

8113. You did not get any money from Mr. Edwards 
before the election upon the Monday P — No. 

3114. Did you know that money was being given out 
by Mr. Edwards upon that day ? — ^No, I did not know 
anything of the kind. 

3115. I suppose you saw Sir Julian Gk)ldsmid about 
from time to time P — I saw him twice for a few minutes 
during the election. 

3116. Did you have any conversation with himP 
— No. 

3117. Not about money at all P— No, nothing. 



E. T. Rot€. 
7 Oct 1880. 



Jahbs Babbeb Edwabds sworn and examined. 



J.B.Edwards 



3118. (Mr. Holt) You acted as agent for Sir Julian 
Goldsmid at Deal and Walmerp— Yes. 

3119. When did you first have any communication 
with himP — ^When Mr. Emmerson brougnt him down from 
Ijondon ; I think I never saw or heard of him before. 

3120. Was that the evening of Monday the 10th P— It 
was the day he came to DeaL 

3121. Was it Monday the 10th he came P—I cannot 
say ; it was the day he came to Deal. 

3122. You do not know which day it was P— No. 

3123. Have you any memorandum or diary that you 
can refer to to see the day he came P — No. 

3124. Whatever day it was that he came to Deal first, 
that was the day you saw himP — ^Yee, I met him at 
Sandwich, in the tram with Mr. Emmerson, who was there 
with him. 

3125. Had you gone over to Sandwich to meet him P 

^I had been over to Sandwich so often to members, or 

candidates ratiier, tiiat I cannot say ; I think he was 
expected, and I went over for the purpose. 

3126. Did yon have any conversation with him there p 
— Only coming along in the train. 

3127. Did you get into the train at Sandwich and come 
on to Deal P— Yes. 

3128. Had von had any communication with him 
previously P — No, none whatever. 

3129. What was the substance of your conversation 
with him on your way here P — It was m reference to the 
coming election, and whether there was any chance of 
success. 

3130. Tell us what passed between you; give me 
shortly the substance of it P — It is a very difficult matter 
now to recollect, because it is so many months ago ; there 
was nothing of any importance. 

3131. Did he ask you your opinion as to the chances 
of his success, and so fortn P — It is veiy likely he might 
have done, and I had a very good opimon of it. 

3132. Do you remember whether you said anything 
to liiTn about l^t P — I do not know whether I did at 
that time, but I have since because I thought there was 
a very gcK)d chance of success. 

3133. Did anything pass between you as regards 
money matters, or the amount that would be required 
to be spent in the borough P — No, not at that time. 

3134. You had no communication with him by letter 
previously to this P — No, none ; Mr. Emmerson I think 



3135. When he came to Deal did you have any further 
conversation with him on the subject P — Yes, upon 
several occasions. 

3136. You were appointed as his agent ?— He con- 
sidered me as his agent, I never had any appointment. 

3137. After that 4id you have any conversation with 
him with regard to the prospects of success, and the 
probable expense that would be required in the election P 
— Not as regards amount. 

3138. Did anything pass between you as regards the 
amount that would be required to be spent to fight the 
borough P — No, I do not think I ever spoke to him upon 
the subject I told him that money would be wanted, 
and that it was always usual to have the money down, 
but with him I said it was not of much consequence 
because we ooidd trust him. I had always understood 
that there was a good lump sum deposited to answer 
expenses. 

3139. Did you tell him that P— Yes, certainly, and he 
said it was contrary to all he had ever done before, he 
said he had never pai^ anything beforehand. 

3140. You told him it was usual to deposit a large 
sum to meet expenses p — Yes, in this place. 

3141. And he said that it was contrary to what he had 
been expected to do, and that he had never done any- 
thing of the kind before P — Yes, he said he had never 
paid anything until after the election. 

3142. Did he say whether he would or would not do 
it P — No, he did not say that. First of all I had a cheque 
for 2002. I tiiink. 

3143. Did anything more pass between you and him 
in regard to money matters at that time P — ^No, nothing. 

3144. Was this upon the day of his arrival here P— Oh 
dear no ! I cannot say the day. 

3145. When did you first have any conversation with 
him about mcmey matters P — I really cannot fix the day, 
it would be between the time he came and the Sunday, 
but I cannot fix the day. 

3146. You would have some conversation with him 
about the expenses of the election, and so forth, soon 
after his arrival ? — ^Yes,' but I cannot say when. 

3147. It would be soon after his arrival P — ^Very likely. 
I must have had some conversation when asking for the 
2002. 

3148. When did you get the cheque for 200Z. P—I see 
from my pass book that I paid a cheque for 2002. into 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COBIMISSIOn : 



J,B. EduHirdi. the bank upon May llth, bni I do not know what day 

' of the week that was. 

7 Oct 1880. 3149. That is Tuesday the llth, and the election was 
— npon Tuesday the 18th P— I received 2001. on account on 
that day. 

3150. We heard that Sir Julian Ctoldamid came upon 
Monday the 10th in the afternoon P— Tes, that would be 
the day I met him. 

3151. And you got a cheque for 2001. upon the 
following day P — ^Yes. 

3152. Was that a cheque upon his London bankers P — 
Yes, I think it was ; I took gold out the same day from 
the bank here. Then I had another cheque from him 
for 320Z., which I see was paid into the bank upon the 
15th. I have two cheques here for 320Z., but one was 
my own cheque. 

3153. You do not know the date of the cheque for 
320Z. P— No ; I had 300i. out the same day. 

3154. You probably received that cheque upon the 
14th or 15th?— I think so. I see upon the 12th I had 
320Z., and upon the 15th 3202., but one was my own 
cheque, and had nothing to do with Sir Julian Ck>lcUnnid. 
I am ahnost certain that Sir Julian's cheque was paid in 
upon the 15th. 

3155. One of the cheques was your own private cheque, 
one of the cheques for 3202. P— Yes. 

3156. Whether Sir Julian's cheque was the one you 
paid in upon the 12th, or the one you paid in upon the 
15th, you are not certain P— I think I may say I am 
certain that Sir Julian's cheque was paid in upon the 
15th, upon the 12th I drew out 320L, but whether that 
was Sir Julian's cheque or my own I do not know. 

3157. That would render it probable, would it not, if 
you drew out 320Z., upon the 12th, that was the date of 
Sir Julian's cheque P— No, I think that was my cheque. 

3158. Did you draw it out for your own purposes P— 
No, for the purposes of the election. 

3159. Did you open an account for the election P— No, 
all the money I had I took myself « 

3160. And paid into your private account P—Yes. I 
have my pass book here, and it appears from it that on 
the llth May I had 200L, then upon the 12th 320Z., and 
upon the 15th 3202. 

3161. That was all the money you used in the election P 
—Yes. 

3162. But one of those cheques for 320^. was your 
own money P—Yes ; I drew out 2002. upon the llth, 
3202. upon the 12th, and 3202. upon the 15th. The 
reason of having the money so sharply was because the 
Monday before the election was a Book Holiday, when 
no money could be got, and of course I did not know 
what money I should want. 

3163. What other sums did you receive ? — I received 
1,3002. at Sandwich. 

3164. From whom was that P— I have been told since 
it was Mr. Foord, but who it was I do not know. 

3165. How came you to go to Sandwich P— I was over 
at Sandwidi at Mr. Emmerson's. 

3166. Had you gone over with any expectation of 
receiving this money P — I think I had understood from 
Mr. Emmerson thatne expected «omebody. I was over 
there I think in the morning for some purpose con- 
nected with the election, and f think he said, ** Perhaps 
somebody would be calling," and this gentleman came I 
believe by the train. 

3167. With money for the election P—Yes, with money 
for the election. 

3168. And you went there in consequence P — ^I was 
over l^ere. 

3169. Did you stay there P—Yes, I think I stayed 
there. 

3170. Upon what day was that P— That was upon the 
Fridav. You may perhaps wonder how I can fix the 
day, but let me say this ; one of the newspapers states 
l^at Mr. Emmerson said it was the day before the elec- 
tion, and I am quite certain it was not ; and yesterday 
I made inquiries to ascertain the exact day, and how I 
ascertained it vtba this ; I drove from Sandwich with the 
money to Deal, and I saw mv driver, and he informed 
me that the day I was over tnere, and he took me from 
Sandwich, was upon the Friday, which was exactly 
according to my impression. If Mr. Emmerson stated 
that it was the day before the election, he is mistaken, 
because I am quite sure it was not the day before the 
election. 

3171. You say you are strengthened in that impression 
by the inquiries you have made, and you have ascertained 



it was upon the Friday that you received the 1,300^. P— 
Yes. 

3172. Where did you see Mr. Foord P — At Mr. 
Emmerson's. 

3173. When Mr. Foord came in, tell us what took 

Slaoe ; what did he say P — He said very little ; he said 
e had brought 1,5002. for the election. 

3174. (Mr. Jefime.) Mr. Emmerson, in his evidence, 
stated also that it was upon the Friday that you had 
the 1,3002. P— I saw it in the paper that Mr. Emmerson 
stated it vtba the dav before me election, and I wish to 
correct it, because I am quite sure it was not the day 
before the election. 

3175. (Mr. HoU.) You say that Mr. Foord said nothing, 
or very httle P — ^I do not recollect his saying but very 
little; I think he said that the friends of Sir Julian 
Qoldamid had sent the money ; I think he said some- 
thing about Sir Julian's friends having supplied the 
money for the election, and that Sir Julian had very 
ffreat objection to paying money before the election was 
decided. 

3176. I must ask you to remember as accurately as 
you can exactly what was said P — No, I cannot remember 
it ; he wanted me to count the money, but that I declined 
to do ; I know that for one thing. Sir Julian had told 
me in the conversation I had with him, which I have 
referred to, his great objection to paying money before 
hand ; that he had never done so, and did not wish to 
do so. 

3177. What did Mr. Foord say to you, as nearly as 
vou can recollect p — I must repeat what I just now said ; 
he said he had brought 1,5002. for Sir Julian's election. 

3178. Do you remember from whom he said he had 
got it; who had sent itP — Friends of Sir Julian's, I 
think he said ; I think he was one of them, but who he 
was I did not know, nor do I know now, except that I 
have been informed it was a Mr. Foord. 

3179. He said that friends of Sir Julian's had sent the 
money for the election, but he did not tell you who they 
were P — No ; no names were mentioned, nor was his own 
name mentioned. 

3180. He did not mention his name at that time P — 
No, not to me, nor did I ask. 

3181. You have since heard that it was a Mr. Foord P — 
Yes, of Rochester or Chatham. 

3182. Who did you he^ it from P— I think it was 
Mr. Lewis. 

3183. Mr. George Lewis P—Yes ; it might have been 
from Mr. Emmerson, but I think it was Mr. Lewis. 

3144. Did anything take place between you and 
Mr. Emmerson and Mr. Foord beyond ihatP — No, I 
left. 

3185. How long did he remain with you P— I shoidd 
think not five minutes ; I left. 

3186. Did he leave before you left P— No, I left to 
have some luncheon and to order a fly, and I returned 
and took the money away. 

3187. When you returned he was gone P—Yes, I think 
he was. 

3188. I only said he was gone because you said he 
remained only five minutes p— I only remained about five 
minutes there ; I left 

3189. Do you remember whether he was gone when 
you came back or not ? — I think he was, but I would not 
be certain. 

3190. Did you ever have any further conversation 
with him whatever in reference to this money P — No, 
none whatever ; the money was made up in the parcel, 
and I took it to the fly, and took it off. 

3191. Was it made up in one parcel P— The money 
was in bags. 

3192. Was the whole of the 1,5002. in one bag or 
parcel P— Several bags. 

3193. How did you and Mr. Emmerson divide it P — 
I do not know whether I did or did not for certain, but 
I think I said to Mr. Emmerson, '* What amount do yon 
want," and he said, ** 2002.," and he took 2002., and of 
course I took the rest. 

3194. He said he wanted 2002. P— He said he would 
take 2002. 

3195. And you took the rest P—Yes. 

3196. Did you know how much the rest consisted of 
when you took it away P — Only that Mr. Foord told me 
the bags contained so-and-so, and wanted me to count 
them, but that I refused to do ; I had no wish to do that, 
and I trusted to his honesty. 

8197. You returned back to Deal P-^Yes. 



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MINUTES OF EVIDBKCE, 



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3198. Did anything furfcher take place between yon 
and Mr. Emmerson, or anybody, in regard to this money ? 
— ^No, nothing. I do not think I mentioned it to any- 
body after that, except it might be to Sir Julian. I 
might have said that I had received some money on his 
acoonnt for the election, or, at least, I suppose on his 
account. 

3199. Did you ?— Yes, I think I must have said that, 
I had no reason for not telling him. 

3200. Do you remember whether you did teU him, or 
not ? — ^Yes, I think so, certainly. 

3201. That you had received the money?— Yes, the 
1,300/. 

3202. When and where do you think you told him P — 
I suppose it would be about the same day, or the next 
day. 

3203. Did you see him upon your return back to Deal ? 
'I did not see him upon that day. I saw him the next 
morning. 

3204. Do you remember whether you did tell him or 
not P— Yes, I think I did, certainly. Ihad no reason for 
keeping it from him. 

3205. Can you remember what you told him P — 
Nothing, except tiiat I had received 1,300Z. at Sandwich. 

3206. Do you remember where you told him P— I 
suppose it would be at our central committee room at 
the ** Star and Garter." 

3207. You say you suppose P — ^Beoause I generally 
saw him there, and very seldom saw him at any other 
place. 

3208. I do not know whether it is actual recollection, 
or whether it is merely that you suppose so^ because 
it is the most likely place to have seen him P — Sir 
Julian Goldsmid came every morning, and I saw him 
every morning there. 

3209. And your impression is that you told him 
there the fact of your having received this 1,300Z. P — 
Yes. 

3210. Do I understand that you are sure of that, or 
is it only an impression P — I may have said, "I 
** received the money at Sandwich," without mentioning 
the amount. 

3211. Can you remember exactly what you did say ; 
there is a difference between having an impression that 
you. would most probably tell him this, and having an 
actual recollection of the fact of having done it. Is what 
is passing in your mind that you think you must have 
done it, or have you an actual recollection of having 
done it P — ^It is difficult to remember now, but I think 
I must have informed him. I do not know why I shotdd 
not. 

3212. You think you must have informed him, because 
there is no reason for not doing so p — Yes ; and especially 
as idways at Deal a large sum has been deposited, 
as I have understood. It is the first time I have ever 
had to do witii money at elections. 

3213. You say that Sir Julian told you he objected to 
that ? — Yes, very much. 

3214. Can you remember anything more distinctly, 
beyond what you have told us in reference to the 
matter p— No. 

3215. {Mr. Jeune.) 1 understand you to say you think 
you did mention to Sir Julian that this money nad come 
down P — Yes. 

3216. Have you any doubt that Sir Julian knew per- 
fectly well tiiat this money had come p — No. 

3217. You said that Mr. Foord said something about 
the friends of Sir Julian sending it. You have no doubt 
that Sir Julian knew perfectly well about it? — I have no 
doubt that he knew his friends woidd supply some money. 
I should think so, at any rate. 

3218. In alluding to iiie fact of the money having been 
received, did Sir Julian express any surprise, or anything 
of that sort ? — ^No, he did not express surprise. 

3219. {Mr. Holl.) My friend has ajsked you whether 
Sir Julian expressed any surprise. Have you any 
distinct recollection whether you did tell him or not P— I 
must have told him. 

3220. "What I mean is this; of course there is a 
distinction between an impression that you must have 
told him, because you think there is no reason why you 
should not, and therefore must have done it, and having 
an actual positive recollection of the fact of having done 
so. I should like to know which it is you are speaking 
from?— I think I said, " The money has come." That 
was the expression I used, I think. 

3221. Do you remember what he said P — No ; he did 
not make any observation upon it. 



3222. You do not remember his making any observa- J.B.Edwardt. 

tion about it P — No. I do not think he carea to spedi 

anything about money matters. It was not at all 7 Oct. 1880. 

tasteful to his way of conducting an election to find 

money beforehand. 

3223. (3fr. Jeu/ne,) That would make it all the more 
remarkable, would it not, to him, when you called his 
attention to it, that money should be supplied P — I think, 
perhaps, that he must nave known ms friends would 
supply money. 

8224. It must have struck you not exactly as odd, but 
as a departure from Sir Julian s regular way of conducting 
elections, that this mon^ should be sent. You must 
have thought that he had changed his mind, and had 
sent the money P— Yes ; but I think very likely he had 
his friends to do it, rather than do it himself, because he 
had a great objeddon to it, and for aught I know his 
friends volimteered it. lithink Mr. Foord said that his 
friemls had found the money, and not Sir Julian. 

3225. Are you clear that afterwards you mentioned it, 
sometime or another, to Sir Julian, that this money 
had oomeP — ^Yes, I am certain I must have men- 
tioned it. 

3226. And you say Sir Julian did not express any 
surprise, or anything of that kind P— No. 

3227. And did not ask you how you got it p — No. 

3228. He seemed to understand that the money might 
have come P — I suppose he did, or he might have asked 
some question. Wnether he really did or not, I cannot 
say. 

3229. (Mr. Holl.) I notice in your answer to my friend 
you said, " I think Imust have done." Do you mean 
to say, positively, you did tell Sir Julian, or is it your 
impression that you must have done it, because you 
think you would have done it p— I think I certainly must 
have told him. 

3230. Again you use the eroression " I think I must 
** have done it.*^* Do you really remember having done 
it, or do you mean that you think you woidd have done 
it, and therefore must have done it p — Yes, I was going 
to repeat the word ** must," and I dare say I am meaning 
the same thing as you put to me, and when I say 
'* must " it is the same as if I said I did it. I am not 
very positive in speaking, though I may mean as much 
as people who speak more positively. 

3231. Do you remember whether he made any observa- 
tion when you told him p — Not that I recollect. I do not 
think he said anything about it. As I have said, I do not 
think he cared to talk about money, I suppose because 
he had so much. 

3232. Did it surprise you that he should make no 
observation at all about itp— No, because I had pre- 
viously said that it was only what I expected ought to be 
done ; that is, money forthcoming. 

3233. I do not mean whether it surprised you that you 
got the money, but did it not surprise you that he made 
no observation in answer when you told him of it ? — No, 
I was not surprised. There was nothing to be surprised 
at. It was a natural thing to have money. 

3234. I am not asking you whether it was natural to 
have the money, but whether you were surprised, when 
you told him about it, that he had made no observation P 
— No, I was not surprised. 

3235. {Mr. Jeu/ne.) He would have made an observa- 
vation if he had not known about it before P — Yes, I 
should think so. I should think he knew the money was 
forthcoming better than I do, that is to say, incidentally. 
I do not know that he knew it positively. I had no 
knowledge of it till I was at Sandwich. 

3236. {Mr. Holl.) Had you any conversation with hiyii 
afterwards about this money. I understand you to say, 
you think you told him the morning after you received 
ftp— Yes. 

3237. That would be the Saturday morning P— Yes. 

3238. Did you ever have any conversation with hiTTi 
about it afterwards P — ^No. 

8239. You never recurred to the subject again p— No. 

3240. Not on any occasion P — Not at all. I never 
asked him for any money after that. 

3241. Did you ever recur to the fact P Did you ever 
mention to him again the subject of your having received 
this sum of 1,300/. P— No, never. I do not think I men- 
tioned it to anybody. I did inform him that the money 
had come, but beyond that I never alluded to it. 

3242. {Mr. Jetme.) Did Mr. Foord tell you his name at 
that interview P — ^No. 

3243. Did he say who he was P— No. 



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SANDWICH JBLECTION COMMISSION: 



J,B. Edwards. 
7 Oct. 1880. 



3244. You never saw him again after that time P — No, 
I never saw him again. I think he said he was a friend 
of Sir Julian's, but who he was I did not ask, and he did 
not volunteer. 

3245. {Mr. Eoll.) Have you ever heard since anything 
more than the name P — No, that is all. 

3246. And you believe he came from Rochester P — 
Yes. 

3247. Is that all the money that you received in con- 
nection with the election ? — I received no more money 
from any other person. 

3248. What you received from Sir Julian Gtoldsmid 
was 520Z., and this 1,300Z. P— Yes. 

3249. Two cheques of 200Z. and 320Z., and this 1,300L P 
—Yes. , 

8250. You did not receive any money from anyone (I 
am not speaking^ of what you spent yourself) m con- 
nection with this election beyond that 1,8202. P— Not a 
penny. 

3251. How did you dispose of that amount? — I dis- 
posed of the following simisat the election ; Mr. Outwin, 
1,125Z., Cornwall, 2972. 

3252. Was that paid in gold P — Yes, the whole of it 
was paid in gold, except Mr. Cornwall's, and I think some 
of that was in silver, because he had to pay messengers 
and so on. 

3253. What did you'pay besides Outwin and Cornwall ? 
— Ramell, 208Z., and Rose, 680?.; making together 
2,310Z. 

3254. Did you disburse or pay directly or indirectly to 
anyone any sums beyond those r — No. 

3255. liat leaves a balance in your favour of 490Z. 
that you 'spent over and above what you received P — 
Yes. 

3256. Of this 4902., 3002., yon think, you drew it upon 
the 12th of your own money P — ^Yes. 

3257. And as to the other 2002. P— That I had in hand 
at the time of the [election. I paid Hancock, towards 
carriages, 302., and that has been returned by the elec- 
tion agent. There were a lot of carriages ordered from 
Dover, and this man had not the money, and asked me 
to pay 302. on account, and I did do so. Then there was 
Hayward, the printer's bill. There was also a Mrs. Jones, 
a widow here, who had an account for supplying rosettes 
and ribbons ; she very much wanted her money, and I 
said I could not pay it, because I was out of pocket 
already, but I said, if she liked, I would lend her 182., 
which I did do, and took her I.O.U., and those are the 
only moneys I paid. 

3258. And those have not been repaid to you P — No, I 
have not been able to get any money from Sir Julian 
Goldsmid. 

3259. At the time you paid this money to Outwin it 
was not paid in on^ sum, I presume ?— No, I think he 
had two small sums of 502. and 252. in the committee 
room, and then 5002., 3002., and 2502. The small sums 
were before and the other sums just upon the night of 
the election, and day of the election. 

3260. 502. and 252. he had previously P-— Yes, during 
the week 

3261. Do you know what he required those sums for 
upon the night of the election, 5002., 3002., and 2502. ?— 
To carry out the election, J suppose, in the best way he 
could ; ne gave me no account, only that he wanted some 
more money. 

3262. He told you he wanted so much money for the 
purposes of the election ? — Yes. 

3263. Was he more specific than that ? — No, not that 
I know of. I suppose it was well understood, if it was 
required, it was for illegal purposes. 

3264. And you gave it to him P — Yes, I gave it to him. 

3265. Of course you knew that the probabilities were 
that the larger portion of it would be used for ille^ pur- 
poses ? — No, I did not know it, I supposed it. I do not 
know now that it has been expended in that way. I 
have never had any account, with the exception of about 
502. I have an account here that he gave me of committee 
rooms. 

3266. You have not had an account of the other 
expenditure P — No, and never asked for it. 

3267. Now, with regard to Rose, how did you pay him 
that sum of 6802. ?— I paid, I think, upwards of 3002. 
before the election came on from day to day as he 
wanted money? — If he said he wanted 602. 1 gave it to 
him. I think I heard him say that I paid all the 
mon^ about a fortnight afterwards. I think he is 
mistaken in that. Two days after the election I think 



I called upon him and paid some money, and the rest 
was paid about a fortnight afterwards. I had had 
enou^ of it by the time the election was over, and the 
day after the election I started away, and when I 
returned I paid him, because I promised him, although 
I paid it out of my own |)Ocket. 

3268. Do you know how much you paid hiTw before 
the election?— -I have got against Eose 502., 502., and 
1402., making 2402., and then two others 502., making 
3402. ; that would be before the 17th. 

3269. You sajr a day or two after the election you 
think you paid him a small amount ?— Yes. 

3270. And the rest you paid him 10 days or a fort- 
night afterwards ?— Yes. 

3271. With regard to the 3402. and the first payments 
made to Bose, did you give him any instructions how to 
disburse it, or was it left to his own discretion?—! 
should like to explain about Waliaier; it was con- 
sidered that I had nothing to do with Walmer, but 
Mr. Emmerson said it would be convenient if I would 
just attend at Walmer, and when I saw Mr. Eose I 
said, " I do not want to interfere with Walmer ; you 
have the entire management, and Mr. Shmnerson is the 
party I look to, but whatever you have done before, and 
whatever is right, do, but keep the expenses down. 
Mr. Eose had the entire management, tiiough he used 
to submit occasionally things to me. 

3272. He used to take rooms, and do what he thought 
necessary, and you gave him instructions to keep the 
expenses down? — ^Yes. 

3273. In regard to the payments made after the election, 
were you aware that that was to recoup him moneys that 
he had expended P— Yes, some of it ; some of the money 
that I paid before and just after, I suppose, went 
illegally. I have never had any account frpm h\m^ 
except the account that was filed, amounting to 3062. 

3274. You have never had any account beyond that ? 
— No, none. 

3275. He <»une to you and stated that he had 
expended monies to the amount which he asked you 
to recoup him ? — ^Yes. 

3276. Did he give you any particulars as to how the 
money had been spent, or did he teU you tiiat it had 
been expended for the purposes of the election P — He 
gave no particulars ; he used to say he wanted so much 
for bribery, and I said, I wanted to know nothing about 
that. 

3277. He told you it was to pay certain parties to 
whom he had made promises ? — ^Yes, quite so. I merely 
wanted to know the money he wanted, and I did not 
want to know what he did with it, 

3278. You say, having undertaken to pay him what 
he might expen4 you paid him P— Yes, although I was 
wrong in doing so, inasmuch as Sir Julian (S^ldsmid 
said, ** Do not pay anything after the election." 

3279. Did Sir Julian Gk»ldsmid know anything about 
your having paid these amounts ? — No, I never informed 
Sir Julian anything about what I paid. 

3280. Does the same answer apply to the monies you 
gave to Outwin ? — Yes, certainly, I never mentioned it 
to Sir Julian. 

3281. There is a sum of 2972. that you paid to Corn- 
wall, when was that paid to Hi't" ? — ^During the progress 
of the election and immediately afterwards. 

3282. Can you teU how much was paid during the 
progress of the election, and how much afterwards P — It 
is an awkward thing. I see that I put here in my memo- 
randum ** Cornwall and poles, 1102.," some woidd be for 
Cornwall and some for Eamell. 

3283. You paid Cornwall and Eamell altogether 5052. P 
—Yes. 

3284. toid you give them instructions to spend that 
amount according to their judgment p— It was in this 
way, Cornwall had the management entirely of the com- 
mittee rooms and he employed clerks, and so on. 

3285. Clerks and messengers p — Yes. I have here a 
list that he gave me, and I t.hinir it is very similar to the 
list return^ to the Judges, messengers, &c., 1242. 28. ; 
personating agents, guides, clerks, canvassers, poll 
clerks, 612. lis. 6(2. In the election expenses filed the 
other day I extracted with regard to Mr. Cornwall 
certaiii amounts, because the election agent said, " Do 
not put in anything that the law does not allow," and 
therefore I struck out some things. 

3286. I am speaking now of the account that he 
handed in to you and you handed in to the Judges, which 
amoimts to 1242. 28. for messengers, and 612. 17». 6d. for 
personating agents, and so on p— Yes. G^ien there is 



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68 



T. 0. Hall for ont-vofcers 15L, Pilcher, Canterbury 
decidon agent 5^, Briatow, making, and putting up, and 
taking down flagstaff 21, Goymer 12i., Woodocxi 5«., 
stamps 51. 10«., petty cash, sundries, 13Z. l^. 6d., and 
Forrester's initialaon fee 10^. 6d. 

3287. How is the difference made up between that 
and the 2972. which Cornwall had altogether ?— 60Z. was 
paid to Warner and Watts. Then there is 14Z., making 
altogether 3032. 6«. 6d., but I only paid Cornwall 2072., 
leaying a balance of 62. 6«. 6d, 

3288. What was the Ul P — That was paid to a 
Mr. Lownds. 

3289. The 502. was for them to distribute, was it not P 
—I do not know. I think Mr. Warner wanted it at an 
early part of tiie election. Warner was about a great 
deal, and Watts had a committee room I think, and was 
very active, and Lownds was the man who managed 
messengers, bill stickers, and all that sort of thing. 

3290. Bamell 2082., what was that for?~For poles, 
and the band I think he paid out of it. 

3291. I see "Putting up flag poles 1182., is that at 
Deal?— Yes. 

3292. Prince of Wales's Terrace, putting up pole 262., 
could it cost 252. to put up a flagstaff P— I think very 
likely one of the flagstafls that you see along the town 
would cost 502. or 602. It was not merely the putting 
up, but getting ready and prepcoing the ropes, and so on. 
It was a verySne sti&fi^ with mainmast and topmast. I 
asn. afndd I am guilty in the matter ; they were putting 
np a verv fine pole for Roberts upon the Prmce of 
Wales's Terrace, and Sir Julian was a few doors off, and 
I said, " Oh, dear me, we must have a better one than 
that," and tibiey brou^t in a bill of 252. 

3293. It seems to the uninitiated a large sump — 
I complained myself, and said surely there must be a 
mistake. I told Sir Julian about it and asked him to 
^ve me a guess as to the cost, and he said he had seen 
it, and he supposed it would cost 42. or 52., but it 
amounted to 252. and the money was paid. 

3294. Then there are watchers, 112. 15^., I suppose 
that is to watch the poles ? — Yes, and it was quite neces- 
sary, because they used to cut the ropes, causing great 
expense. 

3295. Then taking down the flags, 162. 10^. P— That was 
supposed to be a very reasonable item. 

3296. How is the difference between that amount and 
the 2(^2. made up, there is a difference of about 202., do 
you know of what that consists p — ^The band is not 
returned there. 

3297. How much is that?— 252. ; and the reason why it 
is not put there is this — Sir Julian had a great objection 
to a bsmd and said he never had a band in his l^e. One 
day he said, ** I see you have got a band," upcm which 
I ^irugged my shoulders and said I could not help it. 
It was said there must be a band, and a band was sent, 
and it was paid for, 252., but who sent it I do not 
know. 

3998. Have you ever known such a large expenditure 
for flags, poles, and colours P— This is the first election 
in which I have ever had anything to do with the 
expenses. I have had nothing to do here except to 
pay. 

3299. In your judgment, is there any sufficient reason 
for an expenditure of 6002. or 7002. on each side upon 
flags, colours, rosettes, and so oq, except for the purpose 

of popularity by circulating money over the borough P 

It is a common thing in Deal to have poles and fl^, 
and what one did the other day was to see who should 
have the most. They wanted to put more, they said 
that the other side were getting more up, but I reaUy 
thought we had gone far enough. The real truth is that 
when the Tories had got up a polo here the Liberals 
wanted one there, and so they went on. I do not think it 
hadanvthing to do with voting except in this way that if 
one side had it, and the other side had not, the one that 
had it would get the best of it. 

3300. Is not the object of it to make* the candidate 
popular in the borough by showing that he is spending 
and circulating a good deal of money P— No, here it is 
the common thing to have a great display of flags. 



3301. (Mr. Jeune.) You think the rivalry between the J,B. Edwards. 

two parties is what really brings it about? — ^Yes, I 

think that has a great deal to do with it. I do not know 7 Oct 1880. 

who gave the order, but the first thing after Sir Julian 

came was to start about getting the fla^ and poles. 

3302. There were more flags and poles at this election 
than any other before P — Yes, of recent elections, but 
years gone by there were a great many more. 

3303. One of the witnesses told us that the effect of the 
Act of Parliament in 1863 was to put down poles and 
flags P — Yes, it was certainly, but before tiiat there used 
to be flags and poles to a ^preater extent thaox there was 
this time, and costing ten tmies the money. 

3304. The Act put it down for a time P— Yes, no doubt, 
but all the old practices are creeping in. 

3305. Did they have bands in the old days here P — 
Yes, bands, and rows too. 

3306. For a time the bands disappeared P— I do not 
think they had any bands for some tmie, except of a very 
low character. 

3307. And they came back upon this election P— As I 
have said. Sir Julian Goldsmid had a very great objec- 
tion to it, and said he would not have a band ; but you 
know what it is very weU ; a member is powerless in sudi 
matters, and if a band is sent it must pmy. 

3308. I am not sure that I fully understand about all 
these accounts, but we have a lot of claims here, of which 
a considerable amount has been paid. I do not know 
whether you have any papers indicating how much of 
this account has been paid and how much has not. Here 
is a claim that comes to 1,4792. 12a. 11^., and we see that 
a considerable part of it under the head of RameU, and 
under the head of Cornwall, have been paid by you ; 
what I want to know is whether there has been made out 
a statement showing how much of the claims at present 
remain unpaid P — ^l^ere is no account of that. 

3309. The total claims against Sir Julian Ooldsmid 
in connection with this election appear to be correctly- 
stated in these three papers P — Yes, for Deal and Wal- 
mer ; and Sandwich I know nothing about. 

3310. For Deal it is 1,4792., Wabner 5962. Ss. U., and 
for Sandwich, which you know nothing about, 5932.; 
against that, has anv sum been paid as far a^ you know, 
except the money which has passed through your hands P 
— No, not that I know of ; I think they are all unpaid. 
A fly proprietor came to me the other day who wanted to 
know whether he could have some money on account. 
I told him that I had not got any money, and he said he 
should write to Sir Julian Goldsinid, but whe^er he has 
got any or not I do not know. 

3311. After the election you applied to Sir Julian 
(Joldsmid for the balance due to you P — I wrote to Sir 
Julian Qoldsmid to say that I was out of pocket, and 
that I should be glad of a cheque, but I have not had 
one. I told him I was out of pocket, I think, to the 
extent of 4912. 

3312. Have you applied to Messrs. Lewis and Lewis P 
—Yes. 

3313. Have they paid you anything ?— No, nothing ; 
on the contrary, they sent me a letter the other day, and 
I do not know exactly what they mean by it ; they say 
that I have had enough money. I thought, as Mr. 
Emmerson had got some money, perhaps they would 
send me some, but they have not. They used to write 
very fairly, but they have never paid me money. 

3314. As a matter of fact, they have not paid the 
balance P — No, and they do not mean to pay it accord- 
ing to their account. 

3315. You have received nothing, except the sum you 
told us of ? — No ; here is the letter I received the omer 
day from Messrs. Lewis and Lewis (handing the letter). 

3816. I need not trouble you with that, I think ; I may 
take it that up to the present you are out of pocket 4902., 
which you have actually expended in connection with 
this election, and which nas not yet been repaid ? — ^Yes, 
after the election Sir Julian wrote to me to say that he 
would pav no more, and that I must apply to Messrs. 
Lewis and Lewis. I wrote to them, and fiiey said they 
would audit the accounts and pay, but I have never got 
any money. 



Adjourned to tomorrow at ten o'clock 



H 

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SANDWICH XXECTIOM COMMISSION: 



FOURTH DAY. 



J,B. Edwardt. 
8 Oct. 1880. 



Friday, 8th October, 1880. 



John Bahbeb Edwabds recalled, and forfcher examined. 



3317. {Mr. Boll.) There are two or three inatters 
npoD which I desire to put a few questions; is that 
(hcmdi/ng apaper) the list of claims that had been sent in 
to you P— Yes. 

3318. In respect of the moneys expended in Deal P — 
Yes, some of Tmich are paid, as shown by Mr. Outwin's 
statement. 

3319. Is this an account of all the claims you received 
in respect of Deal P — Yes, the whole of the claims. 

3320. Some of them have been paid P— Yes, about 
600Z. has been paid, leaving about 1,000^ unpaid. 

3321. I sea that the total amount claimed here in 
respect of, and in connection with, the hire of publio- 
hou^s is 145Z. 10«. P— Yes. 

3322. And of that I think 54Z. has been paid p— Yes ; 
there is one item. Woodward and assistant, 17^. 49., which 
is not in connection with the public-houses. 

3323. I put that in connection with the public-houses, 
because Outwin told us he sent for Woodward, in order 
to arrange with the public-houses P — Yes, I think that 
was so ; he was considered a good publican's man. 

3324. Outwin said that he was engaged in connection 
with the hire of public-houses P — Yes, it was so, I think. 

3325. All the other claims mentioned here are claims 
.that have been sent in to you ? — Yes, by the parties. 

8326. The principal ones paid are B^ell, for the flag 
poles and some few other items P — Yes. 

3327. And Cornwall, for the messengers and per- 
sonating agents and clerks P — Yes. 

3328. And then the last seven items in the account 
also came into Cornwall's account p — Yes, 249Z. 6«. 6d, is 
the total. 

3329. Those are the mere payments that have been 
made, of which yon gave tiie details yesterday ? — Yes. 

3330. I do not know whether you have extracted 
the totals of the amounts for different classes of ex- 
penditure ; are you aware that in round numbers the 
total amount for flags, colours, and rosettes, in Deal is 
194L P — ^I have not gone into the rosette question at all ; 
they are merely the poles furnished. 

3331. Are you aware that the amount of claims in 
respect of Deal alone, irrespective of what was spent by 
Bose, at Walmer, in respect of rosettes and flags, is 
194?. ?— No, I do not know it. 

3332. You have not taken out the items at all ? — No, 
not at aUL 

3333. I will not trouble you with any of the smaller 
items. Do you know what this account is of Denne, 
** Central committee-room, refreshments, 1741. Qe. 5d."? 
— Yes, and I think it a most abominable amount, and 
that not half of it ought to be paid ; about half of the 
amount is charged for the conmiittee-rooms, and about 
half for the supply of wines and spirits, and so on, none 
of which, or at least very little, was ordered for the com- 
mittee, or anyone authorised by them ; he took it into 
his own hands to supply these things to parties, if he 
did supply them, without any order. That is one of the 
accounts that I was going to draw your attention to just 
now, in reference to the public-houses. 

3334. I understand that you doubt whether all the 
quantities mentioned were snpplied at all, but if they 
were they were not supplied upon the orders of the 
committee P — ^No, certainly not; of course, the com- 
mittee had a little themselves. I think I had a bottle 
of champagne one day and a bottle of sherry another 
day. I think about half of that amount is a charge for 
the committee-rooms, at the rate of 82. or lOZ. a day. I 
really do not know how the man ever came to send in 
Such an account, and that particular account I have re- 
marked on to more than one person. 

3335. Have you examined into the accounts for mil- 
linery, for flags and colours P — I did cast my eye through 
Mrs. Jones's account, and I think there is nothing un« 
oommon there. 



3336. Does the quantity supplied and the price appear 
to you to be reasonable ?— Yes, it seems so ; she had the 
order, I believe, from someone of the committee. I may 
say it is rather unusual to have a widow to supply in 
these cases, but she is called a very old blue ; she has 
always supported the Liberals, and has always had a bilL 
She has no vote, and it is she that I did not resJly pay, 
but lent the 18Z. on account. 

3337. What was that ; for rosettes or what P—Rosettes 
and ribbons. She has given a very long detailed account. 
I think they were always supplied to parties that came 
in if they gave their names. 

3338. Then there is a retainer fee to T. C. Hall, who 
is he P — He is a solicitor here, and I believe he used to 
be a member, or had something to do with the Liberal 
Association, and the committee thought that he ought to 
be retained. 

3339. Did you retain him ? — No, I did not retain him^ 
except as one of the Liberal Association committee. 

3340. Had you any direction from Sir Julian Goldsmid 
to retain hi m ? — No, not in the least. It was said that 
he had always supported the Liberal Association. 

3341. The Liberal Association took it upon themselves 
to consider that he ought to be retained ? — Yes. 

3342. Do you know that he had anything particular to 
do ? — I think he had to look after the out-voters, to write 
to them, and look them up, and so on. 

3343. There woidd not be a great many of them ; that 
would not be a very arduous duty for a fee of 50 guineas ? 
— I beheve he sent in a claim of 50 guineas, but I do 
not know whether it will be paid ; being a lawyer's claim, 
of course, I have not anything to say about it. 

3344. Are you aware that there is a claim in Cornwall's 
bill of 15L, paid to Mr. Hall for out-voters ?— That is 
for cash supplied to Mr. Hall. 

3345. For cash supph'ed to Mr. Hall to give to out- 
voters to come and vote ? — I suppose it would be for 
carriages and so on. I think Mr. Hall, when he sent in 
his chom, deducted a small portion from the 50 guineas 
on account of a balance of tibe 151. that he did not ex- 
X>end. 

3346. Are you able to tell us how many out-voters 
there were P— No, I do not know. 

3847. You have not interfered with the details ?— No. 

3348. There is an item here of 14Z. to Brown, for 
preparing canvassing and promise books ; was that for 
printing themP — It was dissecting the register and 
putting the names into canvass books, and preparing 
shejBts for the committee rooms ; instructions, I think^ 
they call them. 

3349. What is Mr. Brown?— He is a rate collector 
here. 

3350. How lon^ would that take him to do, a day or 
BO p — ^I should think some days. 

3351. Two or three days ?— Quite. It is not an easy 
niatter to dissect a register, so as to have the names all 
in order, for the purpose of canvassing, and to prepare 
large sheets likewise for the voting. 

3352. Does not it strike you as being a large item, 
14Z. for two or three days' work, to a gentleman in that 
position ? — I do not know, and I think ttiat is the amount 
that has been paid before. 

3353. About how many books were there prepared P — 
Eight or 10, I think. 

3354. For Deal P— Yes. 

3355. Have you got one of them at all p— I do not 
f.hinlr I have any. 

3356. Mr. Brown is a voter, I presume ?— They went 
into different hands of the committee for the purpose of 
canvassing. 

3357. Mr. Brown is a voter, I preaume? — His son 
did all this work for him, who is with him, and who ifl 
not a voter. 



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3358. {Mr. Jetme.) What is meant by " preparing/' he 
did not write anything in the books? — ^Yes, he wrote all 
the names of the yoters, and had them all arranged, 
which is not the case in the register ; they are all higgledy 
piggledy in the register, and they were obliged to be 
brought into different streets, and it was omj by the 
assistance of Mr. Brown that it could be well done, 
beoanse, being a rate collector, he knows where eyery- 
body hyee. 

3359. In fact, it was arranging and copying oat 2,000 
names ? — No, it woidd not be 2,000 names, because it 
was only for Deal. 

3360. Then it would only be about 1,200 names?— 
Yes, but in addition to that there are the strike sheets. 

3361. What are the strike sheets P— Sheets with the 
names of all the yoters, which are stuck up in the com- 
mittee room upon the day of the election, so as to enable 
you to strike out the names of those who had yoted. 

3362. That would be, in point of fact, a copy of the 
register for each district P — Yes, that would he a copy 
of the register. 

3363. A mere copy of the register ? — ^Yes. 

3364. Who did the strike lists p— They were done by a 
Mr. Goymer, I think. 

3365. lOZ. is charged for that ?— That is an old charge, 
a charge that has always been made. 

3366. I understand you to say that the strike list is 
only a copy of the register ? — It is not simply in snudl 
writing, but in yery large writing. 

3367. I suppose that is what any derk could haye done 
for 58. or 10«. ? — I should haye to pay a clerk more than 
that anyhow. 

3368. (Mr.HoU.) Still an ordinary copying clerk would 
do it for 11. ? — ^It is in yery large writing. 

3369. (Mr..Jeune.) Howeyer, it is a charge that is 
alwa^rs made and that is why it was made upon this 
occasion P — This man has always done it, and I belieye 
he has always had 10^ for it. He has sdways been a 
staunch supporter of the Liberals without canyassing or 
anything of the kind. 

3370. (Mr. Holl.) Then I see " Hancock, carriages," 
32Z. lbs., and 121. 18«., making 66Z. 13«., and 30Z. of that 
has been paid P— Yes, that was a payment that he had 
to make upon the day of the election for flys from Doyer, 
and I gaye him 30^. 

3371. The charge altogether for carriages is 55Z. 13«. ? 
— ^I think his account shows what was for himself and 
what he had to hire from Doyer. 

3372. There are two accounts for rope to Philip Finnis 
and deorge Finnis : 32Z. 17^. 6d. to George Finnis and 
34Z. 78. 3d. to Philip Finnis, mi^dng 671. 4s. 9d. for rope ; 
was that rope that was purchased or hired P — ^Purcha^, 
none returned. 

3373. It seems to me an enormous amount to be 
expended for rope? — I think the charges are correct, 
though no doubt it is a yery large sum. 

3374. Has any inyestigation been made to ascertain 
whether these quantities really were supplied, and so 
forth? — I think perhaps Mr. Ramell, who had the 
ordering of it, would know. 

3375. He would be able to speak to the details ?— Yes. 

3376. It does not state the quantities here ; it is put 
down as 121 of rope ; is that feet or yards p — I do not 
know ; it woidd be as the boatmen ordered it ; fathoms 
I should think. 

3377. Or it may be cwts., and in fact I think it is so. 
Howeyer, personally you haye no knowledge of the 
quantities used ? — No. 

3378. What was done with all this 671. worth of rope P 
— ^It was used for rigging the flagstaff and poles. 

3379. After the election was oyer what was done with 
it p— I am afraid that it fell as a perquisite to the boat- 
men who took them down. • 

3380. 67 L is paid for rope, and as soon as the poles 
haye been up for a day or two tliey pull them down and 
the whole of the rope becomes a perquisite ? — Yes, it is 
a common thing at Deal for the boatmen to haye a little 
perquisite in rope. 

3381. As soon as the election was oyer this lot of rope 
was diyided between somebody P — ^I suppose those who 
put the poles up and took the poles down did not return 
them, but I do not know it. 

3382. Did they keep the poles as well P— No, they 
were merely hired. 

3383. It strikes me as rather hard that they should 
make so large a charge for taking them down ? — That 
was thought to be a yery small sum. 

Q3d34. 



3384. There is a charge of 16Z. 10«. for taking down, J.B. Edwards. 

plus 67Z. worth of rope ?— I do not think you quite under^ 

stand the nature of some of these flagpoles ; ttie large flair ^ Oct. 1880. 

staff required a great deal of putting up and a great deS 

of taking down. Mr. Ramall said he had a piciure of it. 

I think it would show that it really was something to do. 

3385. (Mr. Jeune.) Going back to Hancock's bill I see 
" 12 horses and carriages with driyers, and expenses 
" going to Doyer, 221. ISa," What did they go to Doyer 
for?— Hancock himself went to Doyer to engage these 
flys; that is a part of it, and the rest he had to pay to 
the parties for the flys. 

3386. Hancock went to Doyer and ordered flys there ? 
—Yes, because they could not be got here. 

3387. The other side had taken all the flys?— The 

Srincipal fly-proprietor here is Mr. Olds, and of course 
e kept them for his own side.' Hancock had only two 
himself and I do not think he could get another fly j as 
it was, we were yery badly proyided with carriages, and 
he went to Doyer and thought he had made a yery good 
bargain, I belieye. 

3388. (Mr. HoU.) He makes out a bill of 32^ 16s for 
the use of two flys?— Two or three flys ; but that* was 
during the whole of the election, 

3389. That would be only seyen or eight days ?— They 
are pair-horse flys. If Sir Julian had won the election 
the biU would haye been more probably, but being a 
losing election he made out a moderate bui 

3390. (Mr. Jeune.) Yes, I think you are right; he 
charges two guineas for the carriage and pair a day, and 
driyer, bs. I do not think it is out of the way as things 
go P— I do not think so ; there were a good many flys 
had from time to time. 

3391. (Mr. Holl.) Then I see *'Pittock, Draper. 
** 21^. 15«. 6<f." ; that is part of the flag and rosette 

department. Then Bedman, linings, 71. Is. Id.**? I 

do not think I looked at any of these bills except 
** Mrs. Jones," and I do not know how it was I came to 
look at that. 

3392. You haye not inquired into them ?— No. 

3393. Then there is "W. Ramell, painter, 53Z."P— 
ThatI think was getting up all the flags, and most of it 
I think was paid out of pocket. 

3394. That is not the Ramell that will account for the 
poles P— Yes. 

3395. This is apparently for making flags or colours P 
-Yes. 

3396. I see in his account, "Mr. Long 6Z., Mr. BaQey 
** IL," and so on P— Yes, that was for making up the 
different colours. 

3397. Then I see, " Paid men for laboui; 61. 10s • 
" own expenses and labour, lOL," if he paid all thes^ 
people these sums amounting to 4Sl what labour did he 
bestow himself which required lOZ. for himself P— There 
was a yery large display of flags, and they were all new 
and required a great deal of making up. 

3398. This is not for the material, because* that is 
chai;ged separately— the making up alone comes to bSl P 
— Yes. 

3399. (Mr. Jeune.) Is there anything to show the 
quantity or number of flags supplied for this money P— 
I do not think there is any account that would show it 
except the draper's account which, would proye the 
quantity of yards supplied. Upon Prince of Wales 
Terrace alone I should think there were 50 flags made 
in a peculiar shape and style. 

3400. Then there is a charge for making 24 horse 
cloths, ordered by W. James, what are those P— That is 
Mr. Walter James. I suppose he has had experience at 
other places where they haye had horse cloths with the 
name of the candidate painted or worked upon it and 
put oyer the horse to show that the carriages were those 
of Sir Julian. I suppose it was an idea of his. At 
different places they haye different plans. 

3401. (Mr. HoU.) The next item is, "Baldwin, draper 
•• 352. 10s.," that would be of course for material P— 
Yes. 

3402. Then Ralph, of the ** Forester's Arms." for rope 
&c 19L 18*. ?-It is **rope, &c.," I think that included 
a charge for his house. 

3403. It is, " Supplied to sundry parties 300 weight 
^ rope and refreshments during the election ; '» does 

he keep a pubUo-house P— Yes, the " Forester's Arms." 

3404. Do you know how much of this amount was 
rope and how much was " &c." P— No, I do not know at 
alL 

8405. Just look at that bill (handing the same) and see 
whether it means hundredweight, or what isyd^— I do T 

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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION : 



JJB. Edwardi, nofc think it is hundredweight, it m i&Htxoms I should 

— think. 

8 Oct. 1880. 3406. {Mr, Jeune,) I see that one hundredweight of 

'■ rope is put down here at 5L, so that three hundredweight 

would Jbe 15Z., and it would represent 15?. for rope, and 

4>l. f or° ref reslunents ? — I cannot say whether it means 

three hundredweight and a half, or fathoms. 

3407. It would seem here that rope is sold by the 
weight ?— It may be so. 

3408. {Mr. Roll.) I do not understand that any steps 
have been taken to at all check these accounts, and to 
ascertain the correctness of them P — No, not in tiie least 
by myself, whether the parties who sent the claims in to 
me ascertained I do not know. Some were supplied 
through Mr. Bamell, and some through Mr. OomweU. 

3409. They were not all delivered directly to you by 
the parties ?— No. I handed a paper in yesterday of a 
list tiiat came through Bamell ; he got them in and sent 
them to me. 

3410. Some came directly to you ?— Very few. 

3411. Some came through Bamell, and some through 
CJomwell P— Yes, and very few came to me direct. 

3412. Then we have Bamell's charge for putting up 
and taking down poles, 118?., and Prince of Wales 
Terrace 25?., that is only for putting them upp — Pre- 
paring them, rigging them, and putting them up. It is 
put down there, ** Putting up," but it comprises a great 
deal more than simply putting the poles up. 

3413. Then we have, "Watchers, HI. 15*.," and 
"Taking down poles, 16Z. 10«."P— Yes, the watchers 
were very necessary here, because these flags extended a 
long way, the whole length of the town. There were 
some hundreds of poles, and it was an amusement upon 
the part of the other side, and indeed it might have been 
so on our own side to cut them down. 

3414. The other side had watchers too ?— Yes, I should 
think so ; after certain poles had been found cut down 
it was found absolutely necessary to have watchers. 

3415. {Mr. Jeune.) It is possible even you think, that 
your own side did it? — ^Yes, to make another job it is 
possible, but I will not say it was so. 

3416. (Mr. Roll) Then taking down " staffs, 16Z. 10^." ? 
— ^Yes, and I recollect it was tibought to be a very small 
sum. 

3417. Then, " Pockett and Hougham, out-voters, 7Z.," 
what is thab ? — Pocket is a gentleman living in London, 
I think, and Hougham is a man living a long way off. 

3418. Were these sums that Mr. Bamell paidP — 
Yes. 

3419. Then we have, " Per Mr. Oomwell, messengers, 
" 124?. 28 ji' and "61?. 17«. 6d. for clerks and personating 
" agents." That we shall call Comwell for P— Yes, all 
of which I went through with Mr. Comwell. The book 
is not forthcoming, and Mr. Comwell thinks he sent it 
to me, but I cannot find it. It is not suppresBed for the 
purpose of keeping anything back, I am quite sure of 
that, but I think he must be mistaken in thinking that 
he sent it to me. Some few of these claims were paid 
upon the Saturday, and the rest were paid immediately 
after tiie election, and the book contained all the names 
and amoxmts, and, I believe, out of them tliere was 
hardly a single voter, because Mr. Comwell, being an 
old electioneering man, woidd not have messengers 
voters. 

3420. You say Mr. Comwell says that book was sent 
to you P — Yes, he says it was. 

3421. Have you seen it yourself P — If ever it was sent 
to my house in a parcel I have a glimmering idea that 
I have seen a brown paper parcel, but I never looked at 
at it, and I cannot find it. I still think he must have it 
himself. 

3422. Do you say that yon went through the accounts 
with him p— Yes, at the time, and in totting up he 
produced the book. 

3423. You saw the book ?— Yes, I saw it then. 

3424. Whether it has been mislaid at your house, or 
whether he has mislaid it, you cannot tell ? — Yes. 

3425. Do I imderstand you in regard to this item of 
124?. for messengers there were not many of them 
voters P — Very few, if any. He told me of one man in 
particular who was a voter, and he declined to pay him, 
and he left the Liberals accordingly. 

3426. (Mr. Jmne.) You mean that Mr. Oomwell 
recognised it as wrong to employ voters in such a 
capacity P—Yee. 

3427. He seems to be rather singular down here P— 
I do not know, but he had an idea of his own that we 
ought not to have voters and pay them as messengers. 



3428. I know it may be an idea of his own, but it is 
an idea in which most people ought to share P — ^And do 
share perhaps. 

3429. {Mr. Roll.) As r^ards the personating agents 
or clerks, were they voters p — Yes, some of them. 

3430. Were the messengers voters' sons P — ^Yes, very 
likely, many of them were boys. The difficulty was to 
keep down the number. 

3431. How many were there to represent this item of 
124?. for seven days during the election P — ^Mr. Comwell 
will recollect more about it. I had nothing to do with 
the ordering of them, but there were continual spplica- 
tions. 

3432. These messengers were many of them lads P — 
Yes, most of them. 

3433. One would assume that there must have been 
nearly 100 messengers P — ^Yes, no doubt there were more 
than 100. 

3434. That is one for every 10 voters in the town ; 
that does not look like keeping the expenses down P — ^It 
was, we might have employed a great many more. 

3435. I gather from you that very numerous applica- 
tions to be empployed were made ? — ^Yes, a very great 
many. 

3436. Everybody expected to be employed P— Yes, 
and if not they were offended. 

3437. A large number of voters expected to have their 
relatives and sons employed as messengers p— I do not 
know whether they were sent by their fathers, but they 
came and applied for the employment. I had nothing 
to do with the employment of many of them. 

3438. There was a difficulty in keeping the number 
down P — Yes, so Mr. Comwell informed me, and he was 
a good deal blackguarded from time to time for not 
taking more on. 

3439. (Mr, Jeune.) Pretty nearly every voter expected 
to be employed, or to have his son employed P — I think 
very likely. I know there were some very respectable 
boys who I should have thought ought not to be 
there. 

3440. (Mr. Roll.) Then as regards "Personating 
" agents and committee room clerks, 61?. 17«. 6d.;" 
the personating agents woidd be only employed upon 
the d&y of the election ; do you know what they were 
paid apiece p — I think it was a guinea. 

3441. How many of them were there P — ^I do not know, 
but Mr. Comwell can tell you. 

3442. Do you know how many committee room clerks 
there werep — I do not know. Mr. Comwell had the 
entire management. 

3443. Although he may have mislaid the book pro- 
bably he will be able to give us an idea of the numbers, 
and what they were paid p — Yes. I do not think that 
the book could ever have been sent to me. It is a 
mistake, I think, to suppose so. 

3444. Then "Out-voters per T. C. Hall;" do you 
know how '^^many out-voters there were, and how much 
was paid to each, and where they came from ? — No. 

3445. I think in Mr. Hall*s claim, a certain amount 
was deducted that he had not expended of the 15?. ? — 
Yes. 

3446. Then we have " Goymer, services in committee 
" room, 12?.;" what does that represent P — He was there 
the whole of the time from the conmiencement, from 
8 in the morning until very late at night, taking charge 
of the clerks and parties wno were working from time to 
time at circulars, and all that sort of thing ; that was the 
charge he made. 

3447. How many days was he there P — I suppose from 
the Monday to the Tuesday following. 

3448. Upon Tuesday you began to work really, did 
you not p— Yes. 

3449. Then it was seven days? — I believe the whole 
of Sunday he was there, and it may be he would expect 
double pay for that. 

3450. It would be about 30«. a day. What is Goymer P 
— He is a man in poor circumstances, who has been in 
better circumstances. He has always been a supporter 
of the Liberals, and always had the office. It is quite 
necessary to have old hands, because they understand 
all about the things. I believe Mx. Comwell thought it 
rather high, and Mr. Gtoymer thought it rather low. I 
do not know whether he made a greater charge, and it 
was settled for 12?. 

3451. Then I suppose the last item is your own P — 
Yes. 



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3462. The total of these claimB in the Deal aoootint is 
1,479Z. 128. lid. P— Yes. 

34 53. Apart from Rose's own aooount at Walmer, there 
are items to the amount of 290Z. 2«. Ody and I will ask 
yon a word or two about them. Is that {handmna 
paj>er) a full account of the Walmer clMms P— Yes, a full 
account. 

3454. The total of it amounts to 596Z. 8^. dd.?— 
Yes. 

3455. Of which, 306Z. 6». 8d, consists of Rose's 
account P— Yes ; of which he has given the details, I 
think. 

3456. The first item I see is Miller's account for 
carriages, 44Z. 11«. 6d. P— Walmer is totally separate, 
and more carriage accommodation is required m Walmer. 

3457. That is in addition to the carriage charge claimed 
in the Deal account of 55^., so that it comes to over 100^ 
for carriages for Walmer and Deal together p— Yes ; that 
was for eight or ten days. 

3458. Have you examined the account sent in by 
Mr. Miller ?— I saw him the other day, and he wanted 
to be paid. I told him I had no money to pay him with, 
and he informed me it was a very moderate bill for a 
great nxmiber of carriages. He has a great many car- 
riages, brakes, and other kinds. 

3459. What was the amount charged upon the day of 
the election, and the amount charged previously; do 
you know P— I do not know ; but the account would 
show. 

3460. I see that 35Z. is charged for carriages prior to 
the day of the election, and upon the day of the election 
about lOZ. What were the carriages required for prior 
to the day of the election ; because I see some days as 
much as 3Z. 18». Od. is charged for carriages, prior to the 
election ? — Sir Julian woidd have carriages, and the 
committee would have carriages, for the purpose of 
canvassing. 

3461. (Mr. Turner.) In Walmer p— Yes ; there is Upper 
Walmer and Lower Wahner. 

3462. (Mr. HoU.) I suppose the same person would 
not canvass Lower and Upper Walmer P— No. People 
are fond of riding in carriages at the time of elections. 

3463. (Mr. Jeune,) One day I see you had six car- 
riages out, and another day three carriages ?— I do not 
know who had the carriages. I was often in Walmer, 
but never could find one. I used to say sometimes that 
I should like a carriage to drive back in, but I never 
could find one, and I always had to walk, unless I met a 
friend who drove me back. 

3464. (Mr. Holl.) Walmer does not seem to me to be 
more thaii a mile from one end to the other, and it is 
diflicidt to understand how you would want six carriages 
one day and three another? — I think parties used to 
order a carriage, whether it was reaUy wanted or not. 

3465. You do not know anything of the detail beyond 
that ?— No. 

3466. Then Hookman, painter, 97. 12»., that is flag 
making P — Yes. 

3467. Or is that for painting flags p— I do not know 
exactly. 

3468. You do not know what that is P— No. 

3469. I see in his account he says, "Writing upon 
** flags." I suppose it means averaging 9 inches, dd. a 
letter. He says, "Writing upon flags 204 letters, 
** 71. ISs." Is that painting them upon the flags P— 
Yes ; there were divers names and mottoes. 

3470. Are they sewn in, or painted p— Painted. 

3471. (Mr. Jeune.) Do you mean painted on the flags p 
—Yes. 

3472. (Mr. HaM.) Upon the canvas P— Yes. 

3473. (Mr. Jmne.) Is 9(Z. a letter charged at other 
times than at election times p — I do not know ; it is so 
seldom you have flags painted. I have several flags, but 
none of them painted. 

3474. {Mr. Eoll.) If you wanted your name painted 
upon your office door, they would not charge you ^d. a 
letter P — I do not know. 

3475. It might be so at election times P— Yes. 

3476. The next item is, "Pearson, * Queen's Head,* 
" central committee rooms and refreshments, 
" 41Z. 18«. 4^." He keeps a public-house at Walmer ? 

Yes, the " Queen's Head ;" and that is where the 

central committee rooms were held. 

3477. Is that the same Mr. Pearson who superintended 
the flag department P — No, that is another Pearson. 
This Pearson' id the landlord of the " Queen's Head." 



3478. I see that of the charge of 41i. 1%h. 4^., lOZ. is J.B. Edwards 

for the central committee room, and the rest for refresh- 

ments. This cannot be for refreshments only supplied 8 Oct. 1880. 

to the committee ? — I do not know. Mr. Bose had the 

entire management of it, and I did not know that there 

were any refreshments. 

3479. I see that for days prior to th^election there are 
charges from 18«. 6d. to 21. odd for refreshments, and 
then when we come to the 17th it mounts^up to 47. 6a. Sd., 
and upon the day of the election it mounts up to about 
16Z. P — I expect they had a dixmer upon the day of the 
election. 



Do you know how that is p — No, I do not know 
at aU. I suppose it was Mr. Bose's manner of conducting 
th^ election to have these refreshment houses, but I had 
no knowledge of it. I think he said that he consulted 
with me about it, but I was quite surprised when the 
bills came in, and I said, " What does this mean 
" Mr. Bose, we do not have these things at Deal." . 

3481. I was observing that neither upon the Conser- 
vative side or upon the other side, are there at Deal these 
charges p — No, excepting in the case of Mr. Denne, and 
he never had authority to do it. 

3482. Then the next item is Bullen, of the "'Lord 
" Clyde,' committee room and refreshments. 111. lOs. ;" 
and I see that item is made up of a charge of 51. for 
committee room and 61. 10a. for refreshments P — The com- 
mittee room would be all right. 

3483. I know ; but I am s^)arating the charge for the 
committee room, from the 61. 10a. for refreshments P — 
I was not in the least aware of it till the bills came in. 

3484. That makes 38?. already for refreshments p— I 
think upon the day of the election, at all these houses 
they had a dinner. 

3485. I find that the charge for refreshments at 
Walmer is 77Z. 18a. ?— Very likely. 

3486. (Mr. Jmmc.) Amongst about 300 voters P— Yes. 

3487. It is nearly 802. for refreshments for a week ; 
you could have with that amount have given all the 
voters in Walmer for the time break&st, dinner, and 
supper ?— It is only 1,600 shillings, and divided by 300 
it only gives 5a. for each voter. 

3488. (Mr. Holl.) But there are some voters who would 
not condescend to accept it P — Yes, I shoidd think there 
would be some that would not have any refreshments at 
the expense of the candidate. 

3489. I do not suppose there would be more than two 
thirds, and if it be so, it makes it a larger amount to be 
divided amongst the two-thirds that are left p — Dinner 
is not to be had upon an election day without paying 
pretty considerably for it. At most of these houses I 
know they had a dinner, and I dare say all the clerks 
and everybody had a dinner at the " Queen's Head." 

3490. Then there is Axon, of the " Army and Navy," 
and there is a charge for committee room and refreish- 
ments, 121. .3a., of wliich amount 71. 3a. is for refreshments. 
Then Morris, of the " Life Boat," 117. 19a. 6d., of whicli 
61. 19a. 6d. is for refreshmente. Then Winter, of the 
" Drum," IIZ. la. ; it does not appear how that is divided, 
but it Would be, use of committee room 51. ; and then I 
see * * Expense of meeting 27. , " and then * * Expenses upon 
" the election day " ? — I think there was a meeting in a 
booth. 

3491. Then West, of the " Wellesley Arms," refresh- 
ments, ISl. 19a. 4d. P— 1 think at the " Wellesley Arms " 
there was a dinner. 

3492. That is all for refreshmente ? — Mr. Bose 
informed me that there was some mistake about it ; the 
dinner had been ordered by one man and counter ordered 
by him, but the landlord said it was too late, and supplied 
the dinner, and sent in the bill. 

3493. But this is not charged as a dinner ; it is a charge 
for refreshments, 187, 19a. M., from the 10th to the 18th, 
as ordered p — Mr. Bose disputed it, and said he never 
ordered it ; but it was ordered by a member of the 
committee. 

3494. Then I see, in addition to the 447., Miller's 
account for carriages, there is a charge by Minter, of 
Upper Walmer, for carriages 97. 13a. 6d, making 
altogether 557. ; and then Knight, for carriages, 2L 7a, ; 
Ayers, for carriages, 47. 13a., really making 607. odd at 
Walmer alone for carriages ? — Yes. I do not want to say 
anything against Walmer, but it has always had a 
character of being extravagant in conducting elections. 

3495. (Mr. Jmine.) I think it has done itself full justice 
this time? — Mr. Bose was cautioned by me, from in- 
Btructions that I liad from Mr. Emmerson, to be sure to 
keep the expenses down, because they had to complain 

12 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



J.B. Edwardt, 
8 Oct. 1880. 



npon the last occfMsion at Walmer. Mr. Bose felt 
agrieyed, and fauoieB that he has kept them down upon 
this oocasion. 

3496. (Mr. HolL) Then the next is Pointer and Co., 
drapers, 9/. 16«., that is for rosettes. Then ** Woodcock 
*• ditto, 21. 17a. 9d.," and another Woodcock for the same, 
11. Ss. 9d., making altogether 141. for rosettes, and that 
is in addition to all that Mr. Bose himself spent and 
supplied ? — I think Mr. Bose is more particular in respect 
of flags — the blue calico. 

3497. For calico alone it is 55Z. ; he does not appear 
to have stinted himself. Then we hare Loyns, draper, 
31. 128. 3d. ; that is for bows P— I think he had a large 
bill against iJie other side, and I think there was some 
split about it. 

3498. (Mr. Jeuw.) Yes you are right P— I tkink there 
was some split about it. 

3499. (Mr. Holl.) Then there are some small items for 
boards, and we have ** Verrier, rope for poles, 20L 6«." 
That is in addition to the 80/. spent in Deal, so that in 
rope alone altogetiier over lOOZ. has been spent. Then 
we have " Trollope, hire of poles, SI. 3«.," and again we 
have Mr. Golds, of Upper Walmer, draper, 19Z. 2«. dd. 
In this account alone, in round numbers, we have 622. 
for carriages P— Walmer is considered a little more 
aristocratic than Deal. 

3600. In this account we have 621. in Walmer for 
carriages ; for flags, colours, and rosettes^ in round 
numbers, 601. spent b^ Mr. Bose, and additional items 
in this account amountmg to 462., making altogether 106L 
expended for flags and colours, and in addition we have 
221. for making, bringing up Uie expenditure upon flags 
and colours and making to 1282. in Walmer alone, inde- 
pendently of the claims for poles and rope P — I do not 
think there is much for poles. 

3601. In this account for rope and poles it is 23L odd, 
but in Bose's account there is a charge of 662. for poles 
and rope, so that the total expenditure upon poles and 
rope in the Walmer account altogether is 892. odd, and 
for flags, colours, poles, rope, and making, in round 
numbers it is 2172, or 2182. for Walmer alone p — Very 
likely. 

3602. Out of an account of 6192, for Walmer we have 
2172. or 2182. for poles, flags, colours, rope, and making, 
nearly 802. for refreshments, 62L for carriages, leaving 
for what one would think more legitimate expenses 
apparently a very moderate amount P — ^Walmer has been 
always distinct m their management from Deal, and I 
suppose that is their way of domg it. 

3603. (Mr. Jeune.) There is one thing I am not quite 
satisfied about, upon the Friday you went to Mr. Em- 
merson, and met that man who was supposed to be 
Foord P— -Yes. 

3504. How came you to go to Mr. Emmerson? — 
Because Mr. Emmerson told me he expected somebody. 

3505. When did Mr. Emmerson tell you that P— When 
I was at Sandwitch tliat morning. 

3606. You were at Sandwich the same morning P — 
Yes, I was often over at Sandwich. 

3507. Emmerson told you he expected someone to 
come over with money P — Yes. 

3508. And told you to come and see him that after- 
noon P— No, he told me someone was expected, and I 
said I intended going back by the train, but if the 
gentleman was coming I had better stay, and accordingly 
the gentleman did come, and I followed on to Mr. 
Emmerson*s office. 

3609. You were there entirely on account of what Mr. 
Emmerson told you P — No, I was in Sandwich. 

3510. What caused you to meet Mr. Foord, and to ex- 
pect to meet Mr. Fooid, was only from what you heard 
from Mr. Emmerson P — Yes. 

3511. Did Mr. Emmerson tell you how he came to 
think that someone would come down that Friday and 
bring money p — No. 

3612. Did you not ask him P — ^No, I certainly did not. 

3613. I do not quite understand how it happened ; did 
he say to you that he expected somebody tluit afternoon 
with money P — Yes. 

3514. Did you not say, "How come you to know it — 
who has told you " P — ^No, certainly not. 

3615. You did not ask him P — No, certainly not. 

3616. What did you think P— How do you mean, 
"WhatdidlthinkP" 

3517. How did you think Emmerson had known that 
somebody was coming that afternoon with money P — ^I 
supposed that he must have known it from Sir Julian 
Goldamid. 



3518. That is what you supposed at the time P— Yes 
for this reason, that Sir Julian Goldsmid had said as I 
stated yesterday, that he did not understand finding 
money for elections before the day of the election and 
in fact, that he never paid until after the election and 
that was how I supposed that he had arranged for money 
to be brought ; and it is a common thing, as I have said 
to have so much money down, and so it ought to have 
been here, but Sir Julian Goldsmid seemed to have a 
great aversion to it, not on account of paying, but he did 
not think it the right way of doing business. 

3519. When Mr. Emmerson told you to come, and he 
expected money would come, you had no doubt in your 
mmd that Sir Julian Goldsmid had tcAA Mr. Emmerson 
that money would come P— I suppose so. I do not know 
how otherwise he woidd know it, but I did not ask Mr. 
i^Mnerson, because, as I say, I really supposed some^ 
thing of the kind myself, though I had not been informed 
by Sir Julian Goldsmid that it would be so. Mr. 
Emmerson I always looked upon as the head of the party 
here, and I suppose that was how it came to him ; he is 
always applied to by members or candidates in the first 
instance. 

3520. Was Mr. Emmerson more in communication 
mth Sir Julian Goldsmid than you were P— -Before the 
election I think he saw Sir Julian Goldsmid, but I never 
saw him, and afterwards, of course, if Sir Julian was over 
at Sandwich ; he would see Mr. Emmerson, and I believe 
he used to %o over there very often. 

3521. I suppose you have no doubt now that that 
money came by Sir Julian Goldsmid^s order P— I will 
not say order. I should think he knew that money 
would come. 

3522. You have no reason for thinking otherwise ; we 
want to know, for the purpose of investigating, if neces- 
sary, the matter a little further P—Mr. Foord, as I stated 
yesterday, remarked that it was supplied by Sir Julian 
Goldsmid's friends ; I do not think it was Sir Julian's 
money. 

3523. Mr. Foord said that the money was supplied by 
Sir Julian Goldsmid's friends p— Yes ; I believe it was 
Bochester that Sir Julian was sitting member for ? 

3524. Yes P — ^I think there his committee always used 
to pay anything, and he never was asked for money 
except at the last occasion, and he lost his election in 
consequence, because he would not submit to some little 
arrangement that was required of him. 

3525. Except what you have told us, Foord said that 
the money was supplied by Sir Julian Goldsmid's friends ; 
have you any reason that you can give us for knowing or 
supposing that Sir Julian knew of tliis money coining P 
— No, not any. 

3526. Nothing that you heard from himself P— No. 

3527. Or from Mr. George Lewis P— No, I never had 
any communication with Mr. George Lewis. Mr. Geoige 
Lewis was not upon the carpet at all until after the 
election. 

3528. He might have told you after the election p— No, 
he told me about Mr. Foord ; he enquired whether I 
knew who the gentleman was, and I said I did not know. 

3529. You had a conversation with Mr. George Lewis 
about Mr. Foord P— No, not about Foord ; he asked me 
whether I knew who it was who brought tiie money, and 
I said **No." He said, "Have you not heard his 
name," and I said ** No," and he said ** Foord." 

3530. Did he say who Foord was P— No, but since then 
I have heard from Mr. Emmerson that he is from 
Bochester, or that way. 

3531. When was it that you had that conversation 
with Mr. George Lewis, was it at the time of the election 
petition P — No, since, I think ; I have seen Mr. Lewis 
twice, and it was after he had filed the petition. 

3532. How came you to be taUdni^ with Mr. George 
Lewis upon the subject ; how did the subject come up P 
— I was there about my accounts. 

3533. Mr. George Lewis perfectly well knew then, of 
course, that you had received the 1,3002. ?--Quite so. 

3534. And then he said to you, ** Do you know who it 
" was brought the money ? — ^les. 

3536. And you said, "I do not know," and he said 
that it was Foord ?— I think he said, '* Are you quite sure 
"you do not know," and I said really I did not know, 
and I had never made any inquiry. 

3636. And then he told you it was Foord?— Yes. I 
suppose it was Sir Julian's way of doing it. I am sure 
I had nothing to do with it. 

3537. When you went to talk to Mir. Geoige Lewis 



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abont ihese aooonnts, did he seem to know that this 
1,5002. had oome down ? — ^Yes, certainly. 

3538. Yon did not inform him of the fact, or anything 
of the kind F— No, certainly not. 

3539. He knew all about it? — I do not know that he 
may Imew anything, except the 1,3002. which I had I do 
not know that he said anything abont the other 2002., 
but if he knew about one he must haye known abont the 
other. 

3540. He knew perfectly well before yon spoke to him 
upon the subject that you had had that 1,3002. ? — ^Yes, 
quite 80. 

3641. Now you conducted this election. Do you think 
that politics had anything to do substantially with the 
result of this election. Do you think that political 
matters had any influence at all on the result, or was it 
entirely a matter of spending money, and so on? — I 
don't tnink it was one or the other. I don't think politics 
had anything to do with it, and I hardly think money 
oarried the election. They wanted a change. People 
had been Liberal so long they thought they would like 
a change, just as in the geneial election, people turned 
from Oonservatiye to Liberal. 

3542. You think that had a great deal to do with it. 



do you?— Yes, they wanted a change, and Mr. Roberts J.B.Edvardt, 

seemed a yery popular man with plenty of money. 

Mr. Hugessen was yery popular, but he had not plenty 8 Oet. 1880. 
of money. -i....-...^ 

3548. Then you do not think political causes really 
operated in the matter at all ? — ^I think yery little ; that 
is my own opinion, nor can I understand how else there 
oould be sucn a change oyer. 

3544. (Mr. HoU.) Do you know of any other reason 
for Mr. Boberts being so popular, except that he had 
plenty of money and n>ent it ?— Well, he seemed to be 
a yenr genial man, and he was about with eyerybody, 
and droye his carria^s, and made a great d^ of flash 
here, and, of course, it took pleople. 

3545. (Mr. Turner.) He was spending a good deal of 
money here ?— I don't know what he spent ; I duesay 
he did. 

3546. (Mr, Jeune.) We do now. Now one other ques- 
tion, which you can answer from your experience. What 
do you think the effect of the ballot has been ; do you 
think it has operated to tend to diTniTn>li expense, or 
conduce to the purity of elections ? — On the contrary, 
for I think people haye it on both sides now, and yote 
as they like. 



Fbbdbbiok Sfbnoeb Olokb sworn and examined. 



JF. S. Cloke. 



3547. (Mr. Jeime,) You were the sub-agent at Sand- 
wich P— Yes. 

3548. What is your occupation ?— I am clerk to the 
€hiardianfl of Eastry Union. 

3549. And you were sub-agent for Mr. Orompton 
Boberts, imder Mr. Hughes?— Yes, 

3550. When did you begin to be concerned in the 
business of the election? — On the morning of the 
Wednesday, the 6th of May, I think it was, before I 
had any communication with Mr. Hughes. 

3551. You mean you set to work on your own account ? 
— I was not aware until the Wednesday morning that 
the content was to commence ; I became aware of it by 
Mr. Crompton Boberts, Mr. Nethersole, and two other 
gentlemen calling upon me in the morning, and saying 
that they were about to commence, and what they were 
to do. I said the flrst thing to be done was to canyass 
the place, and I suggested that Mr. Boberts should be 
taken round the town to call upon people, and in the 
meantime I would get some people together of the com- 
mittee, and haye canyaesing books prepared. I was 
also told by one of the gentlemen who came with Mr. 
Boberts, that seyeral public-houses had been hired as 
committee rooms. I belieye Mr. Boberts was taken 
round the town and introduced to those gentlemen who 
were most likely to be his principal supporters, and later 
during the day, I had the canyass books prepared so far 
as I could, and in the eyening I had a committee meet- 
ing, and arranged that names should be taken by different 
members to canyassers. After the meeting was oyer, 
I think it was between 11 and 12 at night, Mr. Hughes 
appeared upon the scene. I had gone home, and I had 
a message to say that Mr. Hughes had driyen oyer from 
Deal to see me. I went down to the committee room, 
and he told me he had been engaged to conduct the 
election for Mr. Crompton Boberts, and enquired if I 
would take the Sandwich district for him. I told him 
I had no objection to do so, but Igaye him to understand 
that what I did in Sandwich would simply be legitimate. 
I told him what I should do, and if there was anything 
to be done beyond the legitimate expenses of the election 
I should decline to do it, and he told me then he should 
not ask me to do anything else — that if anything else 
was done I should not be called upon to be mixed up 
in it. I may say I had neyer, in any shape or way, had 
anything to do with Sandwich politics. I was utterly 
ignorant of the way elections were conducted there, but 
horn what I heard I was afraid in such a contest there 
might be illegal practices, %nd I thought it best to tell 
liim at once I did not wicQi to haye anything to do with 
them. I may say at that time I told him I Imew nothing 
of these public-nouses haying to be hired. I belieyed a 
brewer in Sandwich had caused some houses to be taken, 
and it seemed to be the custom, from what I heard 
afterwards, for these houses to be taken as committee 
rooms and houses for bill-posting. I spoke to Mr. Hughes 
about them and told him these houses had been taken, 
tiiat I knew nothing at all about them and neyer did 
such a thing, and asked him what he proposed to do. 
He said he had had a great many years' experience as an 
election agent, and were was not the slightest doubt 
whateyer about the legality of the hiring of the houses, 



and that it was a perfectly safe and proper thing to do, 
and you oould haye them for committeid rooms if you 
required them and posting bills, that seemed to be the 
most legitimate use, and he said he would take the full 
responsibility. I understood I diould be perfectly safe 
in paying for them, and it was on that understanoing I 
did pay for them. He asked me whether it was not wise 
to pay at once, and I said the best thing would be to 
pay their bills and done with it, so that in the eyent 
of opposition coming there, and most probably there 
would be opposition, if they agreed to let the houses to 
us for that purpose and the c^er side went and offered 
them more they might possibly break their agreements, 
but if they were paid for and the receipt taken they 
could not afterwards get out of their contract. He then 
handed oyer 502. for me to pay them. I had not at that 
time any knowledge of what me amount to be paid for 
the hire of committee rooms would be. I did not think 
myself they would be so much ad 52. I think I paid 
some myself and I remember in paying them I expressly 
stated tnat the great object was to haye a good display 
of bills, and I found then that in hiring the nouses some 
gentleman who had hired them had fixed the sum <d 52. 
as the price to be paid, expecting the election would 
last about a month. Haying found that arrangement, 
and haying paid one 52., I&ought it was unwise not 
to pay the others the same. They were all equally 
adyantageous for the purposes ihey were paid for, and 
that is now the 52. came about, with the exception of 
one central committee room for which I paid 102., it was 
a yery moderate payment. 

3552. The number you engaged in all was 17 P — 18 
according to the amended account. 

3553. And the central roomP — ^Yes; it is in the 
amended one, I sent the draft account After the 
petition, on looking through the receipts, I found I had 
cheated myself out of one ; I had paid 52. more than I 
really charged for. 

3554. Eighteen and one central committee roomP — 
Yes ; some of those were engaged afterwards, they were 
not all engaged in that way, but some were engaged, 
and I may haye known of them, but I did not personally 
engage any. As it was thought it would be adyantageous 
to engage them they were engaged and paid for at once. 
They were engaged at all the good points of the town. 

3555. Just look at that list and see whether that is a 
list of the 19 (hcmding same to the witness) ? — ^That appears 
to be the list. These red marks at the side relate to the 
days at which we had meetings at them. 

3556. I was going to ask you thatP — ^I may say this 
with reference to some of them, for instance, if you go 
into Sandwich from the railway station there are three 
houses situate at the comers of streets, and but for these 
public-houses you would not be able to see a single 
Gonseryatiye bill from one end of the town to the 
other. 

3557. Is that a list of the eight houses where you had 
meeting, and the dates at which the meetings were held 
(hcmding the same to ihe toitness) ? I think there are only 
eight houses, the ** Fleur de lis " is put down twice ? — 
Yes, the " Fleur de lis " was the central coaimittee room. 
I would not say they were the only houses. It does not 



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SANDWICH. ELECTION COMMISSION; 



F, S. C/oke. profess to be an aeonrafce listi This book, so far as I 

recollect, was nsed by the messengers in informing the 

8 Oct. 1880. members of the committee — between 30 and 40 gentlemen 

— altogether — where ttie meetings would be, and this was 

a note for the chief messenger to inform himself where 
the next meeting wonld be, so that he oonld send round 
to them. 

3558. Then I shonld think it is tolerably accurate P— 
Yes, tolerably accurate. 

3559. It is the list on which you actually worked? — 
Yes, I beHeve it is. I did not prepare this, but I believe 
it is the case. 

3560. So you had meetings at eight of the houses out 
of the 18 ?— Yes, the election I may say came off very 
much quicker than we expected. We had no idesk, the 
contest would come off so soon. 

3561. Was anything at all done with the other houses, 
what use was made of them, if any? — Only that we had 
the bills there, and took care the windows were filled 
with our bills, and but for those houses I do not think 
you would be able to find any place close by — ^no places 
where you could post bills. In other towns jou have 
got hoardings for a good display of electioneering 
Bterature, but there is none in Sandwich. You might 
go through the whole of the streets and find no sign 
that an election was going on, but for the bills in the 
public-house windows. 

3562. Did not you put bills in shop windows P — ^Not 
many. I do not think there were many shops. My 
impression is the majority of them would be against us 
and would not put bills in. 

3563. And as regards private houses of the poorer 
claas, do not you put bills upon them ?— We never have ; 
I do not think it has ever been done ; I never heard of 
it being done. 

3564. Not in the windows of them ? — No, not in the 
windows of them. Some of the poorer class of houses 
have had bills stuck against the house as well as in the 
windows. 

3565. That is what I mean? — Outside the public- 
houses I mean. 

3566. You are putting it in this way that it was 
necessary to take these public-houses, in order to have a 
place to display your bills, but surely you could have 
displayed the buls in other houses than public-houses ? — 
No, I should not think there were six places in Sandwich 
where our bills were displayed, certainly not on houses. 
That is really the oidy reason I had for thinking 
Mr. Hughes was right in saying it was no illegal 
payment. It seemed to me an extravagant wav of 
working, but he assured me there was not the slightest 
illegality in it. 

3567. Do you live at Sandwich P — Yes. 

3568. Then you know the place well ?— Yes. 

3569. You have lived there a good many years, I sup- 
pose ? — No, I have I only been there a few years ; four 
or five years, possibly. I have never been there at an 
election before. 

3570. Your real idea then is that there was some use 
in these public-houses, in order to put the bills upon 
them? — Undoubtedly, I thought, and think still, that 
for the purpose for which they were ostensibly hired 
they were worth the money. I shoidd not do it under 
the same circumstances again, but I thought at the time 
that really they were worth the value they were paid, 
and I still think so. In fact, I might say this ; if I had 
been asked at the time of the petition if aU these land- 
lords had votes I should have said Yes. I had no reason 
to believe one way or the other, but I thought they had, 
but on going through them since I foimd four of tiiem 
had no votes, and a fifth did not vote. He was angry at 
having let his house, and said he had lost more by 
letting his house than if he had not let it, and he did not 
vote at aU, and in many cases after the houses had been 
paid for I went on canvassing the landlords themselves, 
not assuming in any way that in paying for these houses 
we got ttie landlords votes. 

3571. Did you select these houses ? — I did not. 

3572. Who made out this list? — That was made out 
after they were hired. 

3473. Who selected which houses should be hired? 
— ^That I can hardly say. I believe the first that 
were hired were houses in Sandwich belonging to 
Mr. Matthews at Walmcr. I believe Mr. Morley, his 
clerk, hired them. I believe Mr. Baxter at Sandwich 
caused his houses to be hired. They secured them at 
once to prevent the other side getting them. Then, I 
believe, a day or two afterwards, as the contest went on, 



there was a man at the ** Star Inn," a downright 
liberal, and a man with no vote as it turned out, and 
it was thought desirable to have his house, and it was 
taken, so that no blue bills could be shown there. We 
got them in that way. It was thought desirable to get 
them, and they were worth the money to show bills. 
There may be one or two instances in which there was, 
perhaps, the same reason, but in no case tiiat I am 
aware of was a payment made, except for tiiat purpose, 
or was any suggestion made of any other consideration 
than that appearing. 

3574. The Liberals had about the same number of 
public-houses? — I don't know what they have. 

3576. In Sandwich I mean ? — I don't know how many 
they had. 

3576. Where did they put their bills up P — They were 
in public-house windows. 

3577. Did they put bills in private houses or else- 
where than in public-houses p — I think not ; I never 
observed them. Of course there are a few places where 
biUs are put, bill-posting places, but very few. 

3578. I see in this book, next to the list of the four, 
there is a list of several people. Is that a list of the 
committee P — That is merely a list of tiie persons who 
attended. There was no formal committee ever formed 
or chairman appointed, but these gentlemen were called 
hurriedly together, and that was a list for the mes- 
sengers ; they were to take notice to their places where 
the next meeting would be. Most of them used to 
attend and possibly bring one or two with them. 

3579. The Liberals had only seven houses in Sand- 
wich?— Very likely; there was no opposition for the 
first week. These were all hired long before there was 
any opposition. 

3580. If the Liberals thought it necessary to have 
only seven, do you still think it was necessary for you 
to have 18 ? — I don't think it was absolutely necessary, 
and I don't say it was absolutely wise, but I say I paid 
for them at the request of Mr. Hughes who would rather 
have taken the whole lot. The difficultly was in taking 
them, not in getting them. 

3581. Looking at the matter now do you think it was 
any real good taking those public-houses ?— That would 
depend on the question whether it was any good having 
a display of bills at all. If it was any good having a 
display of bills then I say it was. 

3582. So that to your mind the pubUo-houses were 
taken for the disphiy of bills P— Yes, it seems to me the 
only justification for them. I may say this that with 
regard to those I paid, that I impressed upon them 
it was for that chiefiy, we specified for them to be 
well displayed. Those bills cialling them committee- 
rooms were printed long before ; I had nothing to do 
with it. They were sent over from Deal, and I had no 
hand in naming them committee-rooms. The receipt I 
took for them was written out by Mr. Hughes' clerk on 
the ni^t he saw me ; and you will find, with regard to 
the sums I paid, that some of the first receipts I took 
were written with the sums left blank. I intended to 
make arrangements according to what I considered the 
value and the purpose for which they were required, 
only afterwards, on learning one or two had been 
engaged with for 5Z. for the election, I paid them at the 
same rate. 

3583. You did not make a bargain with any of the 
houses ? — No. 

3584. You found bl. had been paid for some, and so 
you paid 5/. for all ? — I did. 

3585. And this is the list, I may take it, of the gentle- 
men who interested themselves at Sandwich P— I think 
you may. 

3586. Then the central committee-room was the 
" Fleur-de-lis P "—Yes. 

3587. Did you make any arrangement with them to 
pay them lOZ. ? — Yes ; I pa^ them in the presence of 
Mr. Hughes the same night. I called him in and asked 
him what he wanted for the election ; he said ** 101. ; " I 
thought it a very moderate sum, and I paid him then 
and there. 

3588. I see there is a charge here, J. Daniels, for com- 
mittee room on the day of the election ; was that another 
committee room besides the one you took of him before ? 
—It occurred in this way ; on the day of the election I was 
anxious, if possible, to have a room where the actual 
work was done apart from a public-house, and he having 
a room which he used as a seed shop, adjoining the "New 
** Inn," which was also one of the committee-rooms, we 
engaged it, and he had to turn out the whole of the stands 
and trade apparatus, and fit it up as a room for the day 



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of election, so as to be quite away from the publio-house, 
that was for a special purpose. 

3589. Who is J. Daniels P— He is the landlord of the 
" New Inn." In that case, where the oommittee-room 
was hired, it also included the hiring of a large room fit 
for a public meeting, and a meeting was actually adver- 
tised to be held there, but there was some fear afterwards 
as to the safety oi the room, and instead of using it we 
had the forms and other things taken out of the room, 
and removed to the market-room of the ** Fleur-de-Lis," 
"wiiioh was also a large room for a public meeting, and 
held a meeting there ; but, of course, we dismantled the 
room entirely. 

3590. Do you mean that besides the rooms at the 18 
pubho-houses and several committee-rooms you wanted 
another committee-room for the day of election ? — ^Yes, 
at the central committee-room at the ** Fleur-do-Lis ;" 
you had to pass through the bar ; it was somewhat diffi- 
cult to get at, and I thought ii would be far better it 
should be a separate room, altogether distinct for the 
day of election, to prevent any question about supplying 
dnnk. 

3591. Did you say that Daniels is the landlord of the 
" New Inn " ? — Yes ; iMs a large house, and this room 
is separated from the rest of the house, the " New Inn," 
and there is a separate door leading into it from the 
street, and it is altogether distinct 

3592. Was the **New Inn" one of the 18 public- 
houses ? — Yes. 

3593. So he got his 5Z. like the others ? — Yes, it was a 
very large public-house. 

3594. And he charged you another 21, for the one 
room on the election day ? — Yes. He had to turn out 
the room and put himself to great inconvenience. It 
was fitted up as a seed shop, and the whole of the things 
had to be taken out. 

3595. Then I see "H. Cogger, additional charge," 
who is that ? — ^He was the landlord of the central com- 
mittee-rooms. We used his room a good deal, as many 
as 200 or 300 people meeting in the market room, and we 
put them to such inconvenience and expense in making 
straight and putting the place right that he asked me if 
he thought he was not fairly entitled to some extra 
charge, and I said I thought he fairly was, knowing the 
manner in which his place had been used ; it was a large 
room, capable of holding 200 people. 

3596. And that was added on was it ? — Yes, and there- 
fore you may take his bill altogether to have been 
12Z, 2«. Id. 

3597. I see there is a charge of 221, for refreshments 
for the clerks and messengers; and, then, "Perkins, 
" wine merchant, 11. 17«., Cogger, * Fleur-de-Lis,' 
•* 5Z.. 2*. 2d. ; the *Bell and Anchor,' 41. ; Hooker, 8^., 
" Daniels, of the * New Inn,' 8L, andBushell, SI. 5«. 6d."; 
have all tiiose bills been paid ? — Not aU of them ; the 
bill of Daniels, about which there can be no question, 
has been paid ; that was for refreshments chiefly on the 
day of the polling. The bill of Cogger has not been paid, 
for the simple reason that he has left Sandwich. There 
is no reason why it should not bo paid, and it will be 
paid. 

3598. Did you give any order for these refreshments 
being supplied ? — I did for Daniels, because I took par- 
ticular care about it. In the afternoon I told him he was 
to supply nothing except on a written order ; the people 
were getting excited ; he came in to know whether he 
should supply anything, and I said, "Supply nothing 
" without a written order from me," and I gave them 
tickets. 

3599. That was on the day of the election ? — Yes. I 
am not so certain about the "Bell and Anchor." The 
first part of Bushell's bill, 11. 28., and something I told 
liim I would pay. That was supplied at the meeting, 
and I told hi'm afterwards he had no 1 asiness to supply 
it without the people paying for it ; that it was contrary 
to orders altogether, but that, as he done it in ignorance, 
I would pay it ; but as to the rest, I have not paid it. 
In fact I have not seen him since. 

3600. All these are for refreshments on the day of the 
election ? — Except the " Bell and Anchor." I judge so 
from the dates. I want to inquire about that. I do not 
think that is on the day. I gave no directions, and there 
was nothing incurred by my authority there. 

8601. Did you order any refreshments to be supplied 
to anybody before the day of the election ? — No, except 
one or two who came in to the central committee-room 
from Deal, and so on. 

3602. You gave no order to any public-houses, I 
mean, or aDything of that sort? — No. I have since 



hemrd that th^ was treating, but I have no personal 
knowledge of it. 

3603. You say you believe there was treating, by that 
you mean treating on the Conservative side? — I 
believe so. 

3604. Do you know by whom it was ordered ? — ^I cannot 
say, but it will come at any rate before you; one of 
those who will come before you will be able to tell 
you, but I cannot say absolutely. 

3605. Do you know at what houses treating took 
place P — I have not the slightest idea at what houses, 
or what amount. 

3606. When you say you believe there was treating, 
what was your reason for saying that? — I have heard 
since that there was. 

3607. ,0f course a thing of that kind must connect 
itself wi£h the name either of the house where it took 
place, or with the person by whom it was ordered P — 
I think it was merely in general conversation with 
various persons I heard it. I think one person who 
told me about it was Mr. Hughes, of Sandwich, who will 
be before yon. Probably if any one did know he would 
know it. 

3608. Mr. Hughes, of Sandwich, not Mr. Edwin 
Hughes? — Quite so; or Mr. Hooper, he might know. 
Perhaps I should have said Mr. Hooper rather thiui 
Mr. Hughes. 

3609. Then you cannot tell me anv houses at which 
treating took place? — No, I never heard any houses 
mentioned. 

3610. Did you see any treating taking place on the 
day of the election ; did you see any people going into 
public-houses on the day of the election ? — No, I was 
engaged entirely in the committee room. 

3611. All day P — ^Yes. I had no opportunity of seeing. 
There is one thing I want to say, one bill, I take it, is 
for treating, which I received a week or two ago, after 
the hearing of the petition. It was not sent in to me, 
but to Mr. Baker, and he handed it to me. It was 
made out to him. It seems that persons had gone there 
stating that he had sent them, but he says he has no 
knowledge of it, and never sent anybody. 

3612. Is that Mr. Charles Baker ?— No, Mr. Prank 
Baker. He told me when he gave it me that he told the 
person it certainly was not to be paid, and he had not 
authorised it or given any directions whatever. There 
it is {hamdvng the smne to the Cormnisaionera). I did not 
find it when I sent the papers over. It is the only bill 
I received of any sort with the exception of those I 
sent. 

3613. Who is S. Oakley?— I think he is at the 
"King's Head." 

3614. Is it another bill }rou have in your hand P — No, 
it is the envelope in which it came. 

3615. With the exception of that, have you any know- 
ledge more than you have told us of of any treating 
talnng place on me Conservative side? — ^Not of any 
treatmg. 

3616. I see there is a charge for the hire of carriages ; 
were those carriages hired by your order? — Yes. 
Some of these were before the election. We had 
several times to come down to Deal, and could not come 
down by train very well. 

3617. The charge is 201. 68. 6{i.?— Yes; they are 
moderate charges. 

3618. I suppose that 20^. 6«. 6d. was found quite 
sufficient for the carriages at Sandwich? — Oh yes, 
amply sufficient. That included as I tell you convey- 
ances to Deal. I had to come to Deal in the afternoon 
of the polling day, and I came down in the evening to 
a public meeting in the same town once or twice in 
addition. I think his bill was very moderate, but it was 
certainly amply sufficient. 

3619. Now there is a longish list of people who have 
been paid for various services ; three were paid as 
watchers, were those people engaged by jou? — They 
were engaged by Mr. Hughes, but they were engaged 
by my authority. Mr. Hughes saw me and said he had 
heard there was a conspiracnr to tear down all the flags 
and things of that kind, and said these tiiree men were 
willing to be about all night for two or three nights for 
11. or 308. if they actually caught anybody doing 
damage, and I told him he might engage uem for tiiat, 
and he engaged them. 

3620. And they did not catch anybody, I auppoae ?— - 
No. 

3621. And they were paid SI. P— Yes. 



F. S. Clohe. 
8 Oct. 1880. 



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F. S. Cloke. 3622. Were they voters ?~I do not know. Their 

names are signed to the receipts, the vouchers for that 

8 Oct 1880. 32. I know personally very httle about the voters in 
Sandwich. 

3623. Do you know if the receipts are among the list 
of vouchers P — Yes, you will find them on the blue 
forms probably. 

3624. Were there three of them?~Yes; there is 
another man as well. 

3625. Is that Dra^n P~Yes, that is another man I 
omitted in sending in the account. I sent in a man 
named Clarke and omitted Drayson. Dra3rson was 
employed and Clarke was not. Drayson was watching 
to see what he cotild find out on the other side, and 
was employed about nine days. I found that was right, 
so I paid mm 32. 

3626. Was he paid on the principle of having a 
larger sum if he found out anything? — No, he was 
not. 

3627. Did he find out anything, do you know? — ^I 
think not. Mr. Hooper will know really more about him 
than I do ; he told me he had earned his money fairly. 

2628. Mr. Drayson lis a voter, I suppose ? — ^I believe 
he is ; indeed, it was [almost impossible to employ any- 
body except lads, who were not voters, or connected m 
some way with voters. 

8629. You paid him?— Yes. 

8680. Did you appoint him P — I believe I did tell him ; 
he saw me, and said, he thought there would be bribery 
going on, and I told him, somewhat early, when the 
rumours began to get about, and before Sir Julian came 
down, I believe, that he was to look about, and find out 
what he could, and I would pay him as a messenger 
really. 

8631. What is Drayson?-— A ropemaker or a mat- 
maker or something of that kind. 

3632. Has he ^t any business which he conducted P 
— He works for himself, but I do not think he has any 
shop, or anything of that kind. 

3633. If he had any business at all, how could he 
have devoted his time to watching P— I do not think he 
had much business, he is a poor man. 

3634. A poor man, is he ?— Well, when I say a poor 
man, I mean he is a respectable man, a man to whom I 
should not think the amount paid was at all excessive, 
and a man who might be fairly expected to earn his 
money. If you see him I think you will say, it was not 
a very extravagant sum to pay him. 

3635. You were paying 3Z. to the man to watch, I sup- 
pose ; he made no report to you, did he p — I refused to 
pay him at first, after the election, and then I saw 
Mr. Hooper. He said Mr. Hooper knew he had worked 
hard, and I asked Mr. Hooper about it and he said, 
'* Certainly he had,'' and he understood that I had en- 
gaged .him, and he worked hard, and under those cir- 
cumstances I paid him. I did not pay him, you see, 
until a long tune after the election. You will see the 
precise date of the receipt when I paid him. 

3636. Oddly enough it is not dated P — ^Is it not ; my 
impression is it was not paid till after the petition. 

3637. I beg your pardon, it is written in the body of 
the receipt, the 11th of September? — I know it was 
quite late. The man bothered me ever so many times, 
and it was onl^ when I ascertained he had worked, 
and had been misled in thiukiTig that I had engaged him 
to work (I did say something about it, but I had for- 
gotten to put his name down) that I did pay him later 
on. You will find in the account I sent, I have inserted 
a man mamed Clarke for 32. That is how I came to pay 
him, U[id I found afterwards he was not employed at 
all, and Uiat this man was not paid. 

3638. Did you, on the last day of the election, see this 
man Drayson P— It would be about 10 days before the 
election ; he would be working up to the time of the 
election. 

3639. Did you see him every day P— I know I saw him 
sevend times ; I did not see him every day, for I was not 
there every day myself. 

3640. Did he teU you what he had been doing, or make 
any report to you ? — He did not, and that is ti^e reason 
I never thought of him, or thought of including him in 
the account, and I refused several times to pay him, but 
I found, as I told you, from Mr. Hooper that the man 
had been looking about, and he understood I had em- 
ployed him, and that he thought it was very hard he was 
not paid, and, having this money in hand, at last I said, 
''Well there seems to be a misunderstanding, you 
** thought you were employed, and yon did something, 



** and although I do not know what it was, I will pay 
'' you," and so it came to be paid later on, it was a long 
time, reaUy, I protested, and would not pay. I had 
forgotten the circumstance. 

3641. Then here are three other watchers, Collins, 
Wyatt, and Wyboume ; those three persons are, I sup- 
pose, are all voters P — I connot say. 

3642. You do not know P— No. 

3643. You engaged them, did you not P— I authorised 
Mr. Hughes to engage them. He told me he had lost 
one close to his own house, and he heard there was a 
conspiracy to take down other fiags, and he asked me if 
he had better not employ three other watchers, and I 
said, "Very well." 

3644. Then follows some charges for committee clerks, 
you had two committee clerks at four guineas p — ^Yes. 

3645. And two personating agents ? — ^Yes. 

3646. And then you had a messenger at 32. 10«., and a 
check clerk at 42., and three other check clerks at 32. 
each P — They were messengers and check clerks, that is 
to say, they were employed all the election as messengers, 
and on the day of the polling as check clerks. It is 
necessary in taking the votes to have some one who can 
write at the doors, and several others just about who 
know the people going in. It has been the custom to 
pay them, at all tiie elections I have had anything to do 
with, a guinea upon the day of the dection, and they 
were employed for some considerable time as messengers. 
I mean those men who had three guineas. 

3647. Are most of them voters P I suppose they are P 
— I could not tell you as to the check clerks, or per- 
sonating agents. It is impossible to get men qualified 
for the office, unless they are voters. If they have been 
in Sandwich long enough to be of Uie slightest use, they 
must be on the register. Our committee-room clerks 
were not voters, and one or two of our check deriu were 
not voters. Were I could get a non-voter I gave him 
the preference, but in the majority of cases I was obliged 
to take voters. 

2648. You did not tell them they were not to vote p — 
I did not. 

3649. I do not know whether you know this, which 
some witness has already told us about. You may not 
know it perhaps, but do you know whether at the 
elections previous to this, it has been the custom to pair 
off the persons employed ?— I have heard since it was ; 
but on this occasion both sides voted. I was told the 
other evening that it had been the custom previously to 
pair off, and be very careful about it. 

3650. Now I see Mr. R A Cox gets 37, lOs, as a 
messenger, and another 12. afterwards P— 12. which is 
down was reallv paid before. That 32. 10«. was the final 
settlement of this account. He was the chief messenger 
really, and during the election I paid him two sums of 
10^. on account, that is how his name appears twice. 

3651. This is the list of messengers for whom 422. 7«. 
was paid?— Yes; they were chiefly boys distributing 
bills. 

3652. Were those messengers engaged by you P — ^No, I 
do not think they were engaged by me. I do not think 
I engaged any messengers. 

3653. Who determined who they should be? Who 
fixed on them P— I think they were fixed on by the 
members of the committee from time tq time. Their 
names were sent in, and so forth, and I was told for 
what they were employed. I believe as matter of fact, 
they mainly were employed by the committee. One or 
two of them are not paid ; you see their names are there, 
with nothing against them. 

3654. There are 48 you seep— Yes. The great difficulty 
was not to have double the number. 

3655. Everybody wanted to be a messenger, I believe P 
— Yes ; and I believe in former elections there have been 
more. There was a great deal at this election more than 
usual of election literature to be sent about. We had 
meetings at Deal, and bills came over in the morning for 
a meeting that evening, which had to be sent out to 
nearly every elector. 

3656. It was the case, I suppose, that there was in 
this election a great deal of election literature going 
about ? — Yes ; which gave an excuse for employing mafty 
more. 

3657. I suppose you circulated speeches? — Yes; 
everything calculated to educate the people. 

3658. I see these people are paid very different sum& 
Some are only paid 10«., and some are paid as much as 
12. 10«. ? — They are paid at the rate of 2». 6d. a day. 
Those paid 12. 10^. had been engaged twelve days, and 



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MINUTES Olj' EVIDENCE, 



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those paid 10$. wonld haye been engaged but fonr 
dajs. 

3659. Are most of these messengers voters P— Do you 
mean tiie long list ? 

3660. Yesp— I believe they are alllads. 

3661. I suppose then they are sons of voters, mostly P 
— ^In some cases I know they were not In some oases 
they were sons of widows with no relatives ; but in 
the majority of cases they were neeessar^y the sons of 
voters. 

3662. Then there is " printing and stationery," which 
does not strike me as excessive, I must say. It strikes 
you now, does it not, it is a little large that number of 
messengers ; 49 messengers to 500 voters P — No doubt 
they were not absolutely necessary. For instance, some 
boys were employed for three or four days only, and 
went on their business then. They were not sdl em- 
ployed the whole time. 

8663. Then "cards and telegrams," and then *' tickets 
" for passengers by special tram, " what does that mean P 
— ^I was asked by Mr. Hughes to get a special train to 
take people down to Deal for a public meeting. If you 
came to Deal you could not get back to Sandwich later 
than 9.30. It was desirable to have a train about 10.30 
or 11, to bring them back, instead of having carriages to 
take them down and bring them back, and it was far 
cheaper to send them down by train. Then there was 
31. charged for the special tram, and then the tickets. 
You wiU find there are two. There is one special train 
charged at 3Z., and in the draft account I sent the secre- 
tary afterwards, tiiere is an additional 3Z., which I had 
previously omitted. I asked the station-master at Sand- 
wich for it, and he told me it had been paid at Deal, and 
after I sent the account in, he sent the account, and it 
had not been paid. 

3664. There is *< Special train to Deal again ;" is that 
the same thing ? — Yes. You will find the two sets of 
tickets and one special train, and on turning to the 
draft account I sent to the secretaiy you will find the 
second special train, so that you can una two sums of 3^, 
and two sums for tii^ets. One was for the meeting when 
Lord George Hamilton came down. 

3665. Then " Kailwajr fare and refreshments for oom- 
** mittee and clerks going to Deal." That is a small 
sum. I suppose that was necessary ? — Yes. We were 
obliged to be in communication now and then. I saw 
vejy little indeed of Mr. Hughes during tiie contest. 

3666. Then there were some bills incurred by indi- 
vidual members of the committee for colours, flags, &c 
Does that mean the committee wore rosettes or colours 
themselves p — ^And for the town. I hod a great dislike 
to going into them, and I got pitched into very much 
for not having ordered more flags and rosettes them there 
were. I told the members of the committee if they 
wanted any thay had better take the responsibility on 
themselves, and order them ; I would not. Mr. Hughes 
came over and complained of the small number I had, 
and promised to send me a lot over from Deal. I said 
I h^ :*o objection to it, but would not order them. 
Afterwards bills came in, and some were made out to 
the members of the committee who ordered them. I 
sent them on to Mr. Hughes to deal with as he liked, 
and, subsequently, he sent the money, and I paid 
them. 

3667. Yoi^ did not consider them as things absolutely 
necessary? — They were not absolutely necessary. I 
may say this, we put up no flags and got no colours of 
any kind until the opposition commenced and the blue 
flags were flying about. 

3668. The other side b^an flying flags, did they? — 
Yes. I may say, so far as the persons go, three out of 
the five persons who supplied them were supporters of 
our opponents — ^three out of the tradesmen ; one was 
Mrs. Hunter, or at any rate that was the place where the 
central committee room was held; and Mr. Bose and 
Mr. Elgood were both supporters of the Liberals. 

3669. What is Mr. Hathaway— a member of your com- 
mittee ? — ^Yes. 

3670. And Mr. Rigby?— That was for pamting an 
inscription. Those are the only two of them our 
supporters. 

3671. I suppose Mr. Hathaway ordered the flags and 
rosettes from himself for himself? — No. 

3672. Who did then ?— Individual members of the 
committee. 

3673. He was a member of the committee ? — ^Yes, but 
it was not for himself. I ordered some few myself for 
the horses' heads and carriages ; it was the members of 
the oommittee who ordered them. 

Q3334. 



3674. Then there was 31^. for canvassers ; did you F. S. Cioke, 

engage them ;--Well, they were all working during the < 

election, I believe; and after the election I told 8 Oct 1880. 

Mr. Baker and one or two others that I was going to 

send in the account and asked whether there was any 

one they thought should be remunerated for extra 
services they had rendered, and it was thought these 
men whose names appeared there, it was only fair they 
should have a present ; they had worked very hard ^d 
it was only reasonable and fair to them to make them a 
present. I never said anything to them, but I included 
the names in the account. I sent to Mr. Hughes and 
told him I thought the amount set opposite their names 
was fair end reasonable and the men had fairly earned 
the money. He made no objection to it and sent the 
money. When I found the petition was likely to be 
heard I thought it best to wait before paying tnem. I 
never spoke to them about it, with the exception of one. 
I flnd I made a mistake when I was examined on the 
petition. I stated I paid none, but I find I paid 
Mr. Slaughter. The receipt will show when I paid it, 
and the receipts will show when I paid the others. In 
the other cases, until their names were read out in 
Court at the hearing of the petition, those men did not 
know they were to be paid anything at alL I had not 
promised them anythmg nor do I thinlr anybody else 
did. 

3675. Before the election had any bargain been made 
with them what they were to receive ? — I do not ^liiT^lr 
they had the slightest idea what they were to receive. 

3676. There is considerable difference in the price 
paid to them ; Brett and Bushell got 10^. each ? — They 
were our prominent hard workers. 

3677. Who did you say fixed the amoimts opposite 
their names P — I put them opposite their names, but it 
was in conversation with members of the committee who 
knew what it was fair to ofifer them ; botii of those are 
master tradesmen, I believe. 

3678. What is Brett ?— He is a master bricklayer and 
Bushell is a leather-cutter. I think those amounts are 
altogether original ; at any rate, there was no bargain 
made with them and the payments were not made in 
pursuance of any previous agreement. There is one of 
them not paid yet; Jenkins is his name; he has not 
been for his money and I have not paid him. I sent a 
message to him, but he has not been in yet. The others 
I paid, you will find, comparatively recently. 

3679. I see there is a bill paid on account of Baron de 
Worms. Mr. Parker says there was no promise made, 
either by you or anybodyelse, that that bfll of Baron de 
Worms should be paid P — I don't think so. I don't think 
Parker has been examined upon it at all. 

3680. What is the histonr of that daim P— When the 
contest commenced I heard of this bill ; it was thought 
a very reasonable one, and Mr. Parker, I believe, was a 
very respectable man, and the bill was undoubtedly due, 
and he ought to have been paid by somebody ; but early 
in the contest I said it could not possibly be paid. I had 
nothing to do with that election and I could not pay it ; 
later on it was paid. The date when it was paid will 
show the time, but I paid it on the same day that 
Mr. Edwin Hughes brought the bill to me and said it 
should be paid. I expressed much surprise that he 
should pay it, and he said, ** I am agent fo* Baron de 
" Worms, and conducted Greenwich election for him, 

** and I will pay it as his agent." I suppose I looked * 
possibly rather astonished at his paying Baron de Worms* 
bill for 1868 ; and he then went on to say that the 
accounts between them had not been closed, and he 
certainly intended to charge it to Baron de Worms* 
account. Under those circumstances he asked me to 
pa^ it, and I paid it, and said it was purely by the 
accident of Mr. Hughes being the agent of Baron de 
Worms that he got his money ; that it was not paid by 
Mr. Croidpton Eoberts, he must understand ; but was 
paid by the agent of Baron de Worms. 

3681. What is Mr. Parker p— The landlord of the 
** Bed Lion." He seemed io think it a great hardship 
on him, as a great portion of this bill was incurred by ^ 
order of Baron de Worms* own brother. 

3682. It was a bill for refreshments I suppose P — I 
don't know what it was for, I believe it was. I believe 
there was no doubt at all about the bUl really being 
owing, and at the express request and direction of 
Mr. Hughes, I paid it with the full statement of his, 
certainly, that he should charge it to the accoimt of 
Baron de Worms. 

3683. You received first and last 260Z. P—Yes. 

3684. Is that ^11 that you received P— -That is all I 
received except subsequently I received the balance. I 



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F, S. Cloke. 



8 Oct. 18S0. 



sent the draft aooount to the secretary, and the final 
balance of the account I have since received. Mr. Hughes 
came down, it is the only time I have seen him since the 
election, and held a meeting here, in Deal, wrote to me 
that he would pay me the balance of the account, and 
I thought I might as well have the balance and so I 
did. 

3686. What was the amount paid you then P — ^96L, I 
chink, it is 13Z. more than the balance shown there, it is 
in the draft account 

3686. In this aooount there is a balance in your favour ; 
you were not paid in full by 131 Z. 7«. 3d. You told me 
there were certain items not paid afterwards, what sum 
did you receive to make the balance up. There is 
131Z. Is. 3(2. short? — ^I gave the secretary the draft 
account I have no other papers except what I sent 
down. 

3687. 48L Us. I think it wasp— Yes, and then I added 
the things I had previously omitted. 

3688. That balance of S2l. is made up by the sums 
which you told me lust now were disallowed P— I think 
I can tell vou what tney were, they were made up by the 
sums of 22Z. ISs. 9d. refreshments to clerks, messengers, 
&o., 421. 4s. 4d. the biUs for colours, and 171. lis. 6d., 
which to my astonishment Mr. Hughes did not send. I 
made the remark to him that that bill had been paid by 
his special request very early in the contest. I reminded 
him of it in a letter I sent him, a oopy of whichis among 
the papers I sent I think. I subsequently received the 
balance, 952. lbs. M., which would be the final balance. 

3689. Is that all the money you received P — With the 
exception of the fee he sent me for myself. 

3690. Apart from your own fee does that represent 
every sixpence you nave received? — Every penny. I 
never received a farthing of any kind from any source 
otiier thim that an\ount. 

3691. And do the amounte which are here, represent 
all the expenditure that you have made in connexion 
with this election ? — Every penny ; rather more than I 
have had in fact. They represent aU the claims I have 
had of any kind, aU of which are not paid. In this draft 
amount which I sent to Mr. Hughes, I put paid against 
many of the items, and I ticked his account I think in 
some way or the other, and informed him those I had 
ticked had been paid and those unticked had not been 
paid, so as to i^ow him exactly what the position was. 

3692. You knew I suppose about the sending out of 
the voting cards before tne election asking for the vote 
and so on? — They were sent over to be sent out by 
messengers ; they had to be distributed by hand. 

3693. Is this little packet the sort of thing or the 
exact thing that was sent to every voter (ha/nding same 
to the vnUiess)? — They were in envelopes when they 
came over, but the probability is this came in a letter to 
me. I have no doubt that represente exactly what waa 
done. Oh, yes, there is the endorsement, which shows 
it — ^there is my own endorsement. 

3694. You received a letter from Mr. Hughes as 
follows, ''Dear sir. The letters herewith are to be 
" sorted and delivered as soon as possible ; the printers 
*' here have been delaying us. If you find that by 
" stamping them and ^posting they will be delivered 
^* at once do so, but otjierwise do it by reliable hands. 
" The enclosed documents are the enclosures in ti^e 
" letters, and refer to the regatta at 1 and the train at 
** 7*15., &c. to day. The other side oflfer U. 10 minutes 
** after polling. This is official. Yours tuly, Edward 
* * Hughes. " Did Mr. Edward Hughes send you together 
for the purpose of your circulating it the letter asking 
the people to vote for Roberts and the form which they 
were to fill up if they proposed to do so ? — I have no 
doubt whatever that these were altogether; you will 
find if you look at the back of the letter, that I have 
endorsed them as enclosures sent with voting cards. 

8695. So that together with the cards, which showed 
them how they were to vote, with a large cross opposite 
Mr. Bobert*B name, there was sent, was there, a card 
which contained an announcement that there would be 
a regatta, commencing at 1 o'clock, on Whit-Monday, 
and that the pier would be open for the public by a free 
ticket, and that there would bo attractions of various 
kinds, including the presentation of prizes by Mr. 
Grompton Boberts P — ^I have no doubt there was, I can 
only speak from seeing them together, and from the 
endorsement here made, I have not the slightest doubt 
that they were sent toge^er. 

3696. I suppose the electors of Sandwich thought that 
a very kind, thoughtful and generous thing on ^e part 



of Mr. Orompton Boberts? — ^Yes, I believe it .did not 
come ofi", however. 

3697. They would take the will for the deed ; there 
was the wiU there at any rate ? — ^Yes. 

3698. Now I have asked you about what you received 
yourself alone and spent. We know now perfectly weU, 
of course, what took place as regards the distribution of 
money at Sandwich. How far were you cognizant of 
that ? — ^I was cognizant of it towards the latter part of 
the contest, from observations which fell from time to 
time from those engaged in it. I endeavoured, as far 
as possible, to avoid hearing anything, but I coiild not, 
of course, be quite blind to the fact that money was 
being paid or promised. The only thing I could do was 
to keep entirely clear from it, and not be in any way, 
either directly or indirectly, a medium of communication. 
I refused to nave anything to do with it, and any com- 
munications made with people for the purpose of bribery 
were made without my previous knowledge, or the 
slightest arrangement with me. I was not the medium 
of making any arrangements or making the payments, 
and, in fact, I did not know exactly what paymento were 
made, or exactly what was done. I know more now, 
since the Commission opened, than I ever knew before, 
tai I have seen some of those engaged in it, and advised 
them what to do, and sent them down to see Mr. Baggally . 
Until then, really I did not know exactly to what extent 
it had gone. I could not help torming a pretty fair idea, 
of course. 

3699. I daresay you have heard or read the evidence 
that has been given here by Mr. Olds, so you know what 
he refers to, and how far he was concerned, and what 
he did. Now, besides what has been given in evidence 
already as to the distribution of this money through 
Mr. Olds, do you know of any other distribution of 
money ? — No ; Mr. Olds has always been associated in 
my mind with the distribution of money. 

3700. No one else ? — No one else. My impression is, 
from what I have gathered, that he has been really the 
medium by which the money has been distributed. I 
have not heard of anybody else. 

8701. You have not heard of anybody else, except 
Mr. Olds, receiving money for the purpose of distribution 
for bribery ? — No, and I am not aware that he received 
it, except what I have heard. 

8702. You know that as we know it ? — Yes. 

8708. I suppose you do not know, and have no means 
of knowing, m>m wnom this money came which came to 
Mr. Old's hands. Mr. Olds tells us it was a dark gentle- 
man, whose name he did not know. Do you know who 
that person was P — I have not the slightest idea. 

8704. You have never heard the man's name ?— I have 
not; I do not know at all. 

8705. You do not know at all who it was ?— I do not 
know at all ; I have no suspicion. 

3706. Mr. Olds told us that the persons to whom he 
gave the money were Hughes, Qiles, Hooper, Jjock, and 
Bast. Those were the persons he made the medium for 
distributing this money in Sandwich ; do you know 
whetlier there was anyliody else who received money for 
distribution ? — No. If you had asked me, I should not 
have named East. I should have named the other four 
as persons I guessed ha4 money. 

3707. But you did not know of anybody else ? — No, 
but I should say there was nobody else l^ely to have 
any, except they were substitutes really, or got it from 
the others. 

8708. (Mr. HoU.) You have told us what your view 
was and what your objecto were with regsord to the 
paying of the 18 houses ?— Yes. 

3709. You did not take them yourself P— -I did not 
take any of them. I may have authorised, however, one 
or two of them. 

3710. You don't know what the object of taking them, 
or the arrangement made by those who did take them 
was ? — No, I don't, but I know that as to some of tiiose 
that were taken by other people the persons had no 
votes, and I know also with reference to the others that 
I wrote and had them canvassed in the usual way, and 
that I never looked upon the taking of them as securing 
their votes. 

3711. You do not know what arrangement was made 
by anybody who took them, or what their objects were ? 
— ^No, I refused to accept them, until I was assured by 
Mr. Hughes that I was perfectly safe in doing so. 
Those were the first houses. Of course, later on, a few 
were engaged that I had knowledge ol 

3712. (Mr. Jeune.) Do you know whether that Mr. John 
Drayson we were talking about just now who gave you 



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this receipt for SOL , is John Christopher Drayaoii P— No, 
certainly not Mr. John Christopher Drayson is a very 
old gentleman, who has been Major of Sandwich in his 
time, and is one of the magistrates. 

3713. (Mr, EoU.) Qnite a different sort of man?— 
Yes, quite a different sort of man. 

3714. (3fr. Jetme,) He is not I suppose Gteorge Foord 
Drayson P — No, George is, I think, a son of John 
Christopher Drayson. Mr. Hooper can tell you more 
about this John Drayson than I can, I took it fiom 
what he said, and, relying upon what he said, I paid him. 

3715. I should like to ascertain this, because, if so, 
it certainly clears up your list completely. This John 
Drayson, who received this 3Z., was not a voter, as far as 
I can see P — I could not say he was. 

3716. There are three parishes in Sandwich ?— Yes. 

3717. There is John Christopher Drayson and Qeorge 
Foard Drayson, those are the only two Draysons, as far 
as I can see. (After a patise.) Oh ! in St. Peter's 
parish there is John Drayson. He is a voter I see P — 
He lives] somewhere near the market * I don't know 
the place. 

3718. I see he is a voter, * * John Drayson, Sandwich " P 
— ^I could not say positively one way or the other. 

3719. John Christopher Drayson is quite a different 
man P— Yes. 

3720. What canvassing book is that (handing same to the 
vntness). Is this one of your canvassing books that you 
sent out P— This is a book in which the information got 
from time to time was worked up. This book in pencil 
was made out for the personal canvass of Mr. Crompton 
Boberts. They wanted to test the canvass ; so, instead 
of giving KiTTt simply the old book with all the notes of the 
different canvassers in it, I gave him a clean book with 
which h« would go round witii a messenger named Hall, 
who was speciidly devoted to that duty, and he made his 



own entries, and anything fresh worth entering in the other F. S. Cloke. 

book, I entered it, but, if not, I took no notice of it 

8721. Who was sent round with him ; Hall, do you 8 Oct 1880. 

say P— Yes, a man named Hall, who was a messenger, 

and devoted entirely to going round with the candidate. 
He was a man who knew the place thoroughly and 
accompanied him in the whole of his canvass. 

3722. Are those pencil marks in his handwriting P — 
The pencil marks are in Mr. Crompton Boberts' hand- 
writing, I think ; I have no doubt about it. 

(Mr, Jeune,) They look to me like it, too. I dare say 
Mr. Crompton Boberts can explain that book himself. 

3723. (Mr, Boll) Mr. Hughes, Mr. Giles, Mr. 
Hooper, and Mr. Lock were all members of the Conser- 
vative committee at Sandwich, I think?— Mr. Giles, Mr. 
HoOT)er, and Mr. Hughes were, I think ; but I don't 
think Mr. Look was. I think he came very late into it. 

3724. Giles, Hughes, and Hooper were P~Yee. 

3725. And East P-— I don't think he was ; I never saw 
him at the meeting. Of course there would have been 
others present at the meeting, not included in that list 
Mr. Giles is not a voter ; he is not within the borough. 

3726. Hughes was a member, you say P — Yes. 

3727. And Hooper P— Yes. 

372a Was Giles P— I believe he attended, but he was 
not actually in the borough. 

3729. But he was an active man there P — ^Yee ; he lived 
very dose to the borough. 

3730. Were East and Lock active men of the Conser- 
vative party, whether on the committee or notP — I 
believe so. Of course I am not so acijuainted as I 
should have been if I had been engaged in an eleoticm 
previously at Sandwich. 

(Mr Jeiwne,) Your evid^ice is very satisfactory, and 
we are much obliged to you. 



Thomas Jambs Ushsb sworn and examined. 



T, J. Usher , 



3731. (Mr.Holl) You are an auctioneer and surveyor P 
— ^I am. 

3732. And I think you took, to some extent, an active 
part on the Conservative side in the late election P — I 
did. 

3733. You were not in any way, I believe, a paid 
agent P — ^I was not. 

3734. You were a volunteer?— Yes. 

3736. When did you first meet Mr. Boberts— where 
and when as nearly as you can remember P — ^I believe 
Mr. Spoffortii mentioned yesterday that it was in conse- 
quence of a letter he received from me. I have a copy 
of that letter here (lumding same). 

3736. This is the letter you sent P— Yes, this is a copy 
of the letter I sent to Mr. Spofforth. 

3737. I see this is a letter (I need not trouble to read 
it) intimating your impression that there would be a 
vacancy, as Mr. Knatchbull Hugessen would be likely to 
retire, and enquiring whether or not a candidate was 
coming forward in case that contingency occurred P — ^I 
made some memoranda. 

3738. There are some memoranda P— Those are a few 
memoranda I made at the end as to what actually trans- 
pired afterwards. 

3739. Then Mr. Spofforth wrote a reply P— He did, 
and he sent his clerk down. 

3740. Have you Mr. Spofforth's letter P— Yes, I have 
the original here (handing same), 

3741. From this note I should gather that you had had 
some previous communication with Mr. Spofforth, had 
you notP — No, I had had some business transactions 
with him, and I knew his clerk, Mr. Simmons. 

37&. He uses the expression, *' My client still thinks 
of you " P — Yes, I will explain that. In March, at the 
general election, the Conservatives had a meeting, and 
they determined not to fight the contest. Mr. Simmons, 
Mr. Spofforth's derk, came down here and said Mr. 
Spofforth had a cHentwho was willing to come down 
and fight the Conservative cause here if we wished, but 
we were pretty well represented and satisfied, and we 
decided that we would not contest the borough. Then, 
when this other vacancy occurred, recollecting the con- 
versation I had had with Mr. Simmons, I wrote the 
letter to Mr. Spofforth which you have a copy of. 

3743. Then Mr. Simmons came down p — He did. 

3744. And he met some of the Conservatives P — He 
met Dr. Hulke, Mr. William Nethersole, and myself at 
Dr. Hulke's house. 



3745. I may take it that Dr. Hulke, Mr. Nethersole, 
and yourself were what I mayoall the leading members 
of the Conservative party p— We take an interest in the 
Conservative party. 

3746. Can you tell me the names of any other parties 
here who are what I may call the leading men of the 
Conservative party P— Yes, George Denne. Then there 
is Mr. Wise, but he does not take an active part. Most 
of the principal tradesmen who are on the Conservative 
side take a part in it at election time. 

3747. You say most of the principal tradesmen are on 
the Conservative sidep — Who are on tibe Conservative 
side. 

3748. Who are they ; do you remember the names of 
any of them ; Mr. Olds P— Yes. 

3749. Mr. BalphP— Yes. 

3750. What is his Christian name, do you know? 

There are two Balphs. 

3751. Which do you mean is a leading man on the 
Conservative side p — I do not know about a leading man ; 
he takes an active part. J. J. Balph, he is a blacksmith! 

3752. WilliamFrost Spears?— He is a boatman. 
3763. Is he an active man p — Yes. 

3754. George Henry Denne P — ^Yes. 
3756. He is a builder P— Yes. 

3756. J. J. Wise, is tha4i the Mr. Wise that you spoke 
of P— Mr. J. J. Wise is a Conservative, but he does not 
take an active part in Conservative matters. 

3757. James Wise of Middle Deal, what is he ?— He is 
a retired tradesman, I believe. 

3758. He is an active man P— Yes, on this election. 

3759. MyhiU, he is a waterman P— No, he is a pilot. 

3760. Mr. Mackie p— Yes ; he is a pilot. 

3761. Mr. Edward Kynaston P— Yes ; he is a gentieman 
living at Walmer. This was the firs^ election at which 
he, I believe, has been an elector here. 

3762. Mr. Henry Spears, is he an active man ?— Yes. 

3763. Are there any others which you remember at 
this moment who are what one may call active P— There 
are so many that one can scarcely recollect. If I went 
down the list I could point out the names as I came to them. 

3764. Mr. Simmons met, you say, Dr. Hulke, 
Mr. Nethersole, and yourself ?— Yes. 

3765. What then took place P— He simply stated that 
he had come down from Mr. Crompton Boberts, who 
would meet us, if agreeable, the next day, he would come 
on to Deal. He did come the next day, and we met him 

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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



T. J. Uiher. at the Royal Hotel, I think it was, at half past 12. 

Mr, William Nethersole had an engagement that day, he 

8 Oct 1880. ; cotdd not meet him, so that Dr. Hulke and myself saw 
him. 

3766. Dr. Hulke and yourself met Mr. Crompton 
Roberts at the Royal Hotel P— Yes. 

3767. At that time was any arrangement made between 
Mr. Crompton Roberts, Dr. Hulke, and yourself as to 
what Btei)s should be taken ?— No, nothing at all. He 
simply came down to offer himself as a candidate in the 
Ck)n8eryatiye cause. I then arranged that same evening 
to have a meeting at . the Royal Hotel of some few 
fceutlemen from Sajttdwich, some few from Walmer and 
Deal, to decide as to who we shotdd adopt as a candidate, 
as we had two other gentlemen who iiad also offered 
themselves. We had tiie meeting at the Royal Hotel 
that evening, but the meeting did not oome to anv final 
decision. There was an officer in the Royal Marines 
who I believe was contesting Gravesend, he offered 
himself, and we were hesitating between Mr. Orompton 
Roberts and this gentleman. Whilst we had the meeting 
this officer of the Royal Marines sent in his card to 
Dr. Hulke, and he came in, so we had Mr. Crompton 
Roberts and him both there that evening, but we came 
to no decision. 

3768. When did you oome to a decision P— On the 4th 
of May, I think it was, when we saw that Mr. Knatch- 
bull Hugessen had been raised to the peerage, and that 
Sir John Adye was going to fill his place ; the papers 
said that it was arranged that Sir John Adye would take 
his place, but as we were not parties to the arrangement 
we meant to upset it. 

3769. Whi^ arrangements did you makep — ^I imme- 
diately telegraphed to Mr. Crompton Roberts in 
Mr. Nethersole's name — Mr. Nethersole was awav. I 
saw Dr. Hulke first, and I telegraphed to Mr. Roberts 
that I thought he had better come down at once. We 
had a meeting that evening, several gentlemen came 
from Sandwich and Walmer, and we decided to nominate 
Mr. Crompton Roberts at the election. Mr. Crompton 
Roberts arrived whilst we were discussing at the meeting, 
and was unanimously adopted as a candidate, and he 
was advised then to get to work canvassing as soon as 
possible. Next day I had a business engagement in 
Canterbury in the afternoon, and I was obliged to go 
away, in the meanwhile I put on two or three clerks to 
arrange the register in street lists as far as possible. I 
came back from Canterbury by the 7.40 tram reaching 
Deal, and on my arrival I was informed that a gentleman 
had come down from London to conduct the election for 
Mr. Crompton Roberts. I was then introduced to 
Mr. Hughes. He came to my office. He said, ''I do 
** not want to interfere with you in any way if you want 
" to conduct the election." I said, "No, you are much 
" better able to conduct the election than I am." He 
put the papers in his pocket, he went to the Royal Hotel, 
and the next day I turned over the staff of clerks which 
I had engaged to him. 

3770. Before it was decided, and from the time it was 
decided, to adopt Mr. Crompton Roberts as a candidate, 
did any conversation take place between you as to the 
expense of fighting the borough? — No. 

3771. Was it not said that it was necessary to have a 
man who had got means and would spend money P — No, 
I never mentioned anything about monetary affiurs to 
Mr. Crompton Roberts at all, and I never heard anything 
mentioned to him in my presence. 

3772. Nothing was mentioned to him in your presence P 
— Not in the slightest degree. 

3773. You say you handed over all your papers to 
Mr. Hughes P— I did. 

3774. Did i^one request you to undertake any 
department p — ^Yes. I think, about three days after that, 
I will not be sure whether it was three days, I had a 
heavy sale on, and I could not attend to anything but 
my own business, and I did not go near the committee 
room for a couple of days, but on the third day, I think 
it was, I was down at the committee room. People 
bothered Mr. Hughes for flags and colours, and he said, 
* * I wish someone would take this off my hands. " I said, 
" What is itP " He said, '*To look after the flags and 
" colours. I suppose we shall be bound to have them, 
*' but we shall not have them unless the other side do." 
I said, '* Very well, I will undertake anything of that 
" sort" 

3775. You say Mr. Hughes came down on the 5th P — 
Yes. 

3776. You were engaged for two or three d^ ?— I 
will not be sure. I expect this would be about Friday, 
about the 7th. 



3777. Yon said you would undertake that department P 
—Yes. 

3778. Did he give you authority to do what you thought 
proper with re^rd to that ? — He said, " I will leave it 
•* entirely in your hands." 

3779. He did not give you any instructions as to what 
you should do P— Nothing at all. He simply referred 
everyone who asked him for flags to me, and that was a 
very great many. 

3780. He authorized you to do what you thought 
necessary P — Yes. 

3781. Then you did, in point of fact, take the whole of 
that department yourself ? — I did, for Deal and Walmer. 
I ultimately gave up Walmer, some few days afterwards, 
and left it in the luuids of Marley, because I had quite 
enough to do with Deal. 

3782. You seem to have done your work very effi- 
ciently P — I had the credit of not doing it half enough. 

3783. Did you take any part in this election except in 
this flag and colour department P — None at all. 

3784. Not in canvassing P — No. There are some 
extracts from the bills (handing 8mne)y which I think 
have already been flled, as to wlmt was actually supplied 
in the shape of flags and colours. 

3785. I see you sent in an account of what you had 
eitiier paid or rendered yourself liable forP — ^Yes. I 
may explain that I made the payments at Afferent times. 
As soon as I had incurred responsibilities to the amount 
of lOOL I sent to Mr. Hughes and asked him for a 
cheque. 

3786. I will ask you about that. Before I go to the 
account I will ask you this, you gave orders for certain 
goods P — Yes. 

3787. And as soon as you had incurred, as von say, 
responsibilities for about lOOZ. you sent and asked 
Mr. Hughes for a cheque P — I did. 

3788. You got a cheque from him P— -Yes, about a day 
or two afterwards. 

3789. How soon after did you get that first cheque, 
do you remember the day P — I do not. The cheque was 
payable to bearer. I went to the bank and got the 
money, and went and paid the accounts myself or sent 
my clerk. I paid them immediately. 

3790. You cannot remember what day that was P — ^I 
cannot, but I think it is stated on the particulars which 
I furnished, on the Petition inquiry. 

3791. Was it the 14th May ; that would be about the 
date I expect P — Something uke that 

3792. And at that time you told Mr. Hughes about the 
extent of the liabilities you had incurred P — That was all 
then. 

3793. And what for P— Yes. 

3794. That was about lOOL P— I think, by the bye, I 
had incurred a greater liability at that tune, but I said, 
** Give me 1002. for the present, because people do not 
" care about supplying colours on a second account until 
** they had been paid the first." 

3795. You got on the following day, the 15th, another 
lOOZ. P— Yes. 

3796. At that time you had incurred, I suppose, 
liabilities to the extent of something over 2002. P — Yes ; 
and then I told Mr. Hughes I tiaought it was time 
to stop. 

3797. Then the day before the election you got another 
1002. .P— Yes. 

3798. And after the election you got 70L P— Yes, and 
since that I have had 302. to pay the two accounts which 
were owing at the time the Petition was outstanding. 
I have paid altogether about 4002. 

3799. This account altogether is 3312. 13«. P— I do not 
know. I filed all the accounts at Sandwich, and I think 
there are vouchers for every account. 

3800. Just take that summary {handing same), I will 
go through it afterwards ; we will take the total first. 
The account, including Chapman and Loyns' account, ia 
3312. 138, P— Yes. 

3801. In addition to that there is paid messengers 
account, 142. 18«. That really is not for messengers. 
That is for men delivering flagstaff, and boys, paid clerk 
keeping register of flags lent out, paid men in charge of 
banners, boys holdia^ cords to ditto, men employed to 
protect flags and devices, messengers, and paid putting 
up flagpoles at Mr. Gosley's ; that is 142. 168. P — ^Yes. 

3802. The flags, colours, and rosettes included in the 
account for 3312. 13«. were for Deal P—Yes. 

3803. Then there is an account from Marley for flags 



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at Walmer, 521. 8e. lid,, makiiig d98L 190. lU P-^That 
is it. 

3804. That does not include 422. 48, 4d., whioh is 
part of Gloke*s aooount at Sandwioh -which has since 
been paid ? — No. 

3805. That makes 4412. is. 3d., and it does not 
indnde, I think, an item of 332. 6«., Chapman, to bows 
for canvassers P — I do not know. I had nothing to do 
with that. I do not think it includes that item. There 
are bills for every item in that list. 

3806. I think it does not include that, nor does it 
include a sum of 2792. Ida. 9(2. for poles and cordage P 
—No. 

3807. Adding the poles and cordage and Chapman's 
aooount for rosettes supplied to canvassers, and Mr. 
doke's account, 422. 4a. 4d. for flags at Sandwich, it 
comes to 7542. lOs. P — Quite likely. 

3808. Now we will run through a few of the items. 
I see the first item is Dunn. That is for some goods 
ordered at a fancy shop, is it notP — Yes, there were 
two bills. 

3809. That is 132. IS*. Mr. Dunn is a voter P— This 
was ordered of Mrs. Dunn, who is a milliner. 

3810. Mr. Dunn is a voter P — Yes, I expect he is. 

3811. What was that for P— For resetter. 

3812. The next is Cattermole P— That is for making 
rosettes. 

3813. That is 22. 5«. Mr. Cattermole is a voter p— 
Yes. 

3814 The next is Bead for making flags p— 
32. 6«. 

3815. Mrs. Bead's husband is a voter P — I think there 
were several Wc. Bead's daughters, and some others. 

3816. At any rate he is a voter P— I do not think you 
must recognise him in the transaction at all, because 
Mr. Bead has called on me since and told me he had 
nothing to do with it at alL The account was simply 
made out in the name of Bead, but I think four females 
made them. 

3817. Still they are members of his household P— I 
do not think they are. 

3818. Ar^ neither of them, neither his wife nor 
daughter P — One of his daughters, I believe. 

3819. We will pass over that, it is not a very large 
item. The next is Enight, Dolphin Street, 62. 12«. 
Is that for making rosettes P — Yes. 

8820. Her brother is a voter P — I do not think so. 
She is a milliner. 

3821. But her brother is a voter P — I do not know. 

3822. The next is Wilkins, tailor, for making flags, 
52. 15«. He is a voter ?— Yes. 

3823. The next is Bennett 12. for making flags P — 
Yes. 

3824. Her husband is a voter p — ^I do not know. I 
am not sure about that. 

3825. The next is Pittock, tailor, for rosettes, 
392. 109. 7(2. What quantity of rosettes does that 
represent P — ^It is all set out in the account. 

3826. It is not all for rosettes, because some of it is 
for red twill for flags P>-I think there were 200 or 300 
yards of twill for rosettes, and there is one thing in that 
account which Mr. Spofiforth could not have explained 
when he. was heard the other day. I think you have 
a note made about that on the petition — *'Not in his 
** books." Mr. Jeune, I think, asked him the question. 
I can tell you how that came on the particulars. When 
the particulars were delivered in the petition Mr. Hughes 
asked me to enquire into those matters that personally 
affected the Bespondent, Mr. Boberts. Amongst other 
thin^ he was charged with having bribed Mr. Pittock 
by givmg him a large order for flags, and I called on 
Mr. Pittock and asked him what he had to say to' it. 
•• Well," he said, " I have not his name on my books." 
I must have written to Mr. Spofforth, or seen him, and 
so he put against it, " Not in his books," meaning that 
Mr. Boberts' name was not on Mr. Pittock's books at 
all. I had given the order. That is how it came on 
the particulars. 

3827. That was the order for 392. 10#. 7c2. for rosettes 
and twill P— Yes. 

3828. Mackins, 32. lU. He is a publican P— I think 
this may be his sister. ^ 

3829. How came he to be supplying bows and flags P 
— His sister is a milliner at Walmer. 

3830. But he is a voter P — ^Yes, but he is quite inde- 
pendent of them who made these. 



3831. You think this was the sister P^I think so. 

3832. There is Solly, 182. ISs. That is Mrs. SoUy, 
but I see the receipt is signed by her husband. He 
is a voter P — Yes, I expect so. 

3833. Barrett, publican, making bows, 12. 10«. He 
is a voter P—Yes, I expect so. 

3834. His wife made them, perhaps P— In all instances 
they came down to me to see if I could not give tibem 
an order to make bows. So-and-so and so-and-so were 
making them, why could not I give them an order. I 
said, '' Well as we shall want bows you can make two or 
" three dozen." 

3836. A great many people wanted this work P— Yes, 
they came to me and solicited it. If I had turned to 
ever^ one this list would have been four times as long 
as this. 

3836. With the exception of two or three they are all 
voters P — ^Yes, and there were a good many more. This 
does not represent a third of what applied in Deal to 
me I should think. 

3837. The next is PhHps, 82. 15«. 8<l. He is a voter P 
— Yes, I expect so. 

3838. The next is jMockitt, 42. 108. for nine dozen 
favours. Her husband is a voter p — No, I do not think' 
so. I think she is a widow. 

3839. If you look at the register you will see the name 
of Mockitt down as a voter P — ^I will not be sure. 

3840. Do you know the address of the person who 
made the favours P —I do not unless it is on the bill. 

' 3841. Then there is Pointer & CJo., 92. 17«. 2d. ; that 
is for cambric P — Yes. 

3842. The members of the firm were voters P — ^Yes, 
I expect so ; but there is also an item on the other side 
Pointer & Oo., which I heard read this morning. I 
know there is. 

3843. Then there is Elliott, 22. 16«. Her husband is 
a voter ? — Yes. This was the daughter. 

3844. The receipt is signed by him p— Yes, or the 
daughter who solicited the order. 

3845. The receipt is signed by Mr. Elliott P— It is 
quite likely. 

3846. The next is Eemball, 132 15^. Ilc2. He is a 
voter P — ^Yes. 

3847. The next is Selth, 10«. That is a small sum, 
but her husband is a voter. The next is Laker, 12., her 
husband is a voter. The next is Grigg Is. 6d., tiiat is 
a small one. Then there is Bennett, Hawkins, and 
Wilkins 32., the husbands of those three are voters P — 
Yes, it is quite likely they would be. I will not be 
sure. 

3848. They live in three successive houses, 21, 22, and 
23, Gladstone Boad, and are all voters. The next is 
Pearson 22. ?— Her husband is a voter. 

3849. The next is Tomlin 22. 14«. I think he is not a 
voter ; but the next. Hunter 22. for rosettes, is a voter. 
The next is Chapman, draper, 472. 6«. 9d. ; he is a voter ? 
—Yes. 

3850. That is in addition to 332. 68. for rosettes made 
for canvassers P — I suppose so. 

3851. That makes altogether 802. 12«. 9d. for Chapman. 
The next is Home who is a voter 9*. Sd., and the next is 
Chandler who is a voter. I think there was one bill 
for Chandler before. This bill is 132. 17«. lOd. ?— I do 
think there is one Chandler before. 

3852. That is for bows P— Not all of it, I think. 

3853. He is a tailor P— Yes, but it is not all for bows. 
That is for twill. I got Chandler to get me some. We 
could not get enough twill, and I did not like to get it 
from any of the drapers on the other side, so I got him 
to go round and get it for me, and he charged it in his 
account. 

3854. Have you any bill showing the quantity of 
rosettes or things supplied by Chapman— have you had 
any account P— Yes, the bills were all there with the 
items, and the numbers were on them. 

3855. I see that this bill of Chapman's for 472. 68. 9d., 
is in addition to 172. 9«., which is also to Chapman in 
your own account, the last item but one ?— Which was 
unpaid— it has been paid since. 

3856. It is in your account 642. lbs. 9c2. P— I may ex- 
plain why that account was so large. We could not get 
sufficient rosettes and cambric for the flags, so I got 
Mr. Chapman to get other people to make them and 
bring the bills in to me, and also to go round to the 
diflerent shops in the town to get the materials we 
wanted. Our colours being purple and orange, were not 
BO easy to get as blue. 



T. J. Uiher. 
8 Ocr. 1880. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



3857. I understand bo many people applied to you for 
work tiiat you had to turn them away ?— Yes, to make 
theroeettes. 

3868. There were 350 yards of cambric and about 
60 dozen rosettes in this one account. Then we have 
got Huntley lU. Ss. 9(2., he is a voter. Brown 3«., he is 
a voter, lien there is Pritohard lOi. lis. lOd. for rope 
and twine— he is a voter, and then there is Frankhn, a 
voter, for rosettes again, 39L 10«. 5d., and Adams IZ. IQs. 
Huntley again, a voter ?— The same Huntley. 

3859. That makes 28L lis, Sd, Then there is Durban 
3L, a voter, and Blogg IL 7«., he is not a voter. That is 
the third of the people who were not voters P— I do not 
think it was Durban who made that. 

3860. You think the Durban who made that was not a 
voter ? — No. 

3861. He was the husband P— I think he had nothing 
to do with it. 

3862. I see you have taken out a summary of the 
quantities P — ^i es, as near as I could get them. 

3863. There is twill 1,118 yards and cambric 2,078 
yards, making for those two materials 3,196 yards, and 
from that you say you made 600 flagts^— 1,600 yards, 
leaving 1,596 yards, and that was given away to women 
and (mildrenP— To make flags themselves. We could 
not make them fast enough. 

3864. Then half the quantity purchased was given 
awayp — ^For people to make them up themselves. We 
oould not make them fast enough. 

3865. Within four yards of half of it was given away 
to people to make the flags themselves ? — Yes, it was the 
purple and orange cambric — it was very common ma- 
terial, glazed lining in fact. 

3866. You managed to divide the rosettes one for each, 
voter P— They wanted more— they wanted one for every 
ehild in the nunily, and this is a noted place for children. 
They were given principally to the women. They used 
to come wim the children in their arms, ** Mr. Usher give 
** me a rosette, I have not had one," and then they 
wanted so many for so many children they had at home. 

3867. (Mr. Jeune.) What is the population of Deal 
and Wahner P— I think 13,000. 

3868. That is indudiog Sandwich is it not P— No. 

3869. I think so P — ^I will not be sure. The population 
of Deal Proper is 8,000 and something. 

3870. The flags mentioned in this account were inde- 
pendent of 240 flags which were made by Ohapman P— 
Yes. 

3871. So that altogether, besides the 1,600 yards 
which you gave away to people to make their own flags, 
you made ^ flagsP— Yes, there was a flag out of nearly 
every house in the town, in fact if the election had lasted 
anomer week we should not have seen the houses at all 
for flags. 

[Adjourned for a short time.] 

3872. I understand you received three sums of lOOL 
each prior to the election, and 70Z. afterwards?— And 
802. 

8873. That was to payLloyns and Chapman?— Yes; 
28L 

8874. Beyond that, have you received any sums at 
allP-No. 

3876. You paid Marley's account, did you not?— Yes, 
that is included in that. I gave him a cheque out of the 
400Z. I gave Marley a cheque for 522., I think, to pay 
him. 

8876. That was paid out of that amount P— Yes. 

8877. You received altogether 4002. exactly P—Yes. 

3878. Is that all the money you received in connexion 
with the election P — ^Yes. 

3879. Directly or indirectly p— Directly or indirectly. 

3880. From anyone P— From anyone. I have received 
a cheque since, but it has nothing to do with the election^ 
it is smiply on account of this year's registration. 

3881. You have received nothing beyond 400Z., directly 
or indirectly from anyone P — No. 

3882. Do these accounts, which you have handed in, 
and which I have been referring to, 142. 168., 8312. Id^., 
and 522. 89. lld.y represent aU the claims that you have 
had in respect of this election P — No, they do not. 

3883. What others have you hadP— I have had an 
account rendered to me by Messrs. Frost, Brothers, for 
some flags tiiat they supplied, but of which I was not 
cognizant, and gave no oraer for, therefore I declined to 
recognise it. 



8884. Who are Frost, Brothers P—Ironmongen in the 
town. 

3885. What is the amount of that P~I forget what the 
amount was, but there were two different bms ; I think, 
to the best of my recollection, they amount to about 72. 
I will not be sure, but it is not larger than that, I think. 

3886. Have you had any other claims made upon you P 
— Not any — well, one man of the name of Bedman, he 
keeps the '* True Briton,'' — brought me a bill for refresh- 
ments which he had supplied. It is a pubUc-house at 
Wahner. I will not be sure whether it is the *' True 
"Briton." I told him I knew nothing about it, and, 
therefore, I declined to have anything to do with it. 

3887. What was the amount of thatP — Somewhere 
about Ss. or 9^., or something like that. There is one 
other item which does not appear in the account, which 
I have paid myself, which I might mention to you. I 
paid 22. to my father to go to Canterbury to get a man 
out of the Canterbury Hospital, who was very ill, but 
the doctor said he would be well enough to come down 
and vote, provided he had someone to take care of him, 
and travm in a comfortable carnage. I therefore paid 
my father 22., and asked him to go to Canterbury to 
bring this man out, to have a fly from the hospital to 
the station, and from the station back again, and also 
to go back again to Canterbury, which he did. 

3888. Did that include the expense of coming over P — 
Every^ng ; that included his own railway fare and the 
man's ; his was a double railway fare. 

3889. That was to pay all the expenses of that P—Yes. 

3890. Both the expenses of the man and his coming 
over P—Yes, and I tmnk he was about a shilling or so 
out of pocket. 

8891. Where you aware of any cormpt practices by 
money being distributed, or anything of that kind P — 
No, I was not actually aware of it, but I had a suspicion 
that it was so. 

3892. Do you know, or had you any suspicion, or any 
ground for believing that any money was distributed, 
beyond what Mr. Olds told us of, with reference to the 
1,2002. which came down on the Monday before Uie 
election P — I have not any idea at all upon the subject. 
I did not hear Mr. Olds' evidence upon the point; 
personally I have no knowledge of any money at all, 
and my only suspicions are gathered from outside chatter 
which I have heard. I may mention that there are two 
charges made against me in the particulars of bribery, 
whidb I utterly deny, in fact, it is a vilUmous lie, who- 
ever put it in there. 

3893. (Mr, Tvmer.) You were not called then P— I was 
called, and I denied it. With respect to the flags I gave 
out, I may sav that flags that I considered of any value, 
possiblv wortn 12$. or 14^., I simply issued as a loan, 
and took a receipt from the persons that they were to 
return them on demand, but it so happened tliat during 
the whole of the election, we had such a strong north- 
easterly wind that there were very few flags which were 
worth anvthing by the time the election was over. I 
got some back. A flag that I considered to be of any 
value I took a receipt for. 

8894. (Mr. HoU.) What became of them P— I have 
some now ; those that were worth collecting. 

8895. The flag poles, I understand, were onlv hired P 
— ^I had nothing to do with those at all, in fact, we did 
not put any flags up until the opposite party did, sd- 
though we had &e mg poles and the flags. 

3896. (Mr. Jetme.) Were the flags and rosettes on the 
other side as large as yours do vou think P — ^I am afraid 
there was much rivalry on either side to have large 
flags. If A. who lived at 100, Lower Street had a blue 
flag, and B. was a Conservative, he would try and cover 
it with a larger one ; and C, who Hved next door, would 
have a larger flag still, so they tried to cover up with 
flags. It became too great, and I was obliged to give it 
up before the election. 

3897. You think when once the display of colours 
begins, it is pretty sure to be carried to a great hei^t P 
— Yes, to extremes, and there is no meaning in it, 
nothing 1^ all, it is simply utterly useless expenditure, 
that is my opinion about it, but absolutely necessary. 
Some of them would come and blackguard me. ** If you 
" do not give me a flag, I will not vote. " I said, ** Very 
*' well, you can do just what you like." I had some 
large rosettes in mv office, and |pme person came in and 
wanted a rosette ; he had ^one given to him, but he did 
not think it large enough. I tend him he oould not have 
one. He said, " Why can't I have one." I said, *• They 
<* are for horses." He said, '< Well, aint we better than 
** horses ; we have votes and they have not." 



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MINUTES or EVIDENCE, 



79 



3898. (3fr. HoU,) Ton had a mnoh larger display of 
flags on thiri occasion ? — Yes, a larger display, but tney 
were all of no value. I have seen at elections here, 20 
or 28 years ago, some very handsome flags ; bat here I 
should say there was not a flag exhibited worth more 
than a sovereign, barring the flag I had made. 

3899. During the last 10 or 15 years there has been 
no expenditure for flags to any extent p — No ; these were 
all cambric flags, glazed lining, and they would fly to 
pieces very soon. The best flag we had during the 
whole election was one to carry in front of the band 
on the day of the election^ for which I paid 3^., I 

thiTilr , 

3900. Yon began getting ready? — Yes; we were told 
we had a man with plenty of means. But the opposite 
side said, ''If yours can spend 2,000L, ours can spend 
^* 4,000Z., and if yours can spend4,000L, ours can spend 
" 8,000Z.;" flo we were jolly well sure it would be a sharp 
oQDtesi" 



3901. In fact you intended to have a good display of r. J, Usher, 

this kind? — We meant to win if popularity would 

win. The fact is, we had the popular man, and they had 8 Oct. 1880. 
not. _««^ 

3902. When you say " the popular man," what do you 
mean P — Mr. Roberts, in his manner, watf a genial kind 
of man; he was, I diould say, a large-hearted man, 
and Sir Julian was a different land of man altogether. 

3903. A pleasant sort of man p — He was in his bearing 
courteous to everyone, and Sir Julian treated everybody, 
in my opinion, in a sort of superdlious manner, as if he 
was infinitely superior to the whole lot of us here ; but 
we did not think sa 

3904. (Mr. Jetme.) If Mr. Crompton Roberts had been 
the liberal, and Sir Julian had been the Conservative, 
do you think Mr. Crompton Boberts would have beaten 
Sir Julian P— I do. 

8905. (Mr. Roll) He had got a start too P— Yes, we 
had six days' start. 



Edwin Cobnwell sworn and examined. 



E. ComwdL 



8906. (Mr, Turner,) What are you P — A gentleman. 

3907. You appear to have taken an active part in this 
election, on the part of Sir Julian, at Deal P — I sup- 
pose I might caU myself almost private secretary to 
Mr. Edwards, more than anything else. 

3908. I see from the return made by Mr. Edwards 
that you appear to have taken upon yourself the employ- 
ment of the messengers P — No, I did not ; they were 
employed by Wyman and Lownds. I paid them, but 
not employed them. 

3909. You appear to have paid them a sum of 124Z. 2^. P 
—Yes. 

3910. What class of people were those messengers ; 
principally watermen P — ^Boatmen. There were a few 
some tradesmen's sons, and some board boys. 

3911. Have you any list of themp — ^Unfortunately, 
Mr. Edwards has lost tne hst, but I have a rough copy 
of the account. I handed in the list to him. There is 
every amount, and the total (handing an account to the 
Commissioner). You will see an item of 232. 69., and 
9dL , making up the amount 

3912. There are no names here P — No. I handed the 
list to Mr. Edwards, and Mr. Edwards appears to have 
lost it 

3913. How many messengers were there thenP — ^I 
think there were something like 230 or 250. 

3914. For Deal P—Yes. They were not all employed 
upon one day, you will understand. Perhaps 30 or 40 
were employed upon ontf day, and 30 or 40 upon another, 
and soon. 

8915. They were not emploved all through the elec- 
tion P— Some were employed lor two days, and some for 
the whole time. Where there were messengers who 
were really useful to us, such as we could depend upon, 
they would be kept on right through. 

3916. Had you many applications to employ them P — 
Yes ; we could have employed double the number. 

3917. You employed more than you wanted because 
of the number P — ^Yes, they are the greatest nuisance in 
an election. 

3918. How maAy regular messengers did you employ 
throughout the whole time P — ^I should think perhaps 20 
or 30. 

3919. Out of the 200 ?— Yes ; ihe others were employed 
every day. 

3920. What did you pay them P— The board boys we 
paid 28, a day ; if they were a littie older we paid them 
28. 6cL ; young lads Za. or 3«. 6d. ; young men 48,, and 
the men 68. 

3921. Boys who were employed at 2^. a day — ^what age 
were they ? — I shotdd think they were 10 or 12 years old. 

8922. They were messengers P — They were board boys 
— not messengers — carrying boards. 

8923. You say they were all employed, but some of 
them were employed every day ? — ^Every day. 

3924. Every day during the election P — Yes, every 
day. 

3925. What was ihe time they were employed P — ^There 
were a quantity of bills to take out, and mere was a good 
deal of hteratiue going on ; there is always employment 
for those sort of things; we could have <K>ne mth a less 
number. 

3926. How many could you have done with P — I should 
think, if we had had about 40 good ones, it would have 
been ample for us— from 40 to 50. 



3927. Were tiiey the sons of voters, these boys whom 
you employed ? — I really cannot say. I took good care 
there should be no voters among them. I made all 
inquiry about that. I will give you an instanoe : One 
morning I wanted a messenger to go over to Sandwich, 
and I went to the passage and said I wanted a man to go 
to Sandwich, and there was a man there of the name of 
Elliott who has figured a good deal in this election. I said, 
"What are you here for, Elliott?" He said, ** I am a 
" voter," isaid, ** Yes, but you cannot be employed." 
He begged verv hardifor me to let him go, and I did let 
him go to Sandwich. I gave him some&ing for refresh- 
ments and paid his railway fare. The next day I saw 
him wearing the Conservative colour because he would 
not be employed. 

3928. That is the man who has disappeared ?— Yes, 
that is the very man ; he said he was offended by me 
because I would not employ him. 

3929. You have told us, I think, that there were 230 
altogether employed ?— Yes, about 230. 

3930. How many days were most of them employed ? 
— I should think, to take the average, three to four da;^. 
I think you will see the amounts against them which 
some of them, perhaps 11. and perhaps 359. 

3931. Who supplied you with money to pay these? — 
Mr. Edwards. 

3932. After the election or before the election ? — ^I had 
some before the election and some after— the greater 
part after the election. We paid 2Sl. 6«. (I think you 
will see two items there) on the Saturday for messengers 
for this very reason— there had been a north-east wind 
for a very long time, tmd there was a great deal of real 
want in the town. I was gone home to tea, and a message 
came that these men had been bothering Sir Julian very 
much that they should have some money : some of them 
said they had no bread to eat, and would I pay them. It 
was a very unusual thing to pay them before the Section, 
but some of them I paid the 23^.— those who pressed 
very hard, and the remainder was paid afterwards. 

3933. Then there is an item, ''Personation agents, 
'' guides, clerks, canvassers, poll clerks, and committee 
" derks, 61Z. 178. 6d.'* Can you tell me how many of 
those you employed P — ^I have retained the rough copy 
(handmg same). Mr. Edwards had the other. 

3934. You give us the names here? — I give you the 
names there. 

3935. Some of these are voters, I think P — Some of 
those are voters. I will tell you which are voters if you 
call them down. 

3936. Finnis is a voter ?— No. 
8937. BQey P-^No. 

3938. Arthur Frost?— No. 
8939. CambumP— No. 

3940. RamweU?— No. 

3941. KmgsfordP— No. 

3942. Finnis, W. P— No. 

3943. Fitch, W. P— No. 

3944. Fitch, J. P— No. 

3945. Pettitt, T. A. P-^Yes. 

3946. Beynolds P->He is a voter. 

3947. Bound, Walter P~No. 

3948. One dozen delivery derks. Barlow guide P— He 
is a voter. 

3949. What is the meaning of guides?— They went 



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SANDWICH ELEOTIOK COMMISSION: 



E. ComwelL 



8 Oct. 1880. 



round with Sir Julian and Ladj Goldamid to show them 
where the voters lived. 

3950. King, Murray?— No. 

3951. Lownds? — He is a voter. 

3052. Then there is a name lower down, Fitch P — He 
is a voter. 

3953. Penny ?— He is a voter. 

3954. White?— No. 

3955. Kitchen ?— Yes, Kitohen is a voter, bat nothing 
to do with that. 

3956. Mose P— Yes, he is a voter. 

3957. Those are the persons that yon employed? — 
Yes, they were nsed as derks and poll derks, and in 
some cases personating agents too. 

3958. Had a man 42. for one day for being a poll 
clerk? — No, the whole of the time and poll clerk as 
well. 

3959. The 4Z. covers the whole of the election ?— The 
whole of it. I told you what we gave them, the clerks 
7«. a day ; they worked on Sundays, and Mr. Edwards 
said Ihat they were to have double pay, and on the day 
of ttie election we gave them IQs, 

3960. That makes up the U. ?— That makes up the U. 
in each case. 

3961. Barlow, the guide, was that all the time? — 
Yes. 

3962. Were the guides always at their service, they 
did not go with them every day P — ^Yes, every day. 

3963. (Mr. Boll) They were paid 10«. a day apparently P 
—Yes. 

3964. In your further account there is an item 
" T. C. Hall, for out- voters, 15L" ?— Yes, 15Z. on account ; 
he had to attend to the out-voters, he asked me for 
money ; first of all I gave him lOZ. and 52., or hi. first and 
102. afterwards. 

3965. Who were these out-voters? — ^Persons living at 
a distance. Mr. Hall is a solicitor. 

3966. Do you know how many there were of them ? — 
There were not many, there were something like three 
or four of them ; one or two came from Scotland I know. 
I can explain the whole of that 152. not being expended. 
Mr. Hall has rendered an account of that in his regular 
account. 

3967. He has not had it deducted from his fee ?— No. 

3968. He has returned some of it I am told? — He has 
not returned any of it, only in his account. 

3969. Do you know how much he has expended of 
this 152. P— I think about 92., but I am not quite 
certain. 

3970. "Pilcher, Canterbury electioh agent, 152.," 
what is that ?— He is the son of Mr. Filcher ; he came 
over here, and I was very glad to have him down to 
attend to tiie routine of the election, and I gave him 52. ; 
there is his receipt for it. 

3971. '*Goymer, 122."?— He was what you call the 
head clerk of the whole ; he was up day and night, he 
took the whole of that department upon him, and he 
was a personating agent as well. 

3972. Where were his quarters?— At the "Star and 
Garter,*' the head committee room. There were two 
252. you have not mentioned in that account which 
should have really come into my account, and yet I 
don*t think they ought, but still they passed thi-oogh 
my hands. There is 252. to Warner, and 252. to Watts 
of the " BAilway " inn. They wanted money on account 



of the election. Warner's arose in this way. Sir Julian 
came in after he had been round canvassing, and he 
found a party in ve^ great distress. He said they were 
not voters, and would I send someone to relieve them. 
Warner happened to be in t^e room, and I said, " Will 
• • you undertake that duty ? " He said he would. Then 
he said, " I have no money to go on with." I mentioned 
it to Mr. Edwards, who said, " You had better let him 
" have 252. on account of the election," and he was to 
render an account, which he has not done yet. 

3973. Then Watts, what is that P— Watts of the 
" Bailway " inn. That was a district committee room. 
He applied for 252. on account of the election. I applied 
to mi. Edwards, and he had it. He handed it to me to 
hand it over to him, as he was not there. 

3974. Are those all the moneys you have had to do 
with ? — ^The whole of them, nothmg more. It will make 
8032. 6«. 6(2., I think. 2952. 1 have really had, and there 
were 22. 2«. which Mr. Edwards put into my account^ 
which makes it 2972. 

3975. 2892. 6«. 6i., and then there are two 252., which 
makes 2892. 14«. ?— Then there is Lownds' account, 142. 

8976. What is that ? — He was the principal man to 
attend to the board boys. Mr. Edwards told me to give 
him 142., and I did so. 

3977. He looked after the board boys during the 
election? — Yes. 

3978. What is he?— He is a tailor by trade, but he 
is not able to work ; he had an accident. 

3979. Is he a voter P— Yes. 

8980. That makes 3032. 6». 6(2. ?— Yes, 

8981. {Mr, HolL) You have had 2972. ?— I have had 
2952., but Mr. Edwards has charged two guineas in my 
account which he omitted. 



{Mr. Turner.) Have you received any other 
moneys in connexion with the election ? — Not a penny. 

89S^. Have you paid any others? — ^I have not paid 
any others, nor had any other demand. 

8984. Have jou made any ot^er promises, or incoired 
any other liabilities ?— No, not anything. 

3985. Who were you principally in communication 
with?— Mr. Edwards. You may say I was his con- 
fidential clerk more than anything else. 

3986. Did you hear anything about the money being 
brought down by Mr. Foord ?— No, the first I heard of it 
was in this Ck>urt. ' I was not aware of it. 

3987. {Mr. HoU,) You did not know any money had 
come down at all ?— No. Mr. Edwards never told me 
anything at all about it. 

3988. You say you are Mr. Edwards' confidential 
clerk ?— I said you might call me that ; I did not say I 
was. 

3989. You were in his confidence — ^I only meant to 
follow your own idea — ^you were very much in his con- 
fidence ? — Yes. 

3990. Do you say you never heard of this money 
coining down P — No, I did not. 

3991. Not until to-day ?— I cannot tell you. I do not 
suppose I saw Mr. Edwards all the election except the 
first day or two, but any transaction of that kind was 
done outside the committee room altogether. I knew 
nothing about it ; I do not suppose tJiey woidd like me 
to know. 

3992. {Mr. Turner.) As you were a confidant of 
Mr. Edwards we thought you might know P— No, I do 
not. 



J. P. RamelL 



John Pbttbt Rambll sworn and examined. 



{The Witness.) Before I give my evidence I should 
like to be allowed to make an explanation. In the local 
paper there is a statement that my account amounted to 
2872. I do not wish to make the explanation only for 
my own sake, but for others, and also for the paper ; I 
think an explanation ought to be made. My account 
was only 2082. Then also there is another sum of 52. 
that I received put down as 502. 

3993. {Mr. Jewne.) You are put down as having 
received 2872. ; it is true, is it not P — ^No. 

3994. I will ask you presently vdiat you did receive ; 
I think it was 2802. P— No, 208/. 

8995. Is your complaint that they have put vou down 
as receiving 2872., whereas in fact it was 2082. P— Yes. 

8996. We will rectify that presentlj^ by your evidence ; 
you shall have a chance of teUiog it to us all straight. 
What are you P— A grocer. 



3997. You took an active part in the election; you 
interested yourself in this election P— Yes. 

3998. I may as well take you at once to the sum you 
received ; what was the sum you received altoge&er 
from Mr. Edwards p— 2082. 

3999. Where did you have it, and how did you have 
it P— The first amount I had, I think, was 1102., that 
was upon t|i6 Thursday, the first Thursday after Sir 
Julian came down ; and the next amount I had was, I 
think, 652. ; and the next amount was the balance. 

4000. Was it in each case paid in sovereigns? — In 
gold. 

4001. When do you say you got the balance that made 
up the 2082. P— I think I had pretty well all in the week. 
I am not quite positive as to the last amount, whether 
it was in two lots or one. 

4002. What were you told by Mr. Edwards to do ; 

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MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 



81 



what were your dntiea at this election P— Mr. Cornwall, 
Mr. Edwards, and myself had a consultation upon the 
morning after Sir JuHan came down in the evening, at 
the " Star and Garter Hotel," and there were perhaps 
250 boatmen outside to know what they were to do. Of 
course Sir Julian was late in the field, and we talked 
over what it was best to do ; and I suggested, I think, 
that we should go in for flags and poles, and drape the 
house in blue ; we chatted it over, and we thought that 
would be the best thing, and Mr. Edwards asked me if 
I would undertake to carry it out, and I said, **Yes." 
Mr. Edwards told me to go to different parties in the 
town and order the things, and he would give me the 
money. I went and told the boatmen what they had 
got to go, and whether they wanted the flag-poles up, 
and they said, that was what they were asking for, and 
they gave me a list of what they wanted. I told them 
I would go and order the poles and the rope, or rather 
I told them where to get* it. I wenttolSfo. Bristow's, 
and looked out the poles, and I went to Mr. Finnis, and 
gave him instructions to let the boatmen have a certain 
amount of rope, what they required for putting up the 
poles, and each boatman was to take a paper to him 
with instructions from me. * 

4003. Now I will ask you about these accounts. Here 
is Mr. Balph ; I do not think you ordered the rope from 
him P— No. 

4004. You paid for putting up the flag-poles 118^. ?— 
I have got the receipts for aU ; they were handed to 
Mr. Edwards once, and he returned tiiem to me in case 
I might want them. I think you will find a receipt for 
everything. These are all the receipts (handing a bundle 
of papers to the Commissioners). 

4005. You say I shall find here receipts which will 
make up the 118^. for putting up the flag poles P — Yes. 

4006. How many flag poles were put up ; do you 
remember ? — Mr. feristow can tell you that ; not all, 
because I had some from other places. . I sent in all the 
accounts to Mr. Edwards, and I have only the receipts. 

4007. Do you remember about how much you got for 
putting up each pole ? — 30«. a pole, with the exception 
of one and that is a large one. 

4008. That is a separate item of 1U, P— Yes. 

4009. I suppose you put up about 60 or 70 poles ? — 
Quite that. 

4010: 80 perhaps P — Yei ; in fact there were several 
poles I put up that I paid for out of my own pocket. 

4011. Yon put up one way or another getting on for 
100 poles P— Yes, nearly 100 poles. 

4012. In Deal and Walmer P— No, I had nothing to 
do with Walmer. Gladstone Boad I had to do with, but 
tiiat is in Deal district 

4013. Qood gracious! you must have crowded the 
place with poles, did you not P — Oh, no. 

4014. It is-not a very big place ; did the other side 
put up 100 poles too P — I should think they did. 

4015. There must have been a perfect forest of poles, 
I should think ? — ^Yes, in fact we drew people from all 
parts of the country to come and see it. 

4016. The big pole was upon the Prince of Wales's 
Terrace ?— Yes. 

4017. That was 25^. P— Yes. 

4018. I should like to ask you whether you think onljr 
a fair price was paid, or do you think that a little bit 
was put on, considering it was election time ? — No, I do 
not think so ; you must remember these boatmen all had 
to stay at home to put them up, and if they had been at 
their own occupation they might have earned double or 
treble the money ; in fact I met one the other day who 
said he had only got 5^., and lost a pilot. 

4019. How long did it take you to put this pole up on 
the Prince of Wales's terrace P— Three days ; there were 
30 men employed, and not any too many. I have a 
drawing of uie pole here (producing the samcy 

4020. I see you mast-headed all your illustrious 
leaders? — Yes. 

4021. In fact you put up every Liberal leader on every 
one of these maerts P — Yes, it is the Liberal cabinet. 

4022. It was designed and carried out by you?— No. 

4023. Oh yes it was ; because I see here " Designed 
•* and carried out by W. H. Bamell " P— No, my name 
is J. P. Ramell. 

4024. Let us give credit where credit is due. I 
tliought I had to compliment you ?— I think that it ought 
to have been double the amount, and then it would not 
have been any too much. 

4025. Now the next item I see is a charge for Pookett 
Q3d34. 



and Houghan, 7^ ?— Yes ; Pockett is a gentleman, who 
resides in London^ and he came down specially, I think, 
and appHed to me for the money, as ne wanted to go 
back again, and I paid him one sovereign. 

4026. Where does he live ?— He has a house in Beach 
Street, but he lives in London ; becomes down and stops 
some little time every now and then ; a week or two at a 
time ; his home is in London. 

4027. He came down to vote P— -Yes. 

4028. And you gave him a sovereign to take him back ? 
— I gave him his return ticket. 

4029. Did you pay the sovereign before or after he 
voted P — I think it was the night before the election, but 
you will find it in the receipts. 

4030. Did he come to you the night before the elec- 
tion and ask you to pay him his fare ? — I think it was 
the night before the election, but I am not sure about it ; 
he wrote the receipt in my shop. 

4031. I see the receipt is, **Beceived of Mr. Ramell 
the sum of 11., for travelling expenses, May 18th ;'* that 
was the day of the election? — I do not exactly know 
when it was, but he wrote that in my shop. 

4032. It was for expenses from London to Deal and 
back ; but you say he lived here P — He has a house in 
Beach Street, at which he stops a week or two at a time, 
but he was not staying here at the time, and came down 
on purpose to vote. It is a summer-house that he has, 
and he was down here a few weeks ago and stopped, per- 
haps, three or four days, but not longer. 

4033. He did not come down actually upon the day ; 
he came down, did he not, a day or two before the 18th ? 
— That I do not know. 

4034. You just now said you thought you paid him the 
day before the election, and therefore probably he was 
in Deal the day before ? — I am not sure about it ; ho 
wrote that receipt out in my shop when he came to mo. 

4035. He came and told you that he had come down 
on purpose to vote, and wanted to be paid his expenses ? 
— Yes, he wanted to go back the same day. 

4036. Do you know whether he had voted or not when 
you paid him this sovereign ?— It was before the poll was 
opened. 

4037. Then Hougham, 6Z. ?— -Yes, here is the receipt 
(lianding the same to the Commissioners). He went to 
Lynn, in Norfolk. I think he belongs to the Foresters, 
and there was a meeting he had to attend. Mr. Pockett, 
I may say, is a pawnbroker in London. 

4038. I see the receipt is " 6L for travelling expenses 
*• from Lynn, in Norfolk, and back." — Yes. 

4039. That was paid also, I suppose, just before the 
election P — I sent a cheque to him at Lynn. 

4040. What made you fix upon the sum of 6Z. ? — 
Before he went away I asked him what the expense 
would be. He came and told me he was going, and told 
me what the expenses would be, 

4041. He said that was the railway fare there and 
back p— Yes. 

4042. You intended to pay him only his railway fare, 
and no more ? — Yes, that is alL 

4043. That was why the sum of 6Z. was fixed upon as 
being the railway fare there and back p — Yes. 

4044. There are some watchers put down here, 11^ 15«., 
how many watchers did you employ? — Is that my 
account? 

4045. Yes ? — I think that must mean other items as 
well. I recollect it was jiot watchers altogether, because 
there were one or two other items wiih it, although 
Mr. Edwards may only have put down that one item. 

4046. This was exactly what was handed in at the trial 
of the petitioner here by Mr. Edwards P — I think these 
two accounts together were sent in one bill ; there was 
one receipt for 26i. odd, but Mr. Edwards has got it 211. 
here. Watchers were included in that amoimt, but there 
was an amount paid to somiD other parties ; it waA not all 
for watchers. These two accounts ought to have been 
together. 

4047. Which two accounts?— The 16^. 10s. tfnd the 
11 Z. lbs. ; theteceipt went in for that all together. 

4048. Can you tell me how the total sum of 27/. 158. 
was expended P — I cannot exactly tell you now» because 
I do not appear to have got the receipt. These receipts 
have been all handed to Mr. Edwards, and he handed 
them back to me the other day, and I do not know 
whether any of them have gone. I know those two 
accounts went together, and they amounted to 26/. 
instead of 27/. 

4049i Tell me what sums you paid ?— I know we had 



J. P. RameU. 
8 Oct 1880. 



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SANDWICH ELECTXOK COHHI66IOK : 



J. p. BameU, Bome watohers to watch the large pole at the Priiice of 

Wales's Terrace. 

8 Oct 1880. 4050. How many watchers did you have ?— About six 

at a time ; only tiiey were off and on ; six at one part of 

the night, and six at another; because they would not 
stop afi night. They relieved each other. 

4051. How many sets of six were there ; two ? — Yes. 
The pole was fimshed upon Friday, so that there was 
Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night, and Monday 
night ; that was all. 

4052. These six people were to watch the pole ?— -At 
former elections we have often had the ropes cut, and so 
we had at this election ; do not you see ? 

4053. If you ask me, I do not particularly see ; at any 
rate, you had two sets of watchers ?— Even this time we 
had the ropes cut, and the poles pulled down, which I 
had to pay extra for out of my own pocket to have them 
put up again; and that is what we had the watchers 
for. 

4054. How much did you pay those watchers ; do you 
remember ? — I think it was 5^. each a night. 

4056. And for how many nights did they watch P— 
Four nights. 

4056. That would be IL a-piece P— Yes. 

4057. Thatiwould be 12Z., which accounts for tlie 
IIZ. lbs. and a little more P — I do not think it was that 
amount, but I cannot exactly say. 

4058. Now taking down the staffis 161 10s. How many 
men were employ^ to do that P — That is wrong also. 
The whole amount together was 26Z., I recollect. 

4059. How many men were employed to take the poles 
down P — I agreed with the men that they were to take 
the poles down at 5«. each, but I have not paid many of 
them, because when they took the poles down they did 
not bring the ropes back ; and I told them I sliould not 
pay them till they brought the ropes back. 

4060. Someone has told us that the ropes were con- 
sidered a perquisite to the persons who took them down p 
— I did not consider it so, and I do not think it right. I 
expected to get the best part back to help pay certain 
amounts that I spent myself. 

4061. As a matter of fact, I am afraid you did not get 
the ropes back P— I did not. Perhaps I may have got 
4 cwt. back, and that is all. 

4062. Were the 12 watchers mostly voters P — I expect 
the principal of them were, but I am not certain about 
that, because I do not know who they were, as I did not 
appoint them myself. 

4063. Can you give me the names of the people you 
employed to watch p — I cannot. I know Foyles was one. 
In fact he was the principal man, and we looked to him 
to get others. 

4064. Ho is a voter p— Yes. He was tiie one who 
had the arrangement of putting up this particular 
pole. 

4065. Then there is "Use of capstain, ground, and 
** materials, 8Z. 12s. ;" was that for putting up the 
poles p Did you use the capstain for putting up the 
poles ? — After giving the order to the boatmen to put up 
the poles, and supplying them with the poles, then the 
next day they brought me in an account for hire of 
ground, which I did not bargain for at all. Here is 
one receipt, ** For hire of Seaman's Hope Stage, South 
" Side, 2L" 

4066. Where is the Seaman's Hope Stage P— Just off 
here. 

4067. How many poles were put up there p — There 
were two stages belonging to two brothers, and I tliink 
there were four poles put upon them. 

4068. An open bit of ground, I suppose ?— Yes ; it is 
where the boats lie. 

4069. It is not used for anything at this moment, or 
at other ti^nes, but is a perfectly open piece of ground p 

It is their own ground, and they use it for their boats 

up to lie on. 

4070. They charged you 2/. for four days for four 
poles p— Yes ; they asked me 20/., a I got off pretty well 
I think. 

4071. You thought at any rate that 27. was enough P — 
I think I got off pretty well. 

4072. Perhaps you think now that 27. was too much P 
—I did not bargam for it at all. 

4073. Who is Mr. Caskell p — He is one of the owners. 

4074. He is a voter, I suppose ?— Yes. 

4075. That accounts for 27. out of the 87. 12s. What 
is the other 67. 12s. for?— I have got another receipt of 



27. from a Mr. TSash for the same thing, and I paid 
Fmnisof the "Fox." 

4076. How many poles were there upon Mr. Nash's 
ground p— Two. Finnia at the * * Fox '* I paid 27. 

' 4077. Was the rest of the 87. 128. for the same purpose, 
spent in the same way for hire of ground to put up the 
poles p — I expect it was. I cannot say just to a little ; 
but I can remember those three, and I have got the 
receipts. 

4078. Nash is a voter, I suppose P — Yes. 

4079. That accounts for about 1887. of the 2087. which 
you received p — Yes. 

4080. How was the remainder spent P— I have a receipt 
here of 257. for band. 

4081. Is this (lianditig a paper to the wiiness) the 
account that you sent to Mr. Edwards p — Yes. One or 
two of these are bills that were put in through me, and 
which are not mine. 

4082. I wiU go through them. Philip Finnis for rope, 
347. 7s. 3(7. ; did you pay that p— No. 

4083. George Finnis fbr rope, 327. 17s. 6J. ; did you 
pay that p — No. 

4084. B. Gibbons, 157. 19s. lid. P— That is not my 
aocoimt, it was merely given through me. 

4085. Pittock, 217. 15s. 6(7. P— That is not paid. 

4086. Redman, 77. Is. l|rf. p— That is not paid. 

4087. Thompson, 37. 2^•.^10^(7. ?— That is not paid. 

4088. Chittenden, 37. 10s. P^That is not one of mine, 
but put in through me. 

4089. Verrier, 17. 7s. M. P— That is not paid. 

4090. Clarabut, 77. 7s. 6(7. p— That is not paid. 

4091. Britten, 27. 2s. 2\d. ?— That is not paid. 

4092. Nash, 27. P— That is what I spoke about just 
now. 

4093. Webb, 77. ?— That is not paid. 

4094. Woodcock, 10s. ?— Not paid. 

4095. W. Ramell for making flags, 537. P— Yes ; my 
brother made all the flags, and the whole amount is only 
537. Every one of these flags, or nearly every one, was 
lettered, and you were asking about the price of letters 
this morning." I should think tliere were from 2,000 to 
3,000 letters painted on these flags, and that will give 
you a little idea of the work. I paid him 257. on 
account. 

4096. That is Mr. W. H. Bamell ?— Yes ; and here is 
the receipt. 

4097. Have you got the bill of your brother's, showing 
what he supplied for the 537. P — Mr. Edwards has, I have 
not. 

4098. We have not got it. Did you give it to 
Mr. Edwards P— -Yes. Here {producing a paper) is a list 
of all the bills that Mr. Edwards has, and they are not 
paid. 

4099. Your brother sent in an account for 537. P— Yes. 

4100. Did that account show in detail what was done 
for it ? — No, I think not ; it was for making flags, and 
it impossible to tell the number that was made. 

4101. Then, if I was to see it, it would tell me nothing P 
— What I recollect of it, it was so much for making 
flags. I think that was all. 

4102. That would tell me nothing, even if I saw it, 
would it ; how many flags did he make, do you know P 
—I should think from 300 to 400 ; quite that ; if I say 
between 300 and 400, it would be as near the mark as 
possible. 

4103. Did you order the flags from him ?— I ordered 
the stuff from the drapers ; I gave him orders to go and 
and get what he wanted, and there are the accounts 
from the drapers. 

4104. Wliat is your brother ? — ^A painter. 

4105. You gave him the stuffs to paint upon ? — ^Yes, I 
supplied hini with it. 

4106. Is the 537. for painting flags, and nothing 
else p — ]V{aking them and painting them. 

4507. Did Mr. Edwards tell you to give him that 
order for the flags p — No, ho gave me instructions to 
cany the matter out; but he did not tell me to give 
my brother an order ; he left it in my hands to do as I 
liked. 

4108. Did you tell your brother how many he was to 
make, or what order did you give him ? — 1 gave him 
instructions to go and get what stuff he wanted, and to 
make as many flags as he could, and as fast as he 
could, because our time was short, and we were obliged 
to do the best we could. 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



83 



4109. I Bee 25^ Las been paid on account; does 
Mr. Edwards dispute the remainder P — ^No, onlj he has 
not the money yet to pay; he does not dispute it 
at all. 

4110. Your brother is a voter, of course ?— Yes. 

4111. I forget what you said the charge was for 
every letter painted upon a flag ? — ^I did not say what 
the charge was, but you heard tMs morning dcL a letter, 
and it does not come to anything like that, because there 
were over 2,000 letters upon the different flags. There 
seemed to be a smile nt tiie amount when it was stated, 
but I considered it a very small sum, and if we had had 
to send to London for them we should have had to pay 
300Z. 

4112. You say you went and got the materials supplied 
to your brother, did you buy the materials in Deal ?— 
You have the draper's bills before you. 

4113. Baldwin, for example, 35L 10». ; have you got 
a bill from Baldwin showing how much was supplied 
for that 35i. 10s. P— Mr. Edwards has all the bills. 

4114. Did Mr. Baldwin's bill show what the money 
was for, or was it only a general charge of so much P — 
No, it showed what each stuff was per yard, and what 

"^quantity he had supplied. 

4115. Then we have Kingsford, 27. 8«. Sd. ; what is 
that P— That is for cord. 

4116. Also for the flogs P — Yes, for the flag poles. 

4117. BriFtow, 14L 10*. ; what is that ?— That is for 
the hire of the poles. 

4118. Francis, 9/. 10*?. ; what is that P—That is another 
draper's bOL 

4119. Dyason, 1/. 8s\ ; what is that P—That was for 
fine cord for the running" gear, I think. 

4120. All these bills you have paid p — Not what you 
are calling over now. 

4121. I mean Baldwin, Kingsford, Bnstow, Francis, 
and Dyason ? — No, none of those are paid. 

4122. ThenEalph, 19/. 18^. P—That is not my account, 
but it went through me, that is all. 

4123. All the figures I have given you here for the flag 
poles, the flag pole upon the E^rince of Wales terrace, 
the sum paid to Pockctt and Hougham, the sum paid 
for watchers, the sum paid for taking down the staffs and 
use of capst'iu, ground, and blocks, comes to 188/. 'k. ? — 
Yes. 

4124. And you received 208/. ?— Yes. 

4125. How was the rest of the money spent P — I have 
handed in a receipt for the band, 25/. 

4126. That makes 213/. 4». ; what was the band for P 
— ^To liven them up upon the election day. 

4127. Who told you to engage a band P— Mr. Edwards. 

4128. Do you say he told you to engage a band ? — 
Yes. 

4129. And you engaged a band for 25/. ? — Yes. 

4130. Was it a local band ?— No. 

4131. AVhero did you get it from? — ^It came from 
Marg^ie, and howl got it was this ; there was something 
going on there, and I sent up a man to see if they would 
be at liberty. I went over to Dover after one, but could 
not get one, and I understood that there would be some 
band at Margate available the next day, and I sent a man 
over after it. 

4132. Is 208/. all the money you received in connexion 
with the election? — ITo, that is all I received from 
Mr. Edwards, bat I received 36/. from Outwin. 

4133. When did you get that 36/. ? — Upon the morning 
of the election, I think it was. 

4134. What did you do with that money ? — I had it for 
the purpose of g^^-ing to nine different persons, and this 
(Juinding a p(fpor) is the list of the nine, and the amount 
that they had. 

4135. Seth Snoswell, of Princes Street, 5/. ?— Yes. 

4136. Erridge, of Middle Street, 5/.? — Yes, 123, 
Middle Street. 

4137. Do vou know his Christian name ? — I am not 
sure, but I think it is Bichard. 

4138. I will ask you to take this list back and add to 
it, if you can, out of the register the full names and 
addresses ? — I have given them to you all but that- one, 
I think. 

4139. No, there is Thompsett, Alfred Square ?— It is 
5, Alfred Square. 

4140. Then T. Whihnshurst, West Street, 3/., and 
F. Whilmshurst, Wellington Place, 3/. ?— Yes. 

4141. Then E. Mose, West Street, 31, and his son 3L? 
Yes. 



8 Oct 1880. 



4142. I see some got 5Z., others 4Z., and others 32. ?— •^. P. Ram: . 
Yes. 

4143. Did you have a conversation with each of them 
separately, and arrange with them what thejr were to 
have? — No, the last four I did not. Whilmshurst 
himself took the money and arranged with them. 

4144. I will take Mr. Snoswell, for example ; I suppose 
ou saw him and arranged that he was to have 5/. ? — 



Y( 



4145. Was that before the actual voting?— Yes. 

4146. I suppose that applies also to Erridge ; you saw' 
him and arranged with him that he was to have 5/. ? — 
Yes. 

4147. And Mr. Smith, of 96, High Street, who had 
only 4/. ? — He was to have 5/., only I had got an account 
agamst him. He really has had the 6L and I have only 
returned it aa 4/. 

4148. (Mr. Roll.) He had 4/., and a set-off of 1/. ?— 
He has got the other, because he had it in goods. 

4149. (Mr. Jeune.) He got money, or money's worth ? 
— Yes, money's worth. 

4150. Then Verstage, Griffin Street, 5Z. ; you arranged 
with him, I suppose, that he was to have 5/. ? — ^Yes. 

4151. And Thompsett, 5, Alfred Square; did you 
arrange that he was to have 5/. ? — Yes. 

4152. The other four were arranged for together p — 
Yes, they were to have the other money when it was 
got, but they could not get any more. They. were each 
to have 5/. 

4158. When it could be got p— Yes. 

4154. I am.afraid they will have to wait sometime for 
it. Is that aU the money you received ?— Yes, every 
farthing. I should like to say this : I have had a good 
deal to do with elections formerly, but I liave never 
found it so difficult a matter in canvassing as I have 
done this year, and I lay it all to this Ballot Act. At 
one time we could always get a promise, or not a 
promise, so as to know what we were about, but now 
when you go to a man's house they will say, **What 
** are you going to give us, so-and-so has offered me 
** such an amoimt, cannot you do it?" 

4155. Were you at all afraid, after having promised 
this money, that after all they^might vote the other side ? 
— No, not the parties I got ; I thought I could depend 
upon them. I only got those I could rely upon. 

4156. You think as a rule the man who is promised 
money votes the way he has promised to vote ? — I am 
afraid this time it was not so. 

4157. Do you think they ever take money from both 
sides ? — I do not think ; I know it. 

4158. If it is doubtful whether they will vote the way 
they have promised, and if there is a chance of their 
taking money from both sides, do you think it is less 
worth while than it was to bribe ?— You must do it for 
the best ; it is a risk. 

4159. You think it is worth doing upon the diance of 
a man's voting the way you mean him to vote P — It is a 
very bad plan I know. In old times they used to bril>e 
certainly almost to the same extent as now, only in a 
different way. In old times they would give it in large 
sums like 20/., 30/., and 50/., but now you see it is a 
general thing, and you can hardly go to a house without 
their saying, " What are we to have." 

4160. You think the effect of the ballot is that it is 
necessary to bribe more persons than used to be the 
case p — I know it has spoilt Deal. 

4161. In your experience do most people in this 
constituency expect something or another p — Yes, now 
they do. 

4162. What shotdd you say, 9 out of every 10 would 
like to get something? — No, I do not go so far as that, 
but I would say 6 out of every 10 do. 

4163. They would expect to get something ? — Yes. 

4164. If there is something going they would like to 
have their share P — Yes, and naturally enough too, one 
should have it as well as another. 

4165. Supposing there was money on one side and 
not upon the other, I suppose there would be very little 
chance for the side who did not spend money? — Most 
decidedly. 

4166. With regard to this election, do you think, 
roughly speaking, about the same amount of money 
was spent on both sides p — No, we did not go into it so 
deep as they did, because we could not get it. 

4167. Do you think that the result of the election was 
determined by the greater amount of money spent 
upon the one side than on the otiier? — Yes, decidedly. 



L2 

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84 



SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



./. P. RamelL 4168. Do yoti ihink if you had had another l,000i. 

' placed at your disposal, with which yon cotild have done 

8 Oct. 1880. what you liked, that you could have carried the elec- 

tionP — No, and I will teU you for why. There was a 

very wise Iriok, I think, played up on the part of the Con- 
servatives ; they gave the parties to understand that if 
they did not return a CJonservative this time they would 
not have a chance again, because they would not bring 
one down, and that, I thmk, had a great influence with 
them. 

• 4169. You thought that told P— Yes, it was a very 
good trick, and I give them credit for it. 

4170. Of course it would interest almost everybody 
here P — ^Yes, most decidedly. Even our people themselves 
said, **We may as well give them a turn over this 
" time." 

4171. Even a good many of the Liberals, I suppose, 
thought it would be just as well to have a contest pretty 

* often ? — Yes, most decidedly. 

4172. A good many people at this election got some- 
thing out of it one way or the other ? — Yes. 

4173. There were the people who got money direct ; 



there were the shopkeepers, who sold something ; there 
were the people who put ap the flags, and the people 
who took them down again ; there were the publicans, 
the messengers, the clerks, and the relations of the 
messengers ; one way or another a good many people 
got something out of the election P — Yes, almost every- 
body, one way or another. 

4174. That is really what I was going to ask yon ; 
how many people do you think there are in Sandwich 
and Deal that did not somehow or other get something 
out of the election p — I cannot say anything about 
Sandwich. 

4175. I mean Dealp — I should think, taking Deal, 
that there would not be more than 300 tiiat did not ^et 
something of it, either directly or indirectly, and I thmk 
that is a correct statement. 

4176. (Mr, Turner.) Yon mean of course 300 voters P 
—Yes. 

4177. (Mr. Holl.) You canvassed a good deal P — ^Yes. 

4178. And you had a good deal of opportunity of 
judging of the matters you have been tdling us of P— 
Yes. 



H. Speart. 



IIenby Speabs sworn and examined. 



4179. {Mr. Holl.) Have you a public-house p— Yes. 

4180. What is the name of the house you keepP — 
The " Antwerp." 

4181. Is that nearly opposite the pier P — Yes. 

4182. You received a sum of money, I think, from 
Mr. Olds P— Yes. 

4183. For the purpose of distribution amongst some 
of the voters P — Yes, I did. 

4184. How much did you receive P — 108^. 

4185. Have you made out a list of the people amongst 
whom you disfaibuted it P — Yes, that is the list (handuig 
a paper) ; you will see each name in the poll book. 
They are all needy people. 

4186. I will ask you to do this ; you have put down 
the Christian name and surname, but I will get you to 
put in a third column the addresses of each of these 
persons, and in a fourth column how much you gave to 
each P— I can do it if I have a poll book to take the 
addresses off. 

4187. We will go on with this now, and you can let 
us have the list complete to-morrow. Do you know 
how much you gave to each P — 3/. each ; they shared all 
alike. 

4188. I see there are 36 of them P— Yes. 

4189. You paid 36 different men P— Yes. 

4190. And gave them 3^. each P— Yes. 

4191. Making altogether 108/. P--Yes ; and that was 
the amount of money I received. 

4192. When did you pay them P— I paid them after 
they had given their votes. 

4193. Had you arranged beforehand with them P — Not 
all, just a few I had the day before. 



4194. You had told them that, if they would vote for 
you, you would give them so much P — Yes ; they said, 
** Times are hard ; " and I said, ** We will do what we 
" can for you." 

4195. I suppose you did that with all of them, you 
told them you would give them something P — Yes, all 
those 36 ; any others I know nothing about 

4196. You told each of these 36 that you would do 
what you could for them if they voted for your side p — 
Yes. 

4197. And after they voted you gave them each 3^ 
apiece p— Yes. 

4198. Is that all the money you received P — No; I 
received 61. from Mr. Olds as canvasser. 

4199. You were one of the canvassers ? — Yes. 

4200. Did you do 'any canvassing? — Yes, I went 
round several days for more than a fortnight, I should 
think two or three hours daily. 

4201. Did you keep the 6L for yourself or distribute 
any of itp — I kept it for myself, for my expenses. 

4202. You did not pay any of that to anyone P — No, I 
spent that an J a little more out of my own pocket. 

4203. Beyond the 108Z. that you got from Mr. Olds, 
and 6Z. that you got for yourself as canvasser, did you 
receive any other moneys from anyone in connection 
with the election P — I received bU wr the room in my 
houJBe. 

4204. Your house was taken P— Yes. 

4205. Beyond those three sums did you receive any- 
thing more P — No, not one halfpenny. 

4206. Did you pay anything to anyone beyond this 
108L P— No. 



i?. W. Jonef. 



BoBSBT WiLLiAH JoNBS swom and examined. 



4207. (Mr. Timier.) What are you P— A licensed 
victualler. 

4208. What is your house P — The "Sir Sidney 
Smith." 

4209. Did you receive any money from Mr. Olds P — 
Yes. 

4210. How muchp — 5Z. for the use of my room, 6Z. 
as a paid canvasser, and 392. for distribution amongst 
the voters. 

4211. When did you receive 39Z. P— It might be about 
two days before tiie election ; it would be the 16th or 
17th, but I cannot say exactly. 

4212. Did you distribute it P— Yes. 

4213. Have you got any paper showing how you dis- 
tributed it, and when ? — Yes (producing a ^per), here is 
a list of the names, addresses, and occupations. 

4214. You have not given the sums here ? — They had 
3Z. a piece. 

4215. There are onlv 11 here, which would make 33Z. P 
— I returned 6/., and here is a receipt for it (hcmding a 
paper), 

4216. This is a receipt from Mr. Olds p— Yes. 

4217. You gave each of these 11 persons 32. for their 
vote?— Yes. 



4218. At the election P— Yes. 

4219. Was that on a promise by them to vQte for 
Mr. 0. Roberts?— Yes. 

4220. Are these sums of 5Z., 6L, and 33Z. all that you 
had P — Yes, every penny. 

4221. From anybody in connection with the election? 
—Yes. 

4222. That is all that you ]paid out of the 89Z. ?— Yes ; 
I returned 6/., which makes it up. 

4223. Did you return the 62. to Mr. Olds upon the 
20th May, tiie day of this receipt ?— Yes. 

4224. What did you do as a canvasser P — I canvassed 
the different people round my neighbourhood wherever 
I knew them. 

4225. How many days about P — Bight along from the 
first part of the election to the end of it. 

4226. You kept the 62. paid to you as oanyasser? — 
Yes, for personal expenses. 

4227. You put that into your own pocket P — ^Yes. 

4228. (Mr. Holl.) Have you any canvass book or list P 
— No further list than that I have produced. 

4229. When did you make out this list ?— Two days 
ago. 



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4280. At ihe time yon oanvaAsed did you keep any 
list of the people you oaavassed ?— No ; I am well known 
about the neighbourhood, and there was no neceBsity for 
that 

4231. Did you make out this list from any memo- 
randum or from your memory P — ^From my memory. 



4232. (Mr, Turner.) Had you any directions as to the 
particular men you were to go to and pay this money ? — 
No, I had no particular directions as to how to distribute 
the money. 

4238. I suppose you told Mr. Olds how many men 
you had about ? — Yes. 



/?. IT. Joiui. 
8 Oct. 1880. 



Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o'clock. 



FIFTH DAY. 



Saturday, 9tli October 1880. 



9 Oct. 1880. 



(Mr. Thomas Bent) May I be allowed to make a 
statement. Mr. Olds, in his evidence, is represented in 
the ** Canterbury Press " and in the ** Deal Mercury " 
to have said that I wanted 60i. for my services; the 
" Canterbury Press " says 60Z. and the " Deal Mercury *' 
50Z., but botii statements are false. 

{Mr. Jeune.) Are you the Deal bill poster ? 



{Mr. Thomas Bent) Yes; I wish to make the statement 
in vindication of my character, because I do not wish 
anything to go false against me, and both statements 
are false. 

{Mr. Moll.) Very well ; we will take your evidence 
now. 



Thomas Bent sworn and examined. 



T. Bent 



4234. {Mr. JeuTie!) You are a bill poster at Deal ? — 
Yes. 

4235. Is it the case that you were the only person 
who posted bills in Deal P Have you a monopoly ? — Yes, 
up to this last month or two I had. 

4236. You are the only person who carries on that 
business in Deal. Have you got a large number of 
stations and places upon which to put bills ? — Yes. 

4237. Hoardings, and things of that kind P— Yes. 

4238. Nobody else has hoardings in Deal except you ? 
— No, not large hoardings ; no one has a right to put 
them on but myself. I lent one. 

4239. There is no one carrying on the same business 
that has hoardings as well as you P — No ; I had a man 
with me 12 months, and he has oommenced two months 
ago. 

4240. At the time of this election there was no one 
carrying on the same business who had hoardings as 
well as you P — No, I have been the bill poster for 15 
years in DeaL 

4241. Do you cany on your business at Walmer and 
DealP — Yes. I have stations in Walmer and Upper 
DeaL 

4242. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Olds P — 
No, not any. 

4243. Can you tell me about how many stations you 
have got in Deal and Walmer P — ^I should think 26 or 27. 

4244. I suppose you have pretty nearly all the stations 
that can be got P — Yes. 

4245. I suppose many of them are very good stations 
for bills P — They are. I have got as good stations as 
any town in Kent, considering the size of the town. 

4246. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Edwin 
Hughes about it P — Yes. 

4247. You are a Liberal in politics, are not you P — 
Yes. 

4248. What was the effect of your conversation with 
Mr. Hughes ; did he want to take your station P — I made 
an arrangement with Mr. Hughes that he was to have 
part of my stations untU the end of May for so much 
money, and I wae to post the bills at so much per 100. 

4249. How manv of your stations was he to have P — 
A part of all of them, and I was id post the bills, and 
not one bill, either one side or the other, was to be 
covered up by any man. 

4250. Did he want to take all your stations P — No, he 
did not want to take them all. 

4251. He did not ask you for all P— No. 

4252. And you did not refuse to let him have all P — 
No, I did tibe work for both sides. 

4253. There was never an application by Mr. Hughes 
to have all your stations P — No, not any. 

4254. He came and asked, and you said he might have 
part, and you were to do the postmg P — Yes. 

4255. Part of each station P— Yes, part of each station, 
whatever there might be. 



4256. So that there would be absolutely equality be- 
tween the one side and the other P — ^Yes, exactly. 

4257. Mr. Edwin Hughes seems to have said this 
before the judges, " There was only one bill sticker in 
** Deal, and he is a Liberal ; I wanted to hire from him 
" his protected stations, but he would not let me have 
'* them"? — It is no such thing. 

4258. That does not represent the case ?— No. 

4259. In fact, all that he wanted to have you were 
willing to let him have P — Yes, and to do the work as I 
had done it before ; in fact, the first bills that came out 
were sent to me, and no question was asked whatever, 
and I posted them. 

4260. What arrangement was made eventually with 
Mr. Hughes P — I made an arrangement with Mr. Hughes 
that I was to have 71. lOs, for the stations to the end of 
May, that is, part of the stations, and to post the bills 
at lOa. per 100, or I offered to do the whole of it for 20L, 
but he said, ** No, your bill will come to more than that, 
'* I know, by the work we shall have ; ** my bill did not 
come to 20L, but he said, '* We will make it 202.," and 
he gave me an order to get my men and to come and 
dear the walls ihe day after the election. 

4261. What have you had altogether P— 202. exactly. 

4262. Did you have any oonyersation with Mr. Olds P 
— ^No, not any. 

4263. So that it is not the case/that you wanted 60Z. 
for your services P — ^No, and that is why X have come to 
explain it this morning. 

4264. Or 50Z. P— No, or 502. ; 20L is what I had. 

4265. Are your stations pretty well scattered over 
Deal and Walmer P — Yes. 

4266. Have you ever posted bills at a previous elec- 
tion P — Yes, I have been posting the last 15 years, and I 
tiiink I have done it three timeis before. 

4267. Then you posted in 1874 P— Yes. 

4268. Did you post for both sides in the same way P — 
Yes, and I liad the same terms as to the hire of the 
stationa I had 7Z. 10^. for the use of part of the stations, 
and I was to do the posting, but if they wanted their 
own men to go and post upon the stations they were at 
liberty to do so. 

4269. You asked the same terms for this election as 
you had claimed and got before p — Yes, just the same. 

4270. In 1874, did each side pay you the same amount P 
— One side would have more bills than another. 

4271. It was according to the number of their bills P — 
Yes. 

4272. You were to have so much a 100 for posting P — 
Yes. 

4273. At this election you posted for both sides P — 
Yes. * 

4274. Did you get the same sum from each side P — I 
did not have so much from Sir Julian Goldsmid as from 
the other side. 

4275. What did he give you P— I have not had any yet. 



L 3 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



T.Bent 4276. What is yonr claim P— Only UZ. 

4277. Who engaged you to do the bill posting on Sir 

9 Oct. 1880. Julian's side ?— Mr. Edwards ; he called in, and said he 

would send the biUs down, and that we would go on the 

same as before. 

4278. I must say it seems to me a very legitimate ex- 
penditure, and I hope you will be paid ? — I hope so ; 
people have money for doing nothing, and those who do 

' the work get nothing sometimes. 

4279. At this election there were a large number of 
biQs posted, were there not, in and upon pubHc-houses P 
—Yes, public-houses. 

4280: Mr. Edwin Hughes haa put it forward that he 
was obliged to take all these public-houses because he 
could not get his bills posted elsewhere ? — That is false ; 
the first bills the Conservatives had were sent to me, 
and no question was asked as to whether I would post 
them or not, and I did post them, and so I should if they 
had gone on till now. 

4281. There were a considerable number of biUs 
posted in the windows of public-houses ? — Yes, and there 
always is. 

4282. And outside public-houses as well ?— Yes, out- 
side as well. 



4288. Was it the same in 1874 P— Yes, just about the 
same ; but I do not know that they hired public-houses 
then ; I do not think they did. 

4284. Were there as many bills in 1874, do you think, 
posted in the windows of public-houses as there were at 
this last election ? — There were more in 1874 than there 
were at this election, because it lasted longer. 

4285. You are right ; were the bills on your stations 
torn down and disfigured?— Once. 

4286. Only once ?— Yes, and only just one or two ; 
nothing worth speaking of. 

4287. Did you employ anybody to watch them p — No, 
myself and my man were out pretty well all night some- 
times at work. 

4288. Posting ?— Yes, I have been out till 12 o'clock 
on Saturday night. 

4289. You did not employ anybody specially to watch 
your stations P — No. 

4290. I suppose you thought it was not absolutely 
necessary to employ anybody P — No, not for that 
purpose. 



W. F. Spears. 



William Fbost Speabs sworn and examined. 



4291. (Mr. Holl.) We see that you had a large amount 
for erecting poles ? — Yes. * 

4292. Have you any list of the sums that you received P 
—No. 

4293. No account or memorandum at all ? — No, I left 
it all to Mr. Hughes. 

4294. Is that Mr. Edwin Hughes ?— Yes, the agent. 

4295. Tell me how it was you came to erect these 
poles ; from whom did you get instructions to do it ? — I 
was a volunteer to Mr. Hughes. 

4296. You went to Mr. Hughes ?— Yes. 

4297. Tell us what passed ? — People came up when I 
was there, and asked to put poles up the same as before, 
for the purpose of hanging flags when wanted, and I 
volunteered my services to Mr. Hughes to go and 
superintend the doing of it. 

4298. What did he tell you?— He told me to go round 
and see where they were wanted, which I did, and he 
asked me what I thought a fair price. I told hijn I did 
know, but the parties up there said 308. a pole, and 8 or 
10 men to each pole, which I paid, 

4299. Eight or ten men to each pole?— Yes, it might 
be less, and sometimes might be more. 

4300. How many did you erect altogether ?— I could 
not tell you. 

4301. Did you tell Mr. Hughes what you have told 
us ?— Yes. 

4302. What did he say?— He says, **That is right 
enough." 

4303. Did he tell you to erect them ?— Yes, and I done 
according, and got the people according. 

4304. How many did you erect altogether, do you 
think ?— Well, I could not tell, indeed. 

4305. About 50, 60, or 100 would it be, or how many ? 
— ^It is no use my saying, because I do not know ; Mr. 
Hughes knows ; he paid the money. 

4306. That does not tell us the number of poles ; did 
you give Mr. Hughes particulars of the number you 
erected ? — Yes, and I had the money and paid them. 

4307. Did you give Mr. Hughes particulars when he 
paid you the money ? — Yes, ho wanted every item as to 
who it was going to be paid to. 

4308. Did you give him particulars of all the poles 
that you had erected, and of the men you had employed ? 
— I did not give him the names of anybody ; there were 
so many poles, and so much money, and I had a cheque 
for the money, and I went to the bank and got the 
cash, and gave it to the men. If I had known there was 
to be anything like this I would have kept an accoimt of 
tlie poles, but I did not give the thing a thought. Mr. 
Hughes has got the number, and has got the money that 
was paid, and I gave every man every shilling that was 
earned. 

4309. Cannot you tell me how many poles you did 
erect p— I cannot indeed. 

4310. Give it to me as nearly as you can p — I could 
not, it is no use my telling a falsehood. 

4311. You can tell us whether it was 50, 60, or 100 P 
— No ; I can tell you Mr. Hughes paid for the poles, 
and he can teU you better than I can. 



4312. We want to know what you can tell us, because 
we shall ask Mr. Hughes by-and-bye. I see there are a 
number of other men connected with poles. Ralph, 
11, 168. ; Licence 11. ISs. ; Worrels y. Is. lOd. ; Baxter 
11, 10s. ; did you receive that money, or was it paid to 
them direct P — All the money I received from Mr. Hughes 
I gave to the boatmen. 

4313. Besides the moneys that you have put down as 
having received in your own name, there are other sums 
put down as being paid to Balph, Licence, Worrels, 
and Baxter, did you pay those men p — No. 

4314. That money, did it not pass through your 
hands ? — No. 

4315. That went to them direct P— Yes, it did not pass 
through my hands. 

4316. In round numbers, I find paid to yourself 135^ 
or 1402. — would that be about right P — I never took no 
account. 

4317. As near as you can remember would it be about 
the sum P — I should think it would be quite that. I first 
of all got a cheque for 9Z., and I went to the bank and 
got the money, and the people shared it, 8 or 10 men to 
each pole. 

4318. You think 135Z. or 140Z. would about represent 
what you had yourself to distribute for the erection of 
poles ? — I daresay it was quite that, but I have nothing 
to go by, you see, at all. I know there was a^ great 
quantity of poles, and that is all I can teU you. 

4319. Besides that you had 41/. for taking down poles, 
and 20/. for yourself ?— I had 40/. and 20/. for myself. 

4320. What was the 20/. for yourself P — For running 
about a fortnight, and superintending everything. 

4321. Did you have no portion of the money that you 
received previously P — My brother gave me 6/. the first 
start off. 

4322. Is that Henry Spears ?— Yes, and he signed his 
name for it. 

4323. When you went at diJQferent times to get these 
various sums, such as 9/., 13/. 10s., 7/. 10^., 30/., 9/., 
24/., and so forth, you took your share, I suppose p — 
No, not a farthing ; not a glass of beer. 

4324. Do I understand, in regard to these sums, that 
you received from time to time, amounting to 135/. or 
140/., you took no share of it yourself at all P — No, not 
one halfpenny. 

4325. Had you 'any arrangement with Mr. Hughes 
that he should pay you separately p — No. 

4326. Were you engaged in erecting these poles? — 



4327. Why should not you have taken your share out 
of the money as you from time to time received it P — 
Because I superintended the other people, and my 
brother gave me 6/. to superintend, and I took it and did 
superintend. I never knew that I was going to have a 
farthing until after the election was all over and done 
with, and then Mr. Hughes said, ** For your hard work 
** I shall make you a present of 20/.," and I took it. 

4328. Was that after the election P— Yes, after it waa 
all done with, two days afterwards. 

4329. The 135/. or 140/. that you are put down as. 
having received in addition to other money paid to other 



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people would represent SOa. a-pieoe for 100 poles P— Yes, 
I daresay. 

4330. Did yon erect as many as ^, do yon think P — 
Bless my sonl and body, all that is paid for were 
erected, and I do not mow whether there were 50 
or 150. 

4331. That is not not an answer to my question ; I 
asked you whether you will say that you erected more 
than 50 P — I must tell you the same as I said before, 
I could not say ; all I can tell you is there were a great 
number. 

4332. You must know to some extent whether there 
were 50 or 100 P — I think it would be nigher two fifties 
than one. 

4333. You see you do know to some extent P— I tell 
Tou I have no idea ; if I had known anything of this 
kind was coming I would haye kept an account. 

4334. You think it was nigher 100 th^ 50 ?— Yes. 

4335. I will not take the largest of the x>oles, any ex- 
ceptional ones, but what would be the average length of 
the ordinary poles you put up p— Some of them were 
70 feet high. 

4336. I asked you not to take the exceptional ones ; 
what was the average length P — They would be on an 
average about 50 feet, I should think. 

4337. Was it a single pole ?— No, that would have two- 
spliced on. 

4338. Were they all two-spliced p— No, not all. 

4339. What was the average height, in most cases did 
you have two poles spliced or one polep — Some was 
one and spme were two. 

4340. Which were there most of? — I should t^inlr 
there were most of two-spliced on. 

4341. More than half, you think ?— Yes. 

4342. You say the average height would be about 
50 feet P — ^Yes, I should think so. 

4343. I suppose you let these poles into the ground P 
—Yes. 

4344. How many feet?— About 6 or 7 feet. 

4345. You dug a hole 6 or 7 feet deep, then put the 
pole in, and rammed it down to keep it up ? — Yes. 

4340. The ordinary poles would not have any other 
support to them, except the support from being buried 
6 or 7 feet deep ? — We were obliged to have some stays 
to them. 

4347. To every pole ? — I will not say to every pole. 

4348. Did you have any st^ to any of them, except 
the exceptionally tall ones P — ^Yes. 

4349. Just think for a moment ; will you undertake to 
say there were 20 which had stays ? — I daresay there 
were. 

4350. It is not a question of daresay ; tell me as near 
as you can remember, whether you will undertake to say 
positively that you did have stays to .as many as 20 of 
them P — I do not know, I am sure ; I do not want to say 
anything wrong, and there is no use in saying that I do 
not know. 

4351. We want you to sav what is right; we only 
want you to tell us exactly wnat you know ; you see you 
erected these only two or three months ago, and surely 
you must remember whether there were 50 or 100 of 
them, and whether the majority had stays to them, or 
whether the majority were merely let into the ground 
6 or 7 feet, and supported by the ground ?— I should say 
there were 20. 

4352. About 20, you think P— Yes. 

4353. Of course, I not expect you to tell me within 
one or two, but teU me as nearly as you can remember ; 
with regard to the other poles, where you had not stays, 
and which were 50 feet high, do you mean to say you 
required eight men to put in each poll ? — Yes, they 
wanted fetohing out of the store, and they wanted carry- 
ing up to the beach. 

4354. Did it take eight men to carry a scaffold pole 
50 feet long ? — No, perhaps, it might teko about four, 
but I did not stand at l^t, if anyone was there ; 
everyone wanted to earn a shilling. 

4355. Most people who have lived to the age that we 
have, have seen scaffold poles erected 50 feet nigh, and 
and they do not want more than two or three men at the 
outside P— Very true. 

4356. Why did you want eight p — Because the people 
wanted something to eat. 

4357. You wanted, in point of fact, to give employment 
to as many as you could P — Yes. 



9 Oct. 1880. 



4358. Did yon have any payments made by cheques; W. JF. S^ean, 
—Yes. 

4359. Not in cash ?— No. 

4360. Was it all by cheques ?— I think I received onoe 
a little money to pay when it was overtime ; only onoe to 
the best of my recollection ; with that exception, it was 
aU cheques, which I took to the bank and got the 
money. 

4361. I think you are right. I think the bank book 
shows that your payments were all by cheque. I see 
there are consideraole sums to Fritehard for cord^^, 
6Z. 14«. lOd, and 22Z. 6«. 4d., did that pass through your 
hands ; did you buy the cordage ? — Yes. I went down 
to Pritohard and ordered it, and let the people have it. 

4362. Did you pay for it, or was he paid direct? — I 
I did not pay for it. I had to sign the bill. 

4363. (Mr. Jevkne) What was the first cheque you had 
from Mr. Hughes P — To the best of my recollection, I 
think it was 9^. 

4364. Was that drawn upon the National Provincial 
Bank heire P — ^I never notic^ the cheques ; all I know 
is I took them into the bank, and Mr. Spain gave me 
the money. I never noticed what bank they were 
upon. • 

4365. The first cheque does not appear to have been 
entered*" in the pass-book; I see ** Spears, No. 2, 
71 Z. 10«." There seems to be no No. 1 to you, or if 
there was it is not entered here ? I did not notice what 
bank they were upon. I took the cheque to the bank, 
and laid it down, and they gave me the money, that is 
all I know. 

4366. Might the first cheque have been for 13^. 10«. p 
—No. 

4367. You are sure it was 9Z. P — I am almost sore. • I 
would not be positive, and why I am sure of it is that 
there were six poles put up, and 65 people to put them 
up, so that I think the first cheque I drew was 9Z., to 
pay 65 people. 

4368. That was 10 J men to a pole ?— Yes ; and they 
shared something Hke 2a. %d. or 2«. 9rf each, to the best 
of my recollection. 

4369. {^r. Holl.) It would be more than that, if it 
was 13/. 10s, P — I cannot be sure, but I am almost cer- 
tain it was 91. for six pol^ at first, and there were 65 
men to share the money. I recollect that very well. 

4370. {Mr. Jeunc.) Your second cheque appears to 
have been for 71. 10«. ? — I would not answer for that ; all 
the money I received was shared by the men ; nothing 
stuck to my fingers. 

4371. You say that you had one payment in cash ? — I 
am almost sure I had, but I do not know the amount ; 
it was a small amount ; I am almost sure of it, but some- 
times I got half tight, and cannot recollect. 

4372. The poles were hired ?— Not that I am aware of. 

4373. (Mr. Roll.) These sums that you were paid 
were simply for erecting P — Yes, putting them up. I 
never paid anything for them. We had got a lot of 
masts upon the beach, and Mr. Denne, I believe, lent 
Mr. Hughes poles from his stores, and what we wanted 
we went and fetehed. 

4374. They were scaffold poles, I believe P — Yes. 

4375. You say for the first six erected you had 65 
men ? — Yes. 

4376. Sixty-five different men ?— Yes. 

4377. Or did you have the same men to each pole ? — 
No, all different ; loafers along the beach ; bricklayers, 
boatmen, and anybody who came along; they all 
joined in. 

4378. You let as many join in as liked ? — ^It did not 
matter to me. I did not care. I liked to see everybody 
get a shilling if I could. There ajce the people on the 
beach, and everybody can go and inquire of them. 

4379. How long did it take 10 men to erect one of these 
poles P — Perliaps it would take a couple of hours ; as 
fast as you very often dig the beach it fills up again ; you 
are obliged to make a big hole to put them in. 

4380. You would not have more than two men to dig 
at a time P — There were some down chucking it up to 
others to chuck it away again ; the beach runs in so it is 
not like earth. 

4381. You say you had 10 men to each pole ?— I do 
not say to every pole ; from eight to ten, and to some 
poles there might not be above seven. The reason why 
we had so many more was this — we had got a good many 
poles up, and Mr. Hughes said he thought we had 
sufficient; but when these others turned up, that is, 
when Sir Julian Goldsmid came down, they put poles 



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W. F. Spean. 
9 Oct. 1880. 



before ours, and by George we were obliged to pnt poles 
before theirs. 

4382. How many did you erect before Sir Julian 
oame down, 50, would you say ? — I cannot say. I would 
if I could, because it makes no difference to me how 
many there were, but I cannot tell you. 

4383. I see you very soon got as much as 50^. or 601. ? 
— Yes ; and when you come to get 200 or 300 people 
putting them up, it soon runs up. 

4384. You had put up a good many before Sir Julian 
Ooldsmid came down ? — ^Yes, a good tew. 

4385. And then you put up more ? — Yes, because the 
men were all mad, saying ttiat all our poles were shut 
out. 

4386. (Mr, Jeune.) Did Mr. Hughes "put any check 
uponyou, or let you put up as many as you pleased ? — 
Mr. Hughes wanted to know about every one that was 
put up — bless you, he is a very particular man. 

4387. .When you began to put some more up you 
went and got Mr. Hughes* leave to do it? — Yes, 
decidedly, I never did anything without asking him, 
and if anybodv went for a shilling for a pole he would 
never get it unless I was there and saw it done. 

4388. He knew about your putting up every one of 
the poles ? — Yes. 

4389. And sanctioned your doing ifc? — Yes, he asked 
whether I thought it At to be there, and such like, and 
if I said, "Yes," it was done, and if I said "No," it 
was not done. 

4390. Did you ever say " No " P— Yes, plenty of times, 
there are six or seven now holding out for money for 
poles, but I said "1 had never ordered them, and 
" whoever had ordered them they must go to them for 
*' the money," but they never have been paid. 

4391. (Mr, Holl. ) I see besides those that you put up 
there were a good many put up by other people ? — That 
I will not answer for. 

4392. I see besides the money mentioned as being 
paid to you, 135Z., or 140Z., there is a flagpole at the 
North end ; did you put that up ? — There were a good 
many iJong there, 

4393. There is a "Flagpole, North End, IZ. 5«."?— 
Whereabouts was that ? 

4394. I cannot tell you P — I never paid IZ. 5«. for a 
pole. I paid IL 10«. 

4395. If there was IZ. ba. paid for a flagpole at the 
North End that must have been in addition to what you 
put up ? — ^Yes. 

4396. Then I see, "Kynaston, 3 poles," and 
" Erridge, 3 flagstaffis, 4Z. 10«.," did you put them up ? — 
Yes, Erridges* was put up, and I paid for them. 

4397. Then "J. Wise, two poles " P—Yes, I paid for 
Wise's two. 

4398. You received a great deal more money than the 
135Z., or 140Z., if you received these sumsP — ^I told you 
I could not say. 

4399. Then there is a pole at the " Saracen's Head," 
and one at the Shipping Yard, and one at the Esplanade, 
one at Middle Beach, one at Deal Castle, one at North 
End, and there are sums paid to Ealph, Licence, and 
Worrels ? — All I paid was IZ. lOs, a pole ; I know 
nothing about anyuiing else. 

4400. Did vou put up these poles at the Esplanade, 
]\nddle Beacn, Deal Castle, and did you pay Ealph 
IZ. 16«. P— All I put up I paid IZ. 10«. a pole for, I do 
not think I paid under IZ. 10#. or over IZ. 10«., I did not 
pay a shilling more. 

4401. Can you tell me whether these sums that are 
^put down to Ealph IZ. 16., Licence IZ. 18«., Baxter 

IZ. 10/»., Kynaston, flagstaff, 3Z. 15«., were moneys paid 
to 3 ou, or were they paid direct to the men whose 
names I have read ? — They must have been paid to the 
men. 

4402. In addition to what you spent P — Yes, it must 
be. 

4403. Including these sums, and the 20Z. that you had 
for yourself, I see that the amount paid for the pole and 
erecting the poles comes to 250Z. P— I daresay it does. 

4404. That is including the 40Z. you had for taking 
down, and the 20Z. tbat you had for yourself, it comes 
to 250Z. P— Most probably it would. The 40Z. that I 
had after the election was shared with 180 men, 4«. Bd. 
each. 

4405. How many people do you think you employed 
altogether to put up the poles P— I could not tell you. 

4406. Let us get at it as noar as we oan^I do not 



want you to guess — ^yon say for the first six poles you 
had 66 people p — Yes. 

4407. And afterwards you say you had an average of 
about eight people per pole, were they generally the 
same people or different people P— No, different people — 
anybody that came along. 

4408. I suppose in regard to a good many of the poles 
the same people would come and help p — I do not know 
whether they helped or not. 

4409. Do you think that altogether you employed in 
putting up the poles as many as 200 or 300 people P— I 
do not know at alL 

4410. Would it be nearer to 200 than 800 P-^It would 
be nearest to 200. 

4411. Two hundred people that you employed at 
different times in putting up these poles ?— Yes. 

4412. And different people P—Yes, different people. 

4413. You say the 40Z. you had for taking down you 
shared amongst how many people p— 180, that is Deal 
and Walmer Eoad, and they shared 4«. 5oZ. apiece, and 
th^y gave me 5«. for myself what was over. They 
reckoned it up, and they made out that 5«. was over, and 
they said, " Bill, you may take that." 

4414. When you say they shared it, how did you 
distribute it p— There were so many people, and I gave 
them so much money, and they shared it among 
themselves. 

4415. They would not take down all the poles at 
once P— They were all day about it. 

4416. You say 180 men were employed; I suppose 
you first employed a certain number at one pole and 
others at another p — Yes. 

4417. How did you know who you employed ; did you 
keep any memorandum, or did you pay them pole by 
pole as they were taken down p— No, I paid one man, 
and he shared the money. 

4418. Did you pay them after it was all done P—Yes, 
two days afterwards. 

4419. You did not pay them pole by pole P — No. 

4420. You paid them after the whole thing was 
finished P—Yes, the second day after election was all 
over we had the poles taken down. 

4421. Was it after all the poles had been taken down 
that you divided the money amongst the men who 
assisted in taking them down ? — Yes. 

4422. How did you know who had assisted or notP 

They knew themselves, you may depend upon that 

4423. Sunposing a party claimed to be paid who 
had not helped p— The other parties would see about 
that. 

4424. There was a sort of foreman or ganger to see 
about that, do you mean P — Yes. 

4425. After the poles had been taken down people 
came to you, numbering 180, claiming to have assisted, 
and you distributed the money amongst them? — ^Yes, 
they told me there were 180, and I gave 40Z. to be 
divided amongst them. They told me it came to 4«. 5i. 
each, but I never reckoned it up. 

4426. Except what you were told by the different 
kaders of the parties, you really knew nothing as to how 
many people were engaged P— No, but they would take 
care tia&t nobody else was paid but those who had 
assisted ; they would see that they should have no 
money. 

4427. You had 20Z. for yourself P—Yes. 

4428. What are you?— I am a Deal boatman, 

4429. A boat owner P— Partly. 

4430. I think you have a good deal of influence 
amongst the boatmen p— No. 

4431. Do they look up to you aa a leader p— No, I 
have no influence whatever. 

4432. Do you not act to some extent as a leading 
man amongst them P— No, I have nothing to do with 
them. 

4433. (Mr, Jeune,) You are modest; how do you 
think you came to be selected as a person who should 
arrange about all the poles P— I really do not know. I 
suppose because I am a little bit straight and honest, 
and pay anybody whatever I owe. 

4434. (Mr. Holl.) Altogether, what you received for 
puttmg up poles, what was paid to other people, and 
what was paid for taking down, and what was got for 
yourself, it comes to for poles, without the cordace. 
about 250Z. P— Probably it might 

4435. And including the cordage it comes to 
279Z. 19«. 9H P— Probably it might. I have no 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



89 



receipts, but if I had knoi^n this bother had been 
oomiiig I would have had reoeipts. 

4486. I Bee there is a stun of money put down, '' Spears 
** for Axon, for canvassers, 18L," is that you or your 
brotiier?— I had nothing to do with it. My brother 
gave me 6L at starting. 

4437. Did any other money pass through your hands 
besides this money, which you say you distributed every 
^hilling of amongst the men. You told us yon had 6^ 
given to you in the first instance, then a number of other 
sums, tiie precise amount of which you cannot tell, then 
& further sum for distributing amoi:^st the men, and 40L 
for taking down the poles, which you distributed, and 
20L for yourself P— Yes. 

4438. Besides those sums, did you receive any other 
moneys in connection with this election ? — ^Tes. 

4439. How much P— I received three 9L 

4440. When was that, before the election or after P— 
Before the election. 

4441. What did you do with that? — I gave it to a 
man named James Axon* 

4442. What for; from whom did you get it? — 
Mr. Hughes. 

4443. What did you give it to Mr. Axon for ?— I do 
not know. 

4444. When Mr. Hughes gave you the money what 
did he say to you ? — He did not give me the money, he 
gave me a cheque, and I went to tibe bank. 

4445. Was it three cheques for 91. each ?— I am almost 
sure it was. 

4446. Or was any of it cash ? — No. I am almost sure 
it was cheques. 

4447. Did you have three different sums of 9Z., and 
do you recollect going to the bank with them ? — Yes. 

4448. Tell us about it P— That is all I can tell you. 
He gave me the cheques, and I went to the bank and 
changed titiem and gave the man the money. 

4449. Did you get the three cheques at three different 
times P — Yes. 

4450. When you got the first one what did he tell you 
to do ? — To give it to Mr. Axon, and I gave it to him. 

4451. Did he tell you to go to the bank and get it 
cashed, and give the cash to Axon P— No, he did not tell 
me to go to &e bank, but I had the cheque, and I must 
go to the bank to get the cash. 

4452. Did he tell you to give Axon the cheque, or did 
he tell you to go to the bank? — He did not tell me 
anything, but I uiought he gave me the cheque perhaps 
because nobody else might be able to change it. 

4453. Tell me what took place between you and 
Mr. Hughes when he gave you the first cheque for 9^ P 
— Mr. Hughes gave me the cheque and I went to the 
bank. 

4454. He must have told you something about what 
you were to do with it P — No. 

4455. Do you mean that he merely handed you a 
cheque and said nothing?— He said, "Give this to 
" Mr. Axon." 

4456. Did he say *' Gk> and change this," or did he 
say ** Give this to Mr. Axon" ? — I do not remember. 

4457. However, you did go and change the cheque ?— 
Yes. 

4458. And gave the proceeds to Mr. Axon ? — ^Yes. 

4459. Do you know at all what it was for ? — No. 

4460. Was nothing said as to what it was for P— No. 

4461. Have you any idea now what it was for p — No. 

4462. Are you sure of that ? — I do not like to ask 
questions after a thing is all over ; it is not my business 
to ask questions. 

4463. I did not ask you that. What I asked you was 
whether you have any idea now what it was for P — If I 
were to go up and ask what it was for perhaps some of 
them would, up fist, and give me a clout in the head. 

4464. Now tell me the truth. Have you any belief or 
impression in your own mind as to what it was for? — 
He never said nothing to me ; perhaps when you see 
Mr. Hughes he might tell you. 

4465. ^Have you heard at all, or have vou any opinion, 
as to what was done with it P — I do not know whether it 
was for poles, or what I cannot tell you. I do not 
know what it was for. 

4466. What is Axon's name p— There are two or three 
Axons. 

4467. I mean the Axon to whom you gave this money. 
Where does he live, and what is he ?— It is James Axon. 

Q 3334. 



446a Where does he live ?—\Jpper Walmer Road. 

4469. What is hep— A boatman. 

4470. When you gave the money to him did he say 
anything P — ^No, I gave him the money. 

4471. Did he say anything P— I do not know what he 
did say ; he might say something, but I forget. 

4472. Did you tell him what to do with it P— I told 
him there was the 91. 

4473. Did he seem to know what it was for ? — I dare- 
say he did. 

4474. Did you tell him anything about what it was 
for P— No. 

4475. Are you quite certain of that p — Quite certain. 

4476. Did he tell you what it was for ?— No. 

4477. You said, ** Here is the 9Z," Do you mean to 
say he did not give vou any idea what it was for ? — We 
did not teU one another any secrets. 

4478. Were there any secrets P — No. 

4479. Then why did you say you did not tell each 
other any secrets? — A man when he receives money 
takes it home ; if I had had any business along with 
him 

4480. Never mind that — that is not what I asked you. 
When you told him, ** Here is the 9Z." did he seem as if 
he expected it, or was he at all surprised p — Oh dear, no, 
he was not at all surprised. 

4481. Did he say anything to you about what it was 
for?— If he did I do not recollect it. 

4482. You must do P — Ah, but I do not. If I say a 
thing I abide by it. I assure you, gentlemen, I would 
tell you in a moment if I recollected it. I would not 
mince matters. 

4483. (Mr. Tv/nier.) It is not usual for a man to receive 
9^. without something being said about it p — He might 
have said something ; but if he did I forget. I tell you 
the truth, and I am not going to run away from anything 
— he might have said something. 

4484. (Mr. Eoll.) Do you really mean to teU us 
positively — and remember you are upon your oath — that 
you do not recollect whether you said anything to him 
or whether he said anything to you at the time as to 
what was to be done with the money P — ^No, I do not 
recollect it indeed. I will tell you the truth. I had too 
much to drink very often during the election. I do not 
want to see any more elections. 

4485. (Mr. Jeune.) Where did you give him this 
money ? — ^Li the streets. 

4486. You met him in the street ; did you simply ta^e 
the money out of your pocket; what was it, nine 
sovereigns ? — Yes, I do not know whether there were any 
half-sovereigns. 

4487. It was gold at any rate ? — Yes. 

4488. Did you simply take the money out of your 
pocket and say, " Here are nine sovereigns " P — Yes. 

4489. Is that what you said ? — Yes. 

4490. You are sure of it ?— Yes. 

4491. Did you meet him casually in the street, or did 
you expect to meet him? — I do not know whether I 
expected to meet him ; it was given to me to give to him, 
and I done so. 

4492. What did jou say to him when you saw him ? — 
I said, ** Here is nme sovereigns." 

4493. What did he say ?— He said, " Thank you." 
-KD4. Nothing else?— No, nothing else that I am 

aware of ; as I said before, he might have said something, 
but I tell you I forget if he did. 

4495. You cannot be in the habit of giving 9L to 
people very often ? — No, and he would not have got the 
9Z. d it had not been given to me to give to him. 

4496. It is a thing that cannot have happened to you 
very often ; you must remember what took place ? — I tell 
you I do not ; if you ask Mr. Hughes he might tell 
you more about it. Very often I got a little too much to 
drink, and I got bothered several days. 

4497. That is not quite it. I do not thir^ ^ou are 
treating us quite fairly. You meet a man in the street, 
and take out nine sovereigns, or 9^ in gold, and himd it 
to him ; do you represent that you do not remember 
what he said, or what took place ? — Mr. Hughes gave 
me the cheque, and I went to the bank and got the 
money, and gave it to him. 

4498. What took place when you gave it to him ? — 
Nothing that I am aware of. 

4499. You are sure of that ? — Yes, quite sure ; there 
might have been some words passed, or there might not ; 
if there was I should tell you, because why should I 



W. F. Spears. 
9 Oct. 18S0. 



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W, F, Speari, 
9 Oct. 1880. 



minoe anything — yrhsA for ? I have got nothing to oare 
abont. 

4500. Have you given any other monev to anybody else 
in the same way daring this election? — No. 

4501. Before you gave that 91. to Axon had yon given 
any sum of money to anybody else in a Rimiliar way ? — 
No. 

4502. That was the first 91. you distributed ?— Yes. 

4503. Did it not strike you as a little odd that you 
should be asked to give Axon 9^., and that no explana- 
tion should be asked by Axon as to what it was for ? — 
No ; Mr. Hughes gave it to me to give to Axon, and I 
gave it to him. 

4504. Did you tell Axon that it came from Mr. Hughes ? 
— ^That I do not know. 

4505. Did you not say to Mr. Axon, ** Mr. Hughes has 
sent you this 9Z. '*?— -Perhaps I might; I do not know 
I did or not ; you may be thinking I am shrinking from 
telling the trutii, but I am not. I would not shrink from 
anything, but I will not say anything I am not sure 
about. 

4506. You are perfectly right in that, but still it 
strikes me, and I daresay it stnkes my friends also, as a 
little odd, to say the least?— A "little on" do you say; I 
very often was a little on. 

4507. A joke is a joke, but this is a serious matter, 
and you have got to teU us all that you know. You got 
this 91. J and met Axon in the street, and handed it to 
him ; try and recollect what took place ; did not Axon 
ask you what it was for, or what he was to do with it? — 
No ; he was the best judge of that. I was not the judge 
of the money after I gave it to him. 

4508. Try and recollect if you can ?— It is no use my 
telling you anything I do not know, because by-and-bye 
you will be calling me up and saymg that I was lying 
here, and I want to be very careful. 

4509. Try and recollect ?— No, I cannot. 

4510. Try and recollect ?— No, I cannot ; I would tell 
you like a shot if I knew ; what difference is it to me ? 

4611. Now we wiU tn^ the second cheque ; how long 
was it after that that Mi. Hughes gave you the second 
91. ? — It might have been three or four days perhaps. 

4512. What did he say to you when he gave you that 
second 91. ?— He did not give me 9^., but a cheque. 

4513. That is the same thing P— He gave me this 
cheque for 9L, and said, ** Give it to Axon," and I done 
the same thing. 

4514. Did you meet Axon in the street P — ^Yes. 

4515. Did you say, " Here is another 9V* ? — I did not 
say, " Another 9Z.,'^ I said, " Here is 9Z." 

4516. And Axon did not ask you anything at the time P 
—No. 

4517. How long afterwards was the third P— About 
the same time. 

4518. Two or three days P— Yes. 

4519. That was dose upon the election P— Yes, I dare- 
say it was. 

4520. In the same way did you meet Axon again in 
the street P — ^Yes, in the same way. 

4521. And did you say, ** There is 9Z." P— Yes. 

4522. And Axon said nothing P — He took the money 
and put it in his pocket. 

4528. He did not ask you what it was for, or where it 
had come from, or what he was to do with it p — ^I did 
not ask him at alL 

4524. Did he ask you P— No. 

4525. Are you sure of that P — Not to my recollection. 

4526. Three times you met the same man in the street P 
— ^Three times. 

4527. You gave him 92., and you really wish us to 
believe that you cannot recollect whether he asked you 
what it was for, or whether anything was said P — Why 
should I ask him what he was going to do with it P 

4528. That is not it at all ; you may have your reason 
for not telling us which I am unable to guess P — ^If I 
knew I would tell you, and if you see Mr. Hughes he 
will be able to tell you what it was for, no doubt 



4529. Is Mr. James Axon bere P^-Yes. 

4530. You say they were all cheques that Mr. Huglies 
gave you P— Yes. 

4531. In whose name were the cheques drawn P — ^I 
never looked at them. I took them to the bank, put 
them down, and they gave me the money, 

4532. You are pretty sure, are you, that each of the 
cheques was for 9Z., and that there were three of them P 
— I am almost sure about it, but I cannot be sure, because 
it is so long ago. I took the cheques into the bank, put 
them down, and Mr. Spain gave me the money, and I 
came out. 

4533. (Mr. HolL) Are you sure this occurred three 
times ? — ^That what occurred p 

4534. That you received a cheque for 9L, and gave it 
to Axon P — Yes. 

4535. Are you sure that it occurred three times P — ^I 
will not be sure whether it was two or three times. 

4536. Just try and think, because we want to know 
that P— I will not be sure, but I know it was twice, and 
I think it was three times. 

4537. Do you mean really to tell us that twice you 
received a cheque from Mr. Hughes for 91. to give to 
Axon, and that you gave it to Axon without anything 
between you, or anything being said about it p — ^I do not 
know what they had been talking about, I am sure. 

4538. I am not asking you what Mr. Hughes had said to 
Axon, but I am asking you what is a very plain question, 
and you must understaiid it perfectly, viz., do you mean 
to tell us that twice you received a cheque from 
Mr. Hughes, with directions to take the proceeds of the 
cheques to Axon, and on both occasions you met him 
accidentally, and nothing took place between you. Did 
you meet hun accidentally the second time?— -Not that I 
know of. 

4539. Did you meet him in the streets, or go to his 
house P — He came down to DeaL 

4540. Where did you see him in Deal upon the second 
occasion ? — Just at the bottom of our street. 

4541. Did you meet him there accidentally, or did you 
send for him P — ^I did not send for him. 

4542. Did you meet him casually? — He is very often 
down at Deal. 

4543. Did you expect to see him P — ^Yes, I did expect 
to see him, to give him the money. 

4544. Why did you expect to see him P — Because the 
money was given to me to give to him. 

4545. (Mr. Tv/mer.) How did he know that P^I do not 
know. 

4546. (Mr. Holl.) How came you to meet liim there ; 
was it a mere accident that you met him in the street, or 
had you sent for him? — ^I do not know, but I did meet 
him and gave him the money ; he might have come down 
on purpose to see me. 

4547. Do you mean to tell us that upon the second 
occasion you did not say anything to him as to what was 
to be done with the money P— I tell you I might, but I 
forget it, or he might have said something to me. 

4548. You have told us that over and over again P — I 
cannot tell you anything else. 

4549. Do you teU us that you do not remember on 
either occasion whether you said anything to Hitw about 
what was to be done with this money, or whether he 
said anything about it ? — I do not recollect it. 

4550. (Mr. Twmer.) Wad it near the bank that you 
met him P — No, I live in Wellington Boad, towards the 
'' Victoria " Hotel, some distance from the bank. 

4551. {Mr. HoU.) Did you receive any other money at 
all in connection with the election besides the sums you 
have mentioned, and these two or three sums which you 
had from Mr. Hughes to give to Mr. Axon P — No. 

4552. Nothing at aU P— No. 

4563. That you are quite sure of P — Yes, quite 
sure of. 

4554. Did you pay to anyone any moneys, excepting 
those you have told us of p — No. 

4555. Not to anyone P — ^No. 

4556. Directly or indirectly P— No, 



J, Axtm. James Axon sworn and examined. 

" 4557. (Mr. Turner.) What are you P— A boatman. 4559. What have you to say as to that P—I received it 

4558. Have you heard the last witness's evidence about 



two sums of 91. each, which he says he gave to you P — 
Yes. 



from him. 

4560. How many sums p — Three sums. 

4561. Three sums of 91. P— Yes. 



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



91 



4662. Id gold?— Yes. 

4563. Where did you receive it from him?— -In the 
streets at different times. 

4564. Did you come to meet him ? — I was down that 
way, knowing it was due to me. 

4565. What for ?— For work that we had done. 

4566. What work ?— As watchmen ; me and 17 more 
were employed at 5^. a night. 

4567. Had you had any communication with Mr. 
Hughes about it ? — Yes. 

4568. When was that?— About 12 days before the 
election. 

4569. What did Mr. Hughes tell you to dop— We 
agreed, 18 of us, for 59. a night, to look after the poles 
and see that no one destroyed them. 

4570. Did he tell you how he would pay you P — Yes, 
I was to go down for the money every two days. 

4571. Where to? —Where Mr. Hughes was, at the 
" Royal " Hotel, but by chance I fell in with Sp^u», and 
he told me he had my money, and of course I received it 
off him. 

4572. Were you a canvasser at all ? — No. 

4573. You chd no canvassing ?— No. 

4574. All you did was watching ? — Yes, me and 
17 more were watching the poles by night. 

4575. What did you do with the 9L when you got 
tJiem ? — Took it and shared it directly amongst my 
crew. 

4576. Is that all the money yon received during the 
election P — No. 

4577. What else did you receive?— I received 27L 
from Mr. Hughes. 

4578. In one (sum ?— Yes, that was six days' pay, 
because I could not faU in with him the fourth and fifth 
nights. 

4579. Did you receive any money from a man named 
Kynaston, 182. ? — It might come through Mr. Eynaston's 
hands. 

4580. What is he ?— A gentleman, residing in Walmer. 

4581. What was that balance for ?— I do not recollect 
receiving any ISl. from Mr. Kynaston, all that me and 
my party had was 542. 

4582. Do you think that this 182. is part of that, or 
another sum ? — That 182. may be a part of the last 272. 
I received. 

4583. Did you distribute that in the same way ? — Yes, 
directly I got it. 

4584. All this was before the election ? — Yes. 

4585. You had 5«. a night?— Yes, for 12 nights, 18 of 
us. 

4586. Had you any other communication, besides what 
you have told us of, with Mr. Hughes ? — No, no com- 
munication whatever — ^we only agreed with him to look 
after Ihe poles, me and 17 more, and I was to receive the 
money evei^ two davs. I received the first six days 
every second day, and I received it of Mr. Spears. 

4587. Have you got any list of the 17 men who worked 
with you P — ^No, but I know the names. I have no list. 

4588. Can you write the names down ?— I can tell you 
the names as I stand here. 

4589. Give the Christian and surname, and where 
they live p — ^I cannot tell you the street, there is only 
one street in Walmer, and it is in so many divisions. 

4590. Were they all boatmen P— Yes. 

4591. If you give the Christian and surname tiiat will 
do ?— John Mercer, Joseph Mercer, James Bushell, John 
Wood, Arthur Wood, James Simms, John Elsden, 
Thomas Smith, William Smith, (George Bedman, Biohard 
Stokes, Henry Stokes, John Elliott, Edward Coleman, 
Biohard Heard. I cannot remember the others. 

4592. Perhaps you will ^be able to remember them 
presently, are these men voters ?— Yes, I believe, nearly 
all of tiiem are voters. 

4593. You are a voter P— Yes. 

4594. Did you select these men yourself, or were you 
told to employ them P — No, we jomed together to get a 
job. 

4595. Did Mr. Hughes say anything to you about the 
men you were to select p — ^We went and presented our- 
selves to Mr. Hughes, and told him we wanted some 
work to do. 

4596. When you first went to Mr. Hughes, and he told 
you he would employ you to look after the poles, did he 
tell you to employ any particular men P — No. 

4597. What did you tell him ?— I told him we wanted 



a job. I told him there were a good many of us out of j. Axon, 

work and we wanted a job, and that we should hke the 

job of looking after the poles, as most likely someone 5 Oct. 1880. 
would pull them down if they were not looked after ; — — -'. 
and he gave us the job at 5^. a night to look after 
the poles, and that was 12 days before the election came 
off. 

4598. {Mr. HoJl) There were 18 who wanted work? 
—Yes, there were 18 of us who had been talking the 
matter over, and he gave us the job, at 5a. a night, to 
look after the poles. 

4599. You 18 had arranged amongst yourselves bef ore- 
hand ?-^Ye8, we had had a little conversation over the 
matter ; we were like the rest, we wanted a few beans 
out of the sack. 

4600. Tell us what the conversation was, as near 
as you can remember ; the substance of it ? — It was 
not much,, only that everyone that was there wanted a 
job. 

4601. And they deputed you to go to Mr. Hughes? — 
We see Mr. Hughes up the road, and stopped hun, and 
formed a bit of a ring roimd him, and he gave us the 
job ; and they selected mo to go and receive the money, 
and I had to come down every second night to get the 
money. 

4602. I suppose he knew you were boatmen at 
Walmer p — Yes, he could see by our rig that we were 
boatmen. 

4603. Did you ffive him the names of the men you 
were going to employ ?— Yes, I did. 

4604. At the time P — Yes ; I wrote them all down and 
gave it to him. It is not likely he was going to pay me 
for a man if he did not have his name. 

4605. {Mr. Twmcr.) Can you think of the other two 
men ? — ^No, I cannot. Alfred TumbuU was another. 

4606. Did you or your comrades do anything as can- 
vassers, or did you act as messengers ? — No, not that I 
am aware of. 

4607. You were not emploved in that way ? — ^No, only 
to look after the poles at nights. 

4608. (Mr, Jewne.) When you saw Mr. Hughes did 
he maJce any difficulty about it p — No ; we met him on 
the road publicly and talked to him, and told him we 
wanted a job ; and, these poles being erected, we said 
they would want someone to look after them. He said, 
** How many are there of you," and we said ** 18 of us ;" 
and we told him our terms, and he agreed. 

4609. It was you who suggested that the poles wanted 
watcjiing P — ^Yes, me and me rest ; we aU nad a say in « 
it ; it was not me alone who spoke. 

4610. It was you who suggested to him that the poles 
wanted watching, and not he to you? — Yes, we sug- 
gested it to him ; not me alone, but me and the rest. 

4611. Did you name the terms, or did he name the 
terms P — He named the terms, 5«. a night ; he said he 
would give 5«. a night. 

4612. You asked him what he would give P — ^Yes. 

4613. And he said, ** I will give 5«. a night ?"- Yes ; 
the 18 of us, as we all wanted a job, and I had to take a 
list of the names to him. 

4614. That was about 12 days before the election ? — 
Yes. 

4615. There were some poles up, I suppose, then ? — 
Yes, a great many were up then ; and they kept putting 
them up every day afterwards. 

4616. Can yoa tell me how many there were up then 
in Walmer and Deal ?— I should think 60 to 70 in Walmer 
alone, both sides. 

4617. I suppose you onljr had to watch the poles on 
your own side P — Yes, that is all. 

4618. When you first began to watch there were none 
up upon the other side ; tiiey were all your poles p — 
Yes, all Conservative poles then, for about five or six 
nights. 

4619. Can you tell me about how many there were 
when you first began to watch P — About 18 poles. 

4620. There were 18 of you, and 18 poles, so that 
there was a man to a pole P— I could not say to one or 
two. 

4621. Can you teU me how many there were put up 
before the Liberals put up any ; before they came upon 
the field indeed P You say, for &ye or six nights 
there were none of the other side put up ? — There were 
one or two Liberal poles up then. 

4622. How many were there of yours about? Of 
course I do not want it exactly P — ^I should think the first 
five or six days there were 15 or 16 in Hie districts we 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



J. Ax<m, 



9 Oct 1880. 



had to look after ; but people had put up poles in their 
owu yards, but that was nothing to do with us. 

4623. Were you engaged for Walmer alone, or Deal 
and Walmer P— Walmer. We had nothing to do with 
Deal at all. 

4624. There were 18 of you to watch the poles of 
Walmer alone P — Yes. 

4626. Did you watoh them at night at all P — ^Yes. 

4626. How many of you stayed up P — ^We used to be 
in two diyisions. Some took the fore part, and some the 
morning part ; watoh and watoh. 

4627. In divisions of nine P— Yes. 

4628. Nine of you took the day, and nine the night P 
— No, we were not about in the day watching; mere 
was no fear of the poles being cut in the day, but it was 
in the night we were watching. 

4629. Each division took half the night P— Yes. 

4630. Was there any attempt made to injure the poles P 



— There were some crawling about in the night, but when 
they saw anybody upon the move they were off. 

4631. There were not many people about at night at 
all, were there? — ^I do not Icnow, there were a good 
many about at different times. When the other party 
got about I daresay they had a watching party also. 

4632. Do you remember the election of 1874 P— I was 
here. 

4633. Did you have any employment at that time? — 
No, nor yet voted. 

4634. Had you a vote ?— Yes. 

4635. You got no employment, so you did not vote ? — 
It was not for that reason at all. 

4636. Was it not ; how came you not to vote in 1874 ? 
— ^Because I was away. 

4637. This time you were here, and voted p — Yes. 
We thought we would have a few beans as well as the 
rest. 



J, A. Foster. 



John Ashlet Fostbb sworn and examined. 



4638. (Mr. Jeune.) You are the landlord of the 
" Royal Hotel P "—Yes. 

4639. You sent in some bills, I think, to the Conser- 
vative side of this election ? — Some private accounts do 
you mean of Mr. Roberts P 

4640. Any accounts ? — Yes. 

4641. To whom did you send in those bills? — To 
Mr. Pope, the butler, or to the housekeeper, Mrs. 
Stedman, and the rest to Captain Roberts. 

4642. Mr. Crompton Roberts was not staying in your 
house ? — Yes. His first appearance was upon April 29th, 
and he went away upon the 30th ; he came down again 
on the 4th May, and stayed three davs, I think, and then 
he himself left for Stanley House ; but Captain Roberts 
and Mrs. Roberts, and IVuss Gordon, returned the same 
evening ; they left for dinner, and left early the day after 
that. 

4643. Then they went to Stanley House?— Yes. 

4644. To whom did you give in the biUler Uiat; do 
vou say, to Mrs. Stedman ?— Mrs. Stedman called for the 
bills in my room ; they were not sent in to Mr. Roberts. 

4645. How many biUs have you sent in at all to any- 
body on the Conservative side P — I think there may be 
three. 

4646. Perhaps you have got a copy of them ? — Yes 
{hcmding a paper). 

4647. Were these separate bills ?— Yes. 

4648. There are six I see P — Yes, and one of those six 
bills can be sub-divided. I have given you the amount 
of 17^., and that is divisible into three. 

4649. To whom were these bills sent P— The first, I 
think, was paid by Mr. Crompton Roberts; then, I 
think, Mr. Pope paid the second, and the third was paid 
by Mrs. Stedman. 

4650. To whom was the second sentP — It was not 
actually sent in ; Mr. Pope asked for the bill, and paid 
it. 

4651. He is the butler P— Yes. 

4652. The third is 27^. 198. lid. ?— Yes ; I am under 
the impression Mrs. Stedman paid it, but I am not quite 
certain. 

4653. What is the fourth ; who paid that ?— I think 
the coachman. 

4654. Was that for the horses ?— Yes. 

4655. How many horses had Mr. Crompton Roberts 
down here ? — Six. 

4656. Then there is a bill of 17L 19«. Id. P— I think 
that was paid by the butler. 

4657. Then there is a very small sum of 178. ?— Yes ; 
that was paid by Captain Roberts. 

4658. Were the whole of those bills for personal ex- 
penses, if I may so put it, of Mr. Roberts and his family ? 
— A private hotel account. 

4659. Was any part of them for refreshments, or any- 
thing of that kind, supplied to anybody else except 
Mr. Roberts and his family ? — To no other person except 
Mr. Nethersole, who had luncheon on one occasion ; 
there was nothing in the way of treating, it is a private 
hotel account. You mentioned whether the bills were 
for personal expenses of Mr. Roberts and his family, 
and I should not consider some were members of ms 
family, and Mr. Netiiersole I give as one, and he had 
luncheon once. 

4660. Was the amount paid as represented by these 
bills ?— Yes. 



4661. Were there any cheques p — No, I think it was 
all in cash. 

4662. Was not the sum of 27^. 19*. lid. paid to 
you by a cheque of Mr. Crompton Roberts ?--No, I do 
not tmnk so ; it may have been, but I am under the 
impression it was all cash. 

4663. You have not got, I suppose, copies of the bills? 
— No, the bills were given to the butler and the house- 
keeper ; they would have the bills. 

4664. I suppose the bills would show exactly what 
the amount was for ? — Yes, exactly corresponding with 
those amounts. 

4665. There are two sums put down in the returned 
expenses of Mr. Hughes. Foster, 25Z. 11^. 8ef., and 
again 211. 28. lOd. ; did Mr. Hughes pay to you those 
two sums? — I am certain of the first one, 25^. lis. Sd. 
(handing a paper). 

4666. This was paid to you by Mr, Hughes? — Or 
Mr. Thomas ; it was sent by cheque. 

4667. I see first of all an item of Ibl. ; what is that 
for ?^3ommittee room. 

4668. A committee room was engaged at your house ? 
— It was used for business at the election ; whether they 
called it a committee room or not I do not know, but 1 
think it was called the committee room. 

4669. A room for use at the election ? — Yes. 

4670. What sort of a room is it ? — Rather a large room ; 
it may be termed my coffee room. 

4671. What was done with it during the election ? — 
They transacted the general business there of the election, 
and there were many clerks employed there. 

4672. Were clerks engaged at work there ? — ^Yes, and 
there was Mr. Hughes's room as well. 

4673. How many clerks were there engaged ?— I cannot 
say how many. 

4674. There is a sum of lOZ. paid out to Brooks ; what 
was that ? — That was for carriage hire. 

4675. Who is Brooks? — A fly proprietor. Mr. Hughes 
had no change at the time that Mr. Brooks applied for 
the money, and he asked me to pay it for ^im^ which he 
paid back afterwards. 

4676. Then ** James 5«. " P— Yes, that was for taking 
down flags. 

4677. The others are small sums I see ; was that the 
only sum which you received from Mr. Hughes ?— No, 
I have another sum here of 24^ for tiie band, and there 
is the receipt. 

4678. " Band of 24 or less upon polling day, from 
" 12 a.m., at IZ. a man, and to wear the Conservative 
" colours, 24 rosettes ; " that is 24^ ?— Yes. 

4679. Who is John Loughlin ?— That is the person I 
arranged with — one of the band. 

4680. Did you agree with Mr. Loughlin that he was to 
have 24Z. for his band P — Yes. 

4681. And you paid him 241. ?— Yes. 

4682. Are those the only sums you received from 
Mr. Hughes ? — Those are the only sums beyond changing 
a cheque occasionally. I frequently gave change for a 
cheque, but not to receive any sum of money. 

4683. You generally gave it in gold?— Yes. Supposing 
they wanted change for a cheque, I cashed it, or took it 
to the bank and got change for it. 

4684. There is a sum of 21L 2«. lOd. ?— I cannot quite 
remember that. It is possible it is one of Mr. Hughes's 



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bills that he has charged Mr. Roberts with as election 
expenses. I believe there is a bill of that amount, but 
I should consider that Mr. Hughes's private account. 

4685 This is a bill of 22?. 28. lOd., put down under the 
same head as the 25?. 11«. Sd., of which you have told 
us?— I am not certain, but I think there is an account 
in my book to Mr. Hughes for that amount, and I have 
some idea that was mentioned upon the Petition. Another 
bill waa given which reminded me at the time that it 
was his private account. , . i a 

4686. Do you mean, private account at your notel f — 
Yes. i think afterwards he charged it as electioneering 
expenses. I remember at the Petition another amount 
was named, which at the time reminded me it was his 
private account. 

4687 There are these two items put down under your 
name in the returned expenses ?— Then I imagine he has 
charged what I considered his private account to 
Mr. Roberts as an electioneering expense. 

4688. Thathardly corresponds, because it is2i;. 2«. lOd., 
BO that it must have been a specific payment ?— It is not 
down upon my paper, is it? 

4689. No. In the election expenses returned there is 
an item of ill. 2s. lOd. in your name, and I do not find 
that that corresponds with anything upon your list ?— 
No. I have returned you the private account of 
Mr. Roberts, and not any account of Mr. Hughes that 
he may have charged as electioneering expenses. I will 
refer to my books, and possibly I shall find such an 
account. I received two cheques from Mr. Hughes, one 
was for 25^. odd, and another was for his private account, 
which I fancy is the ariiount you are now asking me 
about ; and I Wve no doubt that is the amount which 
he has charged as an electioneering expense. 

4690. Now, besides the items there which you say 
were paid, the 25Z. lis. 8(2. and the 24L, did you receive 
any other money from Mr. Hughes ?— No other sums. 

4691. Or from Mr. Roberts?— No, except his own 
private hotel account. 



4692. I thought you told me this was his private hotel J, A. Fo$Ur. 

account ?— That is Mr. Roberts' private account, but 

several times "Mx. Hughes has been down since, and of 9 Oct. 1880. 
course I received sums of money for his accounts ; but ^ 

no other sums during the election. 

4693. Or in respect of the election ?— Nor in respect 
of the election. 

4694. Or from anybody connected with the Con- 
servative cause P— No, no other sums whatever. 

4695. Is that the whole of the money which you 
received from the Conservative side in connexion with 
the election P—Certainly. 

4696. And any sums that have been paid to you since 
have been merely hotel bills P— Yes, merely hotel bills 
since. 

4697. That is another thing altogether. Now would 
you make out for us from your books the items that go 
to make up this 98^. 5«. ?— Y es. 

4698. We should be much obliged if you would have 
them copied out and sent to us P — Certainly. 

4699. I daresay we shall not have to ask you to come 
again, for I daresay they will e^rolain themselves, but 
we should like to see them. These sums you have 
enumerated, I understand, are all the monies you re- 
ceived from Mr. Roberts, Mr. Hughes, or from any1>ody 
connected with the Conservative party in respect of the 
election?— Yes, all I received. 

4700. At your house were any refreshments supplied . 
to voters P — None whatever. 

4701. Your house was used on the Conservative side 
alone ?— Yes. 

4702. It had nothing to do with the Liberals at the 
election P — No. 

4703. Then if you will kindly send us the items of the 
98Z. copied from your books 1 think that will be all we 
need trouble you with ?— Very well, sir, I will. 



WniiiiAM Henby RambIjL sworn and examined. 



W.H.'RameU. 



4704. We understand you ajre a painter P— Yes. 

4706. We have heard from your brother yesterday 
that you were employed to paint some fiags?— Not 
particularly to paint them. 

4706. Tell us what you did P— I had to make them. I 
had them made. You have a statement of my account 
there, I fr^JTiV^ showing what I did. 

4707. Is that a business you generally carry on- 
making fiags P— When they are wanted, but it is a thing 
not very often wanted in Deal. 

4708. Did you ever make any before P— Yes, thousands 
—hundreds. 

4709. Was that on election occasions ?— Yes, and other 
times besides. I said thousands, and no doubt perhaps 
I have made thousands. 

4710. What instructions did you get from your 
brother P— My brother came to me on the morning of 
Sir Julian Goldsmid's coming down over night and said 
that he had received instructions from Mr. Edwards to 
get some poles erected and some flags made, because he 
saw there were some poles up on the other side, and he 
had no doubt our people would want the same. He 
asked me whether I would mind doing it. I said, " Oh 
•* no! I wiU do it." Accordingly he went with me 
round to all the drapers— certain drapers whom we knew 
had always voted on the liberal side, and he gave them 
instruotionB to supply me with the material for these 
flags, and not to let anyone else have it, but either 
himself and me. Accordingly I had some on that day, 
and I made a few flags. Well, it struck me very forcibly 
at night— I had heard talk about these illegal acts— I 
cannot agree with the Legislature there that it is an 
fllegal act, but we wiQ not argue that. 

4711. We will not trouble about that P— No. I think 
it is not an illegal act. 

4712. Kindly tell us what you did P— It struck me, as 
this is an illegal act — 

4713. Who said that P— I said so to myself— as this is 
an illegal act I do not think I will go on with this job. 
I was a little bit put aback by the drag— seeiog the drag 
here rather frightened me. I did not like the appearance 
of that drag, I know what it is. We had a Downs Docks 
afi&dr here once, and this had very much the appearance 
of the Downs Dock. 

4714. Do you mean by a drag a four-horse carriage ?— 
Yes, a four-horse drag. Well, I got up early next 



morning, and I went to my brother and said, " John, I 
' ' am going to sMke this job. I do not mean to have 
** nothing to do with ujij more flags ; I think, as the 
'' Legislature says it is illegal, I should not like to do 
** anything that would injure Sir Julian Ooldsmid if 
** tiiere came a contest, and," I says, ** Now you go and 
** see Mr. Edwards ; " and at 10 in the morning he went 
to see Mr. Edwards, with instructions from me to 
say I thought it waa not right. He came back from 
Mr. Edwards to me to say he had seen Sir Julian — ^he 
understood that Mr. Edwards had seen Sir Julian, and 
it was an understood thing on both sides that flags would 
be allowed. Accordingly I did the flags, and you have 
the statement of my account there, and I will answer 
any questions about it. I worked through the whole 
week, night and day, making those flags, and I think 
I made about 300. Unfortunately I had not got another 
helper in the town. Our friends on the other side ^ot 
so many that can make flags, and I was alone in domg 
so. 

4715. Your brother came back and told you what 
Mr. Edwards had said, did he p— The instructions he got 
was that Sir Julian Gk>ldsmid said, Oh it was an under- 
stood thing on both sides, that they would have flags. 

4716. That is what he understood from Mr. Edwards P 
—Yes. 

4717. Tell us exactly what he said? — He said that 
Mr. Edwards had said— these are the words, I think, 
he said, and no doubt it is correct — ^that Mr. Edwards 
had seen Sir Julian Goldsmid, and it was an understood 
thing on both sides. It generally was an understood 
thing on both sides, and that we were to go on with it. 
Accordingly I went to work, and, I think, I made I 
should say about 300 flags. 

4718. Have you got any memoranda, or any books, 
to show how many you made P — ^Nothing whatever. I had 
no time to enter tnings, or anything of that sort ; my 
time was fully occupied. I do not think I had an 
hour's sleep the whole tim^. 

4719. Kindly merely answer the question. Have you 
any memoranda or l)ook P — No, none whatever ; only 
what I gave in. 

4720. Have you any memoranda of what quantity of 
material you had delivered to you P — ^No. 

4721. Then you have nothing to show in writing at 
all what quantity of material you received, or how many 
flags you made p — ^No, nothing. 



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SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION: 



W. H. RameU, 4722. Whfit memorandft have yon handed in, do yon 

sayP — Sometime after the election was over Mr. Ed- 

9 Oct 1880. wards wanted to give a statement of acconnts in to, I 

suppose, Lewis and Lewis, and I made up from memory 

(and I haye not a bad memory) a statement of acconnt, 
and gaye it to my brother for him to present to 
Mr. Edwards, and that is the acconnt that yon gentlemen 
haye. 

4728. What did that show on the face of it, do yon 
remember P — ^All that I paid. 

4724. But did it giye any details P — ^Tes, it gaye the 
details of what I paid, and the whole amount, and what 
I have reoeiyed. 

4725. What you paid to the different people p— Yes, 
the different people, for sewing. 

4726. What you paid to those people you employed 
to assist you in making the flags P — ^Yes, the people 
that I gaye the work out to. 

4727. Did you take receipts from those people? — 
None whatever. 

4728. You say you paid these sums P— Yes. 

4729. And you have no receipts or youchers for them P 
—No. 

4730. There is, "Paid men for labour, 61 10«."— 
Yes, that was men that came up and assisted on my 
premises. 

4731. Do you know who they were? — ^Yes, seyeral of 
them. There was a man named Nicholls, and a man 
named Moult, that was one of my own men, a painter, 
and a man named Clements. 

4732. He is put down separately at IZ. 10«. P — That is 
another Clements, the father. 

4733. Haye you any memorandum or account showing 
what these people did for these sumsp — No, none 
whatever. 

4734. There is Long, 5Z. ?— Yes. 

4735. Bayly, 5Z. P— Yes. 

4736. Miss Curling, 5Z.?— Yes. 

4737. And Matthews, 5Z. ?— Yes. 

4738. Those are sums paid for materials, are they ? — 
No, for labour ; making. 

4739. Have you any account at all showing what they 
did for their money P — No, none whatever.^ 

4740. Did each of them make exactly the same 
number P — No. 

4741. Then why pay them bl. each p— Well, I gave 
them bl. 

4742. Without any particulars of what they had done P 
— None whatever. 

4743. There is Clements, 12. 10«., and again Clements, 
4Z., and you have no memoranda of what those people 
did P— None. 

4744. Can you tell me the number of flags any of 
these people made; Mr. Long and Mr. Bayly for 
instance? — I cannot tell at alL If I had be^n a flag 
they would have had me. These flags were made on 
my premises, and they came and fetched them, and I 
had no time whatever to take any memorandum of any- 
thing that went out. 

4744a. You say people came and fetched them ; who 
came and fetched tiiem P — ^The watermen sent to me. 

47445. I am speaking now of the people you paid, 
not those who had flags afterwards. Long, Bayly, 
Matthews, and Miss CurHng, were paid 5^ each, and 
you have had no memorandum .showing what they did, 
or the number of flags they made, or anything ? — ^No. 
I think I can explain that, if you will allow me. 

4744c. Then do so shortiy P — I had a great objection 
to paying people for their votes, bribery and corruption 
you know, a very great objection, and I knew tiiese 
people had votes, and I gave them tiie job to make these 
flags. 

4744cL I understand P— -Well, I must give it to some 
one ; somebody must make all the flags, and I might 
just as well give them the job as anyone else. 

47446. You had a great objection to paying anybody 
for their votes P— Yes. 

474^. And you knew these people had votes P — Yes. 

474^. And so you employed them to make the flags P 
—Yes. 

4744^. And gave them bl. each P — Yes. 

4744i. So you paid them for the flags instead of 
paying them for their votes P — Yes. I must pay some- 
body, and so I gave them the job. 

4744;. And that is how you carried out your objection 
to paying anybody for their votes P — Yes. 



4745. Was that the same with Clements P— Yes. 

4746. And Long and Bayly P — Yes, every one. 

4747. And Matthews P— I must explain. Matthews 
did not make flags, it was wooden stretchers to put the 
flags on. 

4748. But you employed him on the same principle ? 
— On the same principle. 

4749. Then I see there is Mr. Pitcher, Boal, Smith, 
Williams, Noble, Buttress, Wilmhurst, Mose, Clements, 
Lambert, and Parsons ; all of them are paid the same ; 
are most of them voters? — No, they are mostly women 
who came and wanted a job. 

4750. Then you paid men for labour 6Z. 10». P— Yes. 

4751. Were they employed upon the same principle ? 
—Yes. 

4752. And with the same view ? — Yes. 

4753. Did you pay yourself lOZ. on the same principle? 
— I think you will flnd, gentlemen, when you come to 
look at the end, tiiat I have not had anything. 

4754. But you charge lOL ?— WeU, shall I get it, is the 
question. 

4755. Haye you a vote ?— Yes, I have had one these 
30 years. 

4756. (Mr. Jeune.) Now just tell me this, you selected 
these people because they were your friends?— Yes. 

4757. Liberals, and friends of the Liberals ?— Yes, 
they lived close to me or a few doors away. 

4758. And you chose them because they were friends 
of the Liberal cause ?— Well, I believed it. 

4759. Did you say anything to any of them about 
voting for you P— Yes ; that is, those five. 

4760. (Mr,Holl) The "five-pounders"?— Yes. 

4761. (Jlfr. Jeune,) You said something to them about 
voting, did you ? — Yes, I had seen certain parties on the 
opposite side roimd the doorway, and of course I went 
to them and told them I could not give them anything 
for their vote, but I would give them employment equal 
to what they were promised on the other side. I Imew 
within a Httie whiat they were promised on the other 
side. 

4762. (Mr, Holt) If they would vote for your side ? — 
Yes, and I have reason to believe they did vote. 

4763. Tell us the names of those you told that to ?— 
Curling. 

4764. What is the Christian name ? — John Curling I 
think it is, he lives at 54, West Street. 

4765. What is he ?— He is a pensioner. I must tell you 
that he had a wife and daughter, and they made them by 
the sewing machine. 

4766. You put it down to the daughter? — Did I put 
it down to the daughter? 

4767. Yes? — Well, it is no matter, it was well under- 
stood what it was for. I understand that. 

4768. {Mr. Jemie.) So did they, I suppose ?— Yes. 

4769. (Mr. Holt) And it being understood you put it 
down to the daughter ? — Yes, I had my money^s worth. 

4770. Then I see there is Mr. Long?— Yes. 

4771. What is his Christian name? — John Long. 

4772. Where does he live P— He resides in Wellington 
Bead, he is a lodger I think. 

4778. Then there is Bayly, what is his Christian 
name ? — I do not know. 

4774. What is he ?— He wotka at a milk walk. 

4775. Where does he live ?— No. 9, St. George's Place. 

4776. Then Matthews?— He byes at No. 11, St. 
George's Place. 

4777. What is his Christian name? — Thomas 
Matthews. 

4778. And Moult ? — He is one of my own men, he has 
not a vote. 

4779. He is not one of those yon arranged with ? — 
No. 

4780. Was Clements?— Clements was. 

4781. What is his Christian name? — William 
Clements. 

4782. Where does he live ? — He liyes in Chapel Lane, 
I do not know the number of his house. 

4783. Are there any others in this list that you made 
any arrangement witSi to employ them with a view to 
getting their votes ; just look at it {handing the list to ^ 
witness) ? — No, these are all women and girls. 

4784. The others are women and girls, are they? — 
Yes, they came in, and I wanted hands, and I employed 
them. 



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^785. Were any of the men to whom yon paid 6Z. 10a. 
for labour voters that yon made this arrangement with ? 
—One man, I think, was a yoter, 

4786. Who is he ? — His name is Buttress. 

4787. What is his Christian name ?— Peter, I think. 

4788. Do yon know where he lives ? — No, I do not 
know where he lives ; I know he lives in DeaL 

4789. And you think his name is Peter Buttress ? — I 
will not be certain, either Peter or George. 

4790. Did you arrange with him about his vote?— I 
did not arrange with him. 

4791. Does he live in Middle Street, Deal ? — ^I cannot 
flay exactly ; it is somewhere in the north end of Deal ; 
I can find out for you. 

4792. Do so, and let us know ? — ^Tes ; whether he has 
not gone to an asylum now I do not know, or whether he 
is back again I do not know. He takes on so about the 
election, that our party should lose. 

4793. Did you arrange with him for his vote ?— No, 
nothing whatever. He came in, and I said, " Peter, here, 
you can do this." 

4794. He asked for employment ? — ^Tes, he came in, 
and I gave him a job. 

4795. Did you make any arrangement with him about 
voting for you or your ptatj ?— No ; no doubt he was 
arranged with by someone else. 

4796. Did you say he should have anything if he voted 
for you ? — No, nothing. 

4797. Did you expect he would vote for you ?— Well, 
very doubtful; I do not trust anyone now under the 
Ballot Act. 

4798. Is there anvone else in this list that you made 
any arrangement of that kind with, that they should vote 
in consideration of employment? — ^None whatever. 

4799. And you have told us the five ? — ^Yes. 

4800. One of those five that you mentioned is a milk- 
man ? — Yes. 

4801. Did he do anything in the way of assisting to 
make the flags P — Not he ; his wife did. 

4802. Have you received any money besides the 251. 
you told us you had received on account P — None what- 
ever. 

4803. Nothing at all P— Nothing at aU. 

4804. Have you paid any money to anyone excepting 
the sums you have mentioned in this account P — Not one 
penny. 

4805. Or promised any P — No, there is none promised. 

4806. Is vour brother here p — No, I do not expect he 
is ; it is a busy day on Saturday ; I do not think he is 
here. 

4807. I should like him to be sent for at onceP — ^I 
have no doubt but that he will come down immediately. 



4808. We will get you to remain here for a little while 
till your brother comes P— Yes ; may I make a little 
statement P 

4809. Certainly P— I think you have the counter-peti- 
tion, have you not, of Sandwich P 

4810. (Mr. Jemw.) There was no counter-petition P — 
The whole of the proceedings on the petition, I mean P 

4811. Yes P — I think you will find a statement made, 
I do not know whether by Mr. Hughes, or whether it is 
a statement made by Mr. Matthews, the counsel for Mr. 
Crompton Boberts, that a painter was paid 50^ for blue 
paint. 

4812. Yes P — Well, gentlemen, this is a small place, 
and when these little things get about one is placed in 
rather an awkward position among his fellow-townsmen 
when you have nothing to show. There is an account 
of that published ; whether it was Mr. Hughes said so, 
or Mr. Matthews, the counsel, I do not &ow, but be 
was summing up how the Liberal party had gone on, 
and he said, ''There, gentlemen, here is an account of 
50^. for blue paint from one painter in Deal." 
Mr. £dwards saw me the next morning, and, says he, 
'* Look out, Bamell, there is something in the paper for 
you to-day ; they have got your 50^. for blue paint." 
Now, of course, when such a statement is made, and 
people do not know better, they take it for granted it is 
so. Now, I never supplied one oimce of blue paint to 
the party the whole time. How it was, was in this man- 
ner. I gave you a description of the poles, and fortu- 
nately for me there is a blue painter in Deal (they are 
like angels' visits), and this man supplied them with four 
14's of paint to paint these poles down ; but it was 
done in this manner. I have no doubt Mr. Hughes or 
Mr. Matthews says 50^. for blue paint, but he had taken 
the '' o " off the 50 lbs. of blue paint, and had twisted it 
over, and instead of " o-f " he had added " o-r *' to it. 

4813. (Mr. Roll.) And you did not supply any paint P 
—No. 

4814. You think it is 60 lbs. weight, and not money P— 
Yes. 

4815. I daresay it is P — Then be goes all over the town 
and says, " Why, 60/. for blue paint." Now perhaps it 
will satisfy the gentlemen here I am not what they 
thought for. 

4816. (Mr. Jewne.) You are quite right. Did you 
speak at any of the Liberal meetings, air P — No, I am 
not a speaker. 

4817. I think you would have spoken very well if you 
had P — I only attended one meeting, and that was on the 
night when Sir Julian Goldsmid came down, and I was 
pei^ectly satisfied with his views. You will find, gentle- 
men, I am about 102. or 12Z., or nearly 20/., out of 
pocket. 

4818. (Mr. HolL) Yon will wait until your brother 
oomes ? — ^Yes. 



W, H. RamtU. 
9 Oct. 1880. 



WmmAK Henby Fbazizlin sworn and examined. 



4819. {Mr. Twmer.) You are a hosier and glover in 
Deal P— Yes. 

4820. Did yon supply any goods at the last election P 
—I did. 

4821. I have got five bills of vours here; one for 
8L 15«. lOid., one for 89. 6<i, one for 102. la.M., one for 
Ihl. 11«. 3d., and one for U. ? — They are all right. 

4822. And those bills are for artides supplied by you ? 
— ^Yes, to Mr. Usher. 

4823. Are all those biUs entered in your books P — ^Yes, 
they were all paid on the same evening, as they were sent 
in the morning. 

4824. When were they paid P*-The same evening. 

4825. But what evening P — The evening of the dates of 
the bills. 

4826. Before the election P— Yes. 

4827. You know the total of your own bills, I suppose P 
— ^No, I don't now. 

4828. I make it out just 40Z. P— I don't know the 
total 

4829. There is two dozen rosettes for horses P — ^Yes. 

4830. Who ordered those p->I expect Mr. Usher did. 

4831. At 18«. a dozen?— Yes. 

4832. Is that the average price ? — Sometimes they are 
more than that, according to the size. I have sometimes 
made them as much as 2«. 6^. or Za. a rosette. Of course 
so many yards of ribbon as you put in adds to the 
expense. 



4833. Then there is 10 dozen at 9«., Al. IO9., were they 
for the horses ? — ^No. 

4834. For human beings then? — ^They were for voters. 

4835. The larger rosettes were for the horses P — 
Yes. 

4836. How much ribbon did you put in?— I could not 
say unless I saw them; perhaps five or six yards, or 
perhaps not more than four yards. 

4837. And in the smaller ones P — About two yards. 

4838. Two yards in those at 9«. a dozen P— Yes. 

4839. Was not that an unusual quantity to put into 
rosettes P — No, not to get any size ; sometimes they are 
larger than that. 

4840. (Mr. Boll.) Do you mean to say that there were 
two yards of ribbon in each rosette you made for the 
voters P — Yes, I expect there was ; perhaps more. 

4841. {Mr. Twm&r.) Do you know anything about it P 
— ^No, I don't make them. 

4842. {Mr. Jeune.) They were good big rosettes, I 
suppose P — Yes, a good size. 

4843. {Mr. Tv/mer.) What is this, "6 ps. ribbon, 36 
" yards at 12«. 9(2." P— -That is six pieces, and 36 yaids 
in each piece. 

•4844. What were they used forP— I don't know, 
Mr. Usher had them. I expect, for decorating the poles, 
or something of that kind. 

4845. You supplied them to Mr. Usher direct P— Yes 
I don't know what they were for. 



W.H. 

FraMin, 



M4 

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96 



SANDWICH ELECTION COMMISSION : 



W, a. 4846. '< Ditto, 54 pieoeB of cambrioat 8K a yard " P— 

Franklin, They were for flags. 

4847. Did they go to Mr. Usher P— Yes ; it all went to 

9 Oct 1880 . Mr. Usher. 

* 4848. For rosettes and everything P—Tes. 

4849. And yon employed people ont of your shop to 
make them P— Yes, and m the shop too. 

4850. On May 12th there are some more rosettes, five 
dozen at 10». P— Yes. 

4851. What is the difference between them and the 
others P — Probably they were made with a little wider 
ribbon. The ribbon is of different widths, bear in 
mind. 

4852. DidtheygotoMr. Usher too P— Yes, they went 
to Mr. Usher, too. 

4853. Then May 14th, 10 dozen rosettes, atlO«. ; then 
three dozen, at 12«. ; and six dozen, at90.~Yes. 

4854. How was it yon made a difference in the prioe p 
— ^According to the width of the ribbon. 

4855. Were yon ordered to make them different P — 
We were obliged to make them np according to the 
widths we had in stock ; we oonld not always get one 
uniform widili ; we had to get what we could. 

4856. Then there is a pair for horses, 3«. P — ^That is a 
very large pair. 

4857. Then, '** One piece of ribbon, Ss, 9i." Had you 
ever such an order as this before the election ? — Yes. 

4858. Such orders as these P — Yes, and much heavier 
than these. 

4859. WhenP— Of Mr. Worms. 

4860. You mean when Baron de Worms stood for the 
place P— Yes ; I took 64^. 

4861. You are a voter, of course P—Yes. 

4862. Have you been paid all P—Yes, all. I was paid 
on the same evening of the day the goods were had. 

4863. Have you received or paid any other monies 
with reference to the election P — No, except some por- 
traits I supplied to Mr. Roberts. 

4864. Those are the photographs we have heard of p — 
Yes. 



4865. Are you a photograplier P_My son is. 

4866. Hehad500?— Yee. 

4867. What did you charge per dozen for them? Were 
they cartes de viaitef — Yee, and some cabinets. 

4868. And what did you charge P— 10«. a dozen. 

4869. For cartes de visUe .^— Yes. 

4870. That is rather high, is it not P— No. 

4871. I don't wish to depreciate your son's work, of 
course p — They were all vignettes, and the London 
Stereoscopic Company wotdd charge 15«. a dozen. 

4872. {Mr. Holl.) What is the total amount of the 
charge for photographs P— 500 at 10«. a dozen ; it came 
to about 262. or 27^. 

4878. 262. or 272. for photographs of your son's and 
392. 10«. hd, to you also for rosettes and ribbons and 
cambric ? — ^Yes. 

4874. Is your son a voter P — Yee. 

4875. {Mr. Jeum.) You say, in the contest in 1874 
there was just as much expenditure in your shop for 
rosettes P — More. 

4876. Do you remember the contest in 1868 P There 
was a contest in 1868, was there not P—Yes. 

4877. Do you remember whether you had such a large 
order then P—Yes, of Mr. Capper, I think; quite as 
much— it was more. 

4878. Then, as far as vour ex|)erience goes, there were 

not more rosettes at this election than usual P Less 

than usual. Mr. Capper was much over 402. 

4879. Were the photographsphotographs of Mr. Roberts 
himself P—Yes. 

4880. What were they for — distribution among the 
voters P — Distribution among his friends and voters. 

4881. That was a novelty in this election, was it not P 
— ^It had been done before in Worms' case. 

4882. WasBaronde Worms photographed P—Yes. 

4883. And he was cireulated in the same way P— He 
was circulated in the same way, and Capper as weU, I 
believe. 



J. Ramett, 



John Bambll re-called and further examined. 



4884. {Mr, HolL) Your brother has told us that in the 
evening you requested him to make some flags P — Yes. 

4885. And he has told us that on the following morning 
a qualm had come over his conscience as to whether U 
was 1^^ or not P — Yes, he came and knocked me up, or 
at least he came to Imock me up, but I was out. 

4886. Tell us shortly what took place between you 
and him then P — He told me that he understood what I 
was doing was illegal, and I should get myself into 
trouble. I said, "I don't know; I have taken all my 
" instructions from Mr. Edwards ; but I will stop it and 
** have a consultation as soon as the rooms are open this 
** morning." I went to some of the boatmen and told 
them not to put up any more flags till they heard from 
me ; and siterwards I met Mr. Edwards and Mr. Come- 
wall and mentioned it to them, and Mr. Edwards said. 



** Oh, no ; Sir Julian don't mind spending money that 
" way ; it is acknowledged on both sides." That was 
the answer I got from Mr. Edwards. 

4887. And did you tell your brother that P—Yes, and 
I told him to go on as usual. 

4888. (Mr. Jeu/ne.) Did Mr. Edwards say that Sir Julian 
Gk>ldsmid had said it did not matter P— Yee, it was 
acknowledged on both sides. 

4889. And your brother was to go on P—Yes. 

{Mr. HoU.) That is all we have to ask you. 

{Mr. W. Eamell.) May I leave now, sir P 

{Mr. Holl.) Yes ; we only wanted you